Jill Marshall (00:00):

I would lean towards starting the conversation around aging with the parent, and it could start with, you know “I would love to know what does a good day look like for you right now, and what would a good day look like for you in five or 10 years?”

Jill Marshall (00:17):

And knowing that these conversations take time, it’s not solved in one. So, beginning the conversation, explaining you’re coming from a place of love and support, I think will pay dividends down the road.

Stephanie McCullough (00:32):

I like that point that it’s not all going to be done in one quick conversation. This is going to be an ongoing thing.

Jill Marshall (00:39):

And it’s not if you deal with these issues, it’s more when, so the planning of it is truly a gift.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:56):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:31):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:20):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:31):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:33):

Today, we’re talking to two very long-term friends of mine, Jill Juda Marshall and Steve Marshall. And the conversation addresses something that’s coming up so often with all my conversations with my friends, is dealing with aging parents or being aging individuals and making a plan for that.

Stephanie McCullough (02:52):

Jill and Steve have over four decades of combined experience spanning law, finance, real estate and elder care, and they formed a firm called Silver Path Consulting to provide trusted personalized guidance to help families navigate life’s important decisions. Both Jill and Steve have received a Certified Senior Advisor designation.

Stephanie McCullough (03:14):

Jill comes with executive leadership background and extensive experience in financial services and wealth management. Steve is a licensed attorney and real estate broker. Together, they offer unique insights and look at the practical aspects to develop comprehensive strategies to help families face the future. Let’s dive into our conversation with Jill and Steve.

Stephanie McCullough (03:38):

Steve and Jill Marshall, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Jill Marshall (03:42):

Hello.

Steve Marshall (03:43):

Thank you.

Stephanie McCullough (03:43):

Hey, can you tell us a bit about Silver Path Consulting, what you offer, and in the course of that, kind of the why, right. How did you come to the idea that this was a needed service?

Jill Marshall (03:55):

Sure. We offer a comprehensive approach to aging because we feel like there are so many factors that play into the wellbeing of seniors and it’s important to consider many of them. Tenny, they range from housing to finance, to family support, to creative living.

Jill Marshall (04:22):

Those are a few of them that we highlight because like I said, addressing any one in particular doesn’t necessarily solve for the range of issues that seniors are facing. And we started down this path having both had the experience of being the primary point of contact for our aging parents.

Steve Marshall (04:46):

It was a little more than being the primary contact. I managed the care and all aspects of both of my parents’ lives before they passed. That included a house at the beach and 24-hour care at the end for my mother, the legal issues around trustees and executors and all that stuff. And now, Jill is ironically doing the same thing now for her 85-year-old mother.

Steve Marshall (05:14):

So, I think that’s how it made sense to us that we saw the problem out there based on our personal experience, and then said, “Wait a minute, we can’t be the only people.” And we found out we are nowhere near the only people, because in speaking to our friends who are adult children of elderly parents, no one says, “It’s going great. We’re doing so well, and everything is just bright and shiny.”

Jill Marshall (05:40):

Well, I’ll share one more point in that it is a societal issue [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm]. So, that’s what we’re really starting to realize. And it’s no surprise if you think about the demographics at large that are taking place with the baby boomers of course, but you couple that with the advancements of modern science.

Jill Marshall (06:02):

And so, this period of time is the first where you might have three generations, possibly even four, all living at the same time. And so, you are literally having people who are 60-years-old, 70-years-old, maybe even caring for their parent. And there’s been a lot of talk about the sandwich generation [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm], which is for women in their forties and fifties who may have a child under 18 they’re caring for as well as their parent.

Jill Marshall (06:38):

But I think what I didn’t necessarily realize when I started to manage the care for my mother is that so many people are going through this for the first time [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right right]. So, there’s no playbook. And that’s really what we try to highlight, is you shouldn’t know how to do this, but we hope to help parents and their adult children navigate some of the complexities.

Stephanie McCullough (07:06):

Well, and I think while in the past, we might’ve had three or four generations (well, probably three alive) often live close to each other, and that’s not necessarily the case anymore. Certainly, most are not living in the same household.

Steve Marshall (07:19):

Very true. And just thinking a little bit about our backgrounds and you know what we bring to bear to the problem. I’m a licensed attorney and a licensed real estate broker, I spent most of my career in real estate development, so I do have a pretty good understanding of both the legal side of this and also, some of the issues around senior housing. I’ll let Jill tell you a little bit about her situation.

Steve Marshall (07:48):

But before we go off the other topic, you all know this as well as anybody, but this silver tsunami is real. I mean, it’s about 73 million people will be 65 by 2030. It’s something like 10,000 people a day turn 65. And it’s not like you’re living two more years like in 1945 when social security was set up, you’re going to live another 30 – good chance you’re going to live another 30 years after that.

Steve Marshall (08:19):

And sometimes, we like to talk about the fact that you’re not living longer, you’re actually dying longer, in some cases. It’s very, very expensive.

Jill Marshall (8:29):

Tenny, something which I’m sure you think about is with your clients that, yes, Steve just mentioned the term “dying longer,” but there’s— people are living very fulfilled lives as well. And that’s really the opportunity that we can help families with because not only is it for the person’s wellbeing, but I would argue society needs these seniors leaning in with their experience and knowledge and wisdom to give back to others as well.

Stephanie McCullough (09:07):

Yeah, it’s a huge untapped resource.

Kevin Gaines (09:10):

So, a theme that we constantly talk about on this podcast is as you age, as you enter retirement, you realize that you’re stuck with a lot of these unknowables. We know at some point we’re going to die, we don’t know when. We know we have all this money from our 401(k), but we got to make it last. And the list goes on and on.

Kevin Gaines (09:35):

So, does this idea of this comprehensive planning for both your parents as well as yourself, does that help create a lot more – not so much it doesn’t answer the questions, but it at least helps define the unknowables more.

Jill Marshall (09:56):

Yeah, Kevin, I’ve been doing some research. There was a book called Decisionscape, and it takes the analogy of decision-making and applies it to an artist. So, to your point, imagine you are sitting down to paint a picture, you don’t know really where you want to start.

Jill Marshall (010:20):

There’s the background, which are those unknowables, maybe you’re thinking about the housing or your legal situation, the degree to which your family and friends will be nearby, and you start to plot them out there, and then work backwards kind of towards the foreground.

Jill Marshall (10:43):

And that type of thinking of imagining the future and then working backward can actually be a little easier to manage than the reverse. I don’t know if that’s clear, but there are unknowables, and you just have to start with some assumptions about how they’re going to play out and what you want.

Steve Marshall (11:08):

Kevin, I think you just raised a good point, a good question, and that is how do these issues impact each other? This whole comprehensive growing old, and I think we’ll go to what you guys do first. You’re helping folks preserve their wealth, their assets, maybe grow it so they can use it for the remainder of their life.

Steve Marshall (11:30):

Well, they have decisions to make: how nicely do they want to live, right? Do they want to live in the best possible place ever or do they want to live in a modest situation, whether that’s at home or in a care facility? That’s going to impact their cashflow from now until the day they die. Do they want to leave money to their kids? Do they have kids who might have issues that are going to need some kind of care and maintenance?

Steve Marshall (11:55):

So, that conversation has to happen and that gets you maybe more onto the legal side. And then as far as do they have to sell their house in order to raise the funds necessary to go into the kind of continuing care retirement community?

Steve Marshall (12:10):

So, very quickly, they all seem to touch each other and have to be discussed at one time, or you’re just gonna– you’re going to end up missing something that’s going to come to bite you.

Stephanie McCullough (12:21):

I think that’s a good point because so many people don’t want to leave their home, right. They love their home, they’ve spent all this years making it just how they like it. They don’t want to leave, and yet they get more and more isolated if they’re unable to get around or drive themselves anymore.

Stephanie McCullough (12:35):

And then when I talk to people (my parents included) who moved to a retirement community, once they get there and get settled, oh my gosh, they’re super social and they’re part of this club and that club, and they’re going over to people’s apartments at 5:00 PM for a glass of wine before dinner.

Stephanie McCullough (12:49):

But you know, there’s so much going on and they didn’t really have an appreciation of the upside before they moved. And then you know they say that connections and intellectual stimulation is key to staying healthy longer.

Jill Marshall (13:05):

I love to hear that scenario, Tenny, because that is the ideal case for people who choose to go into the continuing care retirement communities because they get to partake in all of those activities. I’ll add though, that doesn’t necessarily happen [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right] . You can find people who just feel as isolated as ever because it’s a little bit like starting all over, building new friendships potentially.

Jill Marshall (13:36):

And moreover, they’ve lost a sense of self perhaps because they’ve moved. But on the flip side, regarding living at home, some people may find that that is where they are at their best and their strongest and they’re most secure, whereas others could feel isolated in the same four walls.

Jill Marshall (13:56):

So, there’s absolutely no ideal place for someone to be. And that’s where Steve and I talk a lot about the importance of asking the open-ended questions to your parents to really get a sense for where they will think they will thrive.

Stephanie McCullough (14:13Yeah!

So, how do you start a conversation with a family or with a older with a senior?

Steve Marshall (14:18):

Very carefully. And I say that half in jest, but a lot of the calls that we get, it’s about, “I’m really having trouble convincing mom that she needs help, right.” Because what we see is parents look at this as very much an existential threat to their life because once they start accepting this help, then they have lost that independence, and they know it’s not coming back.

Steve Marshall (14:51):

And so, I think for both parents and kids, it’s a grieving, there’s a grieving in the conversation itself. And so, it’s avoided a lot. You also have situations where folks might be entering into a little bit of dementia at that time, and maybe can’t process everything that’s being said or forget: “Mom, you remember we had that conversation we’re going to get you somebody to come in a couple hours?” “I never agreed to that. I never said that.” What do you do?

Steve Marshall (15:20):

Well, the answer is you probably should have had that conversation three or four years ago when they were sharp as a tack and could make their wishes known and help you. And we always say to parents, like to the senior, “You don’t want to be a burden to your kids, but you’re being a burden to your kids if you’re not taking this on now and having the conversation.”

Steve Marshall (15:43):

Because the parents don’t want to talk about it as much as the kids don’t want to talk about it because the parents don’t want to be a burden, and the kids don’t want to think that their parents are going to die sooner or later, or maybe sooner. So, it really becomes a difficult situation.

Jill Marshall (15:57):

But I will say the best way to approach it is with the term of active listening. So, you’re asking a lot of open-ended questions to try to understand what the senior desires. It really starts with what they want. And Atul Guwande wrote a book called Being Mortal, and in that book, he highlights the importance of this question of what does a good day look like to you?

Jill Marshall (16:25):

And I love that question, I’ve asked my mom that question. And it’s often a very simple answer of he writes about a patient who loved eating chocolate ice cream and watching football on TV, and he was happy with that type of existence.

Jill Marshall (16:47):

Others might say, “Well, I want to be surrounded with my family at least once a week.” And so then, but knowing that information can help the family prepare and build around that.

Stephanie McCullough (17:03):

And I would imagine some of the trade-offs because there’s probably at some point going to be trade-offs. But if you know what things are most important, does that help guide some decisions?

Jill Marshall (17:14):

That’s a good question, Tenny. A trade-off often will incorporate finances, right. That is really a key driver of how someone and where someone can live. So, being clear on that and often, the finances are fixed. And so, there’s only so much … we’ve had clients who are coming to these issues for the first time, and the awareness of the limited options is surprising.

Steve Marshall (17:53):

And I think too, this is where we really can help. We’re going to release hopefully, at some point soon, a report, a guide on making that choice between remaining and entering a continuing care retirement community. And I think what might surprise a lot of people is living at home is not necessarily cheaper.

Steve Marshall (18:14):

If you factor in all….. You’ve got to look at the house. Are you in two stories? Well, the stairs are no longer an option. Either you’re going to get a lift or you’re going to move the bedroom to the first floor. Then okay, well, how are you going to get groceries or run errands if you really shouldn’t be driving anymore?

Steve Marshall (18:31):

Well, now, you’re going to have to have some care come in. So, when you put those numbers – and by the way, you’re still paying property maintenance, property insurance, property tax [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]  year after year after year. The numbers then start to look a little more close than you would probably imagine when you see those eye-bulging monthly costs of assisted living and personal care.

Kevin Gaines (18:56):

How often do you have that type of conversation regarding housing and the cost of making the current residence livable versus making the move? And how much of an impact does that have once you break everything down for people?

Jill Marshall (19:14):

Kevin, the majority of people who have reached out to us are the adult children, commonly more often the females who are concerned about where their mother is going to live. So, it’s very common that we’re having the conversation about where they’re going to live and what they can afford.

Jill Marshall (19:36):

And we’ve also had a few clients reach out aware that they may not be able to afford their future care given the home that they are living in and the liquid assets available. But then it becomes a little bit of a worksheet exercise where if you want to be fair to compare apples to apple, you run down the projections of what the cost to maintain the home.

Jill Marshall (20:08):

You know, you think through 5 years and even 15 years if you’re thinking about staying in that home for that period of time, versus the CCRC, and accounting for the entry fee. So, that is something that we help families with when they’re trying to make that decision.

Steve Marshall (20:28):

And the thing we start with, Kevin, always is the house safe [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right], because you know whatever it’s going to cost or the trade-offs of a facility is it’s going to be safe. Whereas, especially when the kids don’t live locally, you’re not sure.

Steve Marshall (20:43):

So, what we recommend is you start with an occupational therapist coming in, inspecting the house, looking at all of the possible, for the most part, fall risk is what you’re looking for, because the numbers on that are staggering about how many people fall each year, how many people die from it, how many bad outcomes there are from falls.

Steve Marshall (21:02):

So, you make sure that if you’re going to stay mom, the house has to be looked at and we got to make sure it’s safe. And if you have to spend some money to widen hallways or change the height of shelves in the kitchen or something, you’re going to have to do that.

Steve Marshall (21:18):

Tenny, that goes right back to what you said, what are the trade-offs here? You can’t..Folks can’t have everything because there’s too much at stake. And I think we’re also we’re adding value because we don’t have a dog in the fight, so to speak, right. We are a neutral third party and we can tell a senior in front of their kids, “Listen, they’re just really worried about you, but they’re also worried about an outcome that no one is going to like with you in a nursing home bedridden for the next 10 years because you fell.”

Steve Marshall (21:50):

And I think that does get through to people because it’s not the youngest daughter, she’s always complaining and telling me what I should do. We had that situation, Jill, with the one couple, they were pretty adamant they wanted to stay in their home, but we went over and talked through some of these issues, and then kind of took them through a few different local places keying on what their wants and needs were.

Steve Marshall (22:19):

The wife wanted to make sure she’d get to religious service every week. The husband wanted to make sure that he could sit with somebody and watch the Eagles down in the lobby (little Philadelphia reference there, go birds.”

Stephanie McCullough (22:31):

Go birds.

Steve Marshall (22:32):

Hmm! Yeah, thank you. But they really did a 180. And I really think that it was because it was us and not the three kids. The kids were wonderful too. They had their best interest so much at heart and wanted to do and love them to death. But it’s just a different dynamic when it’s your kids.

Stephanie McCullough (22:50):

That’s a really good point about the value of bringing in someone. Not only are you, you know experts who have done all the research and walked not only your own families, but other people through it before, so you have the expertise that maybe a family approaching this for the first time does not – but you are that neutral party that can come in and play a role that a family member might not be able to. I hadn’t thought about that piece of it.

Jill Marshall (23:17):

And I will reiterate, it really does start with understanding what the seniors want. So, even if the adult children may choose to hire us, we are driven by the senior’s wellbeing because ultimately, they want autonomy [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. But it’s also our job to help them understand the safety risks, for example, if that’s what is the concern [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Steve Marshall (23:48):

Yeah, going back to the comment of this being the first sort of generation to go through this, we sometimes ask the question, “Well, what did your parents do with their parents? How did they manage the situation?” And a lot of times they’ll say, “My grandfather was dead by the time he was 70 or 74, he was not around.” So, this issue of living another 20, 30 years, it’s novel and it’s scary.

Stephanie McCullough (24:18):

Well, and honestly, I think my parents moved because my mother took care of her mother-in-law, and moving her from Kansas to Pennsylvania kicking and screaming, and getting her settled and dealing with her health issues while my father was working, and then her own father as well.

Stephanie McCullough (24:33):

So, she lived through it, and she said she didn’t want to put that on her kids. So, I appreciate it. But you’re right, you know that personal experience, or even if it’s a friend, if you see it up close, you can see what a … I don’t want to say mess it can turn into, but how sticky it can get without the planning.

Steve Marshall (24:54):

Absolutely.

Jill Marshall (24:55):

And just one point about that, the role modeling that the adult children are doing, even in that case, caring for their parent – Steve went to a lecture yesterday where that was brought up, and I’ve been doing some research about that, is say for us in our fifties and sixties, how we are caregiving for our parents is role modeling for our children, you know how it can be done.

Jill Marshall (25:25):

So, that’s another advantage of stepping in to do this planning [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right]. It just helps the whole situation, the senior’s wellbeing, the family dynamics, reducing stress, and even setting up future generations [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Steve Marshall (25:43):

And America has not set itself up culturally to really help folks with this. No matter what your political affiliation is, it really is just too much in terms of the amount of money that is required and the amount of hands-on care, whether that’s a kid or a kid helping financially or whatever.

Steve Marshall (26:05):

So, to model this, we think it’s nothing less than trying to change the paradigm at a time when it looks like … it sometimes makes us very nervous because we look at those numbers and how these people are just coming through right now and getting older and older, and not hearing anybody talk from a policy level about anything other than making cuts.

Steve Marshall (26:30):

And we all understand it’s ridiculously expensive, and we want people to make a living wage and make sure the care is sufficient, but at the same time, there’s going to be some very hard choices in this country about how we approach this and what has to change, or we’re going to just see millions of old people living on the streets [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right.

Kevin Gaines (26:54):

There’s a trend of more couples not having kids for whatever reason. How has…When you have clients that don’t have kids versus the kids come to you, say, “You help us talk to mom and dad,” are those conversations different? And if they are, how?

Jill Marshall (27:15):

Yeah, there was an article in the New York Times, I think it was last fall, Kevin, around the solo senior and the plan-

Steve Marshall (27:28):

Woman, I think, right, Jill? It was focused on a solo woman because they’re much more apt to be in that situation in terms of longevity and everything.

Stephanie McCullough (27:37):

Right! We outlive the guys.

Steve Marshall (27:40):

Lucky you.

Stephanie McCullough (27:42):

I don’t know.

Jill Marshall (27:44):

But it is even more, I would say, perhaps isolating Kevin because they just have less support. Maybe they have a spouse, but not having children who they can lean on to help air and make some of these decisions. So, the alternative is often to lean on friends, even neighbors, and to plan as much as possible so that you’re in a place that is secure.

Steve Marshall (28:18):

I would say folks who are without kids more or less want to plan and discuss this stuff than the people with adult children who kind of feel like it’s just going to get itself worked out.

Stephanie McCullough (28:32):

That’s a good point. Yeah! I’ll point people back to our episode with Carol Marak where she had taken care of both her parents and then when they passed away, she kind of had this realization of, “Wait, who’s going to do this for me?”

Stephanie McCullough (28:43):

She’s unmarried, no kids, and she went through a several year period of planning for all the different factors of her life, moving into a community with you know people from multiple generations where she could walk to the grocery store or walk to the doctor’s office.

Stephanie McCullough (28:55):

Right. She  like took all this into account to plan for herself, and now, she helps other people do the same thing. But it is something you got to think about, who is the default caregiver if there’s nobody else in the household.

Stephanie McCullough (29:09):

So, we’ve talked a lot about housing and where to live, but there’s obviously a lot of other pieces to this. What are the things that you think people overlook most often?

Jill Marshall (29:18):

I will say people tend to underestimate the importance of information management [Stephanie McCullough overcross: ohh] . And what I mean by that is having an organized, ideally centralized (but there’s many ways you could do it) place to capture critical information ranging from bank accounts, financial advisor names and numbers, what institutions do you work with? What are your passwords?

Jill Marshall (29:46):

An inordinate amount of time, a crazy amount of time is spent hunting down passwords, especially with two factor authentication [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]  where the second six-digit code goes to the parent’s phone and they’re in another state.

Jill Marshall (30:03):

So, I bought (this is a little bit of a plug where there’s no affiliation) something called a NOK box, it’s called Next of Kin Box, and it’s actually a paper form of organization of a file cabinet that has a range of things. Everything from, like I said, the financial information to your pets and their vet, and what medications they’re on, what is your garage code, where are your important papers.

Jill Marshall (30:35):

But having that in a place where you were–your power of attorney knows where it is [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah], is really helpful if someone has to step in the event of a crisis and make decisions quickly.

Stephanie McCullough (30:51):

And I feel like half the time I’m talking to you know our compatriots, friends from high school, from college, just from out there in the world, half the people I talk to are dealing with this in some way or other, whether mom or dad is struggling or sick or they’re being executor or aunts, it right, it could be anyone. But having to step in when you don’t know where all this stuff is, is a big headache.

Jill Marshall (31:13):

And Steve can speak to some of the important legal documents, which are critically important to have them ready.

Stephanie McCullough (31:23):

Yeah, please.

Steve Marshall (31:25):

Yeah. I think folks surprisingly do overlook that kind of out of sight, out of mind, “Oh yeah, I put that will together about 20 years ago. Your father had a friend who was an attorney, and we did that.” “Well, where is it?” “It’s in a file somewhere, I don’t know.” Well, it’s an original signature?” “I guess so.” Well, if it’s not, it’s not going to be a probatable will.

Steve Marshall (31:47):

And so, in Pennsylvania, in every state, you need an original signature, and usually, the attorney does keep those in their files. But if it’s 20 years and you’ve lost touch or you’ve moved, or how about if a son gets divorced or somebody has an autistic or a special needs child in the interim?

Steve Marshall (32:08):

So, that is so important to have an updated, legally enforceable will. It doesn’t have to be that complicated, but just the fact to have it because you don’t want the state being your executor and deciding where your money goes.

Steve Marshall (32:23):

And then of course, the power of attorney, the durable power of attorney, and we’re seeing that much more. And actually, I used it, my mother was (I hope I don’t get in trouble for this) of sound mind up until the very end, but about five years before she died, she had no interest in paying bills or writing checks anymore. So, it wasn’t like she was incapacitated, but I just took over all of her bill pay and all of her finances. And so, of people live-

Stephanie McCullough (32:51):

And you could do that because …

Steve Marshall (32:54):

Because I had a valid power of attorney. So you know, I had to go to the bank and get on the signature card in order to do that. Then when she passed, my brother and I were co-executors and we both had single signature authority. But the power of attorney, I think, you’re going to see more and more folks use it for longer and longer.

Stephanie McCullough (33:16):

And could you just back up and remind us what exactly the power of attorney does and says, and what form it takes? Is it a piece of paper you carry around?

Steve Marshall (33:24):

It is a piece of paper, and it’s a powerful tool that you have to be careful with because when they talk about it being durable, it means it’s not a limited power of attorney, which some people might remember or understand from closing on a house when you couldn’t be at the closing table, you gave your realtor, you gave an attorney a limited power of attorney.

Steve Marshall (33:44):

But once that transaction was completed, your powers were gone. In the case of a durable power of attorney, it’s just ongoing and it basically allows you to step into the grantee’s shoes for everything financial or legal. You can contract on their behalf, you can take a loan, you can pay their bills, really everything. So, obviously, there could be some chance for fraud or malfeasance. So, you want to be very careful about who you make, and maybe you do want to make two people the power of attorney.

Steve Marshall (34:20):

Now you know, a lot of times, it is your adult children, and it really is a case by case thing on who you choose. I mean, you could hire somebody, you could get an attorney to be your power of attorney, but if you do have adult children and you think that they’ll do a good job, and maybe one of them has more experience, might be more business, financial-oriented, maybe you set it so the other one is getting regular updates from the sibling. You can do it with a Google Doc. Just every time something happens, make sure that that sibling is notified.

Steve Marshall (34:57):

And we think that’s important generally. Unless there’s a real reason not to, it’s good to give everybody some kind of a role based on what their strengths are because that’s really when things can go south when one child feels like they were left out or there was some kind of asymmetrical inheritance or something like that. And I’m sure you all have talked a little bit about that in other forums, but that’s two of the three.

Steve Marshall (35:22):

And then the third is the healthcare power of attorney, which basically allows you to make all decisions for someone who is incapacitated. And that’s a little easier in some sense right  because it’s not durable. It’s not like you’re really doing anything until that person is literally unable to speak for themselves and say what they want to happen.

Steve Marshall (35:41):

Now, you certainly want to know what they want in terms of their care and treatment, and that’s where an advanced directive comes in or a living will, where you’re saying things like, “I do not want to be resuscitated unless whatever has caused my unconsciousness is a reversible event.”

Steve Marshall (36:04):

And we can talk about how the horrendous outcomes with performing CPR on an elderly person are. And so, you have to be careful about that stuff. But those are the big three, again, along with a living will or an advanced directive.

Stephanie McCullough (36:19):

And then of course, making sure everybody knows where they are right, and making sure people know that they have been assigned this role, and where they can get the documents in the moment.

Jill Marshall (36:30):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (36:31):

Back to your information management, right, Jill?

Jill Marshall (36:33):

Yeah, and I’ll add a component about the family and say, expand it to the concept of sibling. And Steve comes from a family of six children, I have two sisters, and he mentioned encouraging everyone to have a role, and he was speaking about that I think more from the legal or the healthcare power of attorney, but it also could play out of, you may be the person who is more inclined philanthropically.

Jill Marshall (37:08):

So, maybe hypothetically, you’re going to be organizing some charity or gift giving for say, the matriarch or the patriarch if that is part of the legacy. Or maybe you love throwing a good party, so you’re the one that family organizes the family reunion. So, there can be different types of roles for different types of people, but just being as transparent as possible.

Jill Marshall (37:37):

And we do find that having some centralized way to share key updates, even if it’s medical as well, of mom had this appointment and this was the takeaway from the eye doctor. Just sharing that you know in a shared location is helpful and streamlines communication.

Stephanie McCullough (38:00):

Yeah, absolutely. Because even if somebody goes to the appointment with them, but nobody else knows what happened, I can see how that could be problematic.

Jill Marshall (38:09):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (38:10):

I mean, it’s one of these things we all have to face, and I appreciate your focus on planning for it. I mean, I can’t tell you how many clients I’ve talked to – one of the things we have to do when we’re doing our financial planning projections is make a guess about how long we might live, which is ridiculous and still necessary.

Stephanie McCullough (38:25):

And people say, “Oh, I don’t want to live that long.” Okay, that’s nice. You might not want to, but someone-

Kevin Gaines (38:32):

You may not have a choice.

Stephanie McCullough (38:33):

It could easily be you. I think about our one client’s mother who when I met her, she was 99 and she told me she did not want to live to be a hundred, and she died last year at 104, right. So, one of us is going to live to be 116, I’m telling you.

Kevin Gaines (38:38):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (38:50):

I have an unfair question.

Jill Marshall (38:52):

Yes, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (38:54):

Primarily because it’s still recent information still coming out, the information we have may not even be accurate, we don’t know.

Kevin Gaines (39:01):

Gene Hackman – I’ll phrase it this way to try to make it a little bit more fair: what are some of your initial thoughts as far as what maybe what could have gone differently or again, hypothetically, where were the gaps?

Jill Marshall (39:19):

As I understand it, his wife appeared to die first from a virus that could have been caught from a rodent, and then he may have died a week later maybe trying to get out of the house for help, or maybe he was disoriented, unclear. But as I think of that situation, I think about how having daily check-ins with a family member could be very helpful.

Jill Marshall (39:52):

Now, I’m imagining that his close family and friends would’ve assumed that the wife was completely able because she was so much younger. But that would be what my thought is. And we have talked to clients who have a protocol, if you will, across the siblings of someone’s calling mom every day, and even, someone’s going to visit her at least once a month.

Jill Marshall (40:21):

So, those are types of things that could help, Kevin. And then maybe the other point I’ll make is there is technology that is coming into play that’s helpful in homes where they it’s all private, but they’re able to track movement. And if there is any cause for concern, an alert would go to a medical alert, and they can come check on the home. That would be another way to mitigate the risk.

Steve Marshall (40:54):

And I wonder, Kevin, well, a couple of things, I am surprised that apparently, he had advanced stage Alzheimer’s. So! He was probably very impaired at that point, why he didn’t have some kind of a monitoring system, even with a 63-year-old wife who was taking care of him.

Steve Marshall (41:13):

And then I know he had older children from a previous marriage, I believe, whether there was some kind of a split there and he was no longer as in touch with them, and this was kind of a freak thing. I mean, I think everyone assumed it was some kind of tawdry murder, suicide or something like that.

Steve Marshall (41:34):

But you’re so vulnerable as someone with Alzheimer’s that you really do … hindsight’s 2020, certainly, I think everyone now would think about she shouldn’t have been just his only caregiver if that was what was going on.

Stephanie McCullough (41:51):

Right! It kind of points out the need for planning.

Steve Marshall (41:54):

Yes, it does. And it also shows how cruel fate can be, right? I mean, she could have slipped on a floor, and it would’ve been the exact same scenario.

Kevin Gaines (42:02):

Exactly.

Steve Marshall (42:04):

Which sadly, it happens to a lot of people, but again, not with a 99-year-old husband who’s not doing well.

Stephanie McCullough (42:12):

Well, and it makes me think back to your point earlier, Steve, about the silver tsunami going on. Do each of us need to get to know our older neighbors and figure out is there a way we can be checking on or at least know, or make sure I have the phone number of their nearest kin or their power of attorney. So, if I see something weird going on, I can alert because there are more people aging not around the corner from their family.

Jill Marshall (42:40):

I love that takeaway, Tenny, for people to reach out to their elderly neighbors and say, “Hey, I care about you. What is the closest contact telephone number, just so I have it?”

Stephanie McCullough (42:52):

Yeah. And we had Kathy Stokes from the AARP, she’s their lead on fraud and financial fraud, but a lot of fraud happens against older folks. So, the more communication and transparency, back to your point, Jill, and also communication and awareness that we can have, I think the better we’re all going to be because it is important to watch out for our neighbors, you know. We’re not just in this life alone.

Jill Marshall (43:18):

I use the phrase peace of mind all the time, but I feel like that is really what we’re all kind of grappling for at this point. And I wanted to share Tenny that some great peace of mind, I now have from preventing fraud is that I have frozen my credit with the major credit agencies [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]

Jill Marshall (43:47):

So, that’s a pretty easy fix. Probably takes an hour [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right], but I must get at least once a week if not more, something that looks like pry in my email. And I know I’m going to be vulnerable and open myself up one of these days, but at least knowing my accounts are frozen [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right] makes me feel better.

Stephanie McCullough (44:06):

And maybe I need to encourage my parents to freeze their credit.

Jill Marshall (44:11):

Do it.

Steve Marshall (44:12):

I think that’s great–that’s one of the things we recommend, and then you just explain, it’s completely reversible. If you ever have to go get a loan or anything, you just unfreeze it  [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right]. It’s all done online.

Stephanie McCullough (44:23):

So, as we wrap up, can you give our listeners one tip or takeaway that they could do, whether they have older parents themselves or whether they’re worried about their own plan of aging or someone in their lives. What’s one good action step besides the freezing the credit that they can do to kind of start down this road?

Steve Marshall (44:44):

I would go back to checking on the safety of the house. That always is worrisome, especially if the parent is in another location and the kids you know aren’t local and can’t check in because you don’t know what they’ve been doing to the house: “Oh, I found this beautiful throw rug and I put it down in the kitchen or something,” and then it’s a tripping hazard.

Steve Marshall (45:02):

So, I think that’s an easy one. It’s probably a couple hundred dollars to bring an occupational therapist in. And you know those people … I’ve had a lot of physical therapy in my life, and I just find those people to be very genuine, very caring, and who knows, maybe you have a relationship with somebody who can come and give some physical therapy or just be some kind of a resource for the parent. But starting with a home inspection I think is really important.

Stephanie McCullough (45:33):

Good one. How about you, Jill?

Jill Marshall (45:35):

Yeah, I love that Steve highlighted the safety of the home, that’s critical. I would lean towards starting the conversation around aging with the parent, and it could start with you know, “I would love to know what does a good day look like for you right now? And what would a good day look like for you in 5 or 10 years?”

Jill Marshall (45:58):

And knowing that these conversations take time, it’s not solved in one. So, beginning the conversation, knowing that, and explaining you’re coming from a place of love and support, I think will pay dividends down the road.

Stephanie McCullough (46:14):

I like that point, that it’s not all going to be done in one quick conversation. This is going to be an ongoing thing.

Jill Marshall (46:22):

And it’s not if you deal with these issues, it’s more when, so the planning of it is truly a gift.

Stephanie McCullough (46:33):

I mean, we’ve said that in so many contexts, right, the planning is a gift, even if it feels unpleasant to dip your toe into it.

Steve Marshall (46:41):

Right! And that’s that’s, so important. I’m reminded of a line by George Bernard Shaw who said, the problem with communication is that there is typically an illusion that it is taking place as opposed to you think it took place, but it didn’t.

Stephanie McCullough (46:58):

Right, checking for agreement or for mutual understanding.

Steve Marshall (47:03):

Right.

Stephanie McCullough (47:04):

Jill and Steve, how do people find you if they want to follow and learn more?

Jill Marshall (47:08):

Thank you for asking. Our website is yoursilverpath.com, and we are called Silver Path Consulting, and we have a Facebook page and LinkedIn page.

Steve Marshall (47:25):

Both of our numbers are right on our website, so just pick up the phone, give us a call. We do a 15-minute free initial consultation to see what you need, and we could take it from there.

Stephanie McCullough (47:39):

And to be clear, you’re in Pennsylvania, but you can help folks who are not local, correct?

Jill Marshall (47:43):

That’s right. We are happy to engage virtually.

Stephanie McCullough (47:47):

Excellent. Jill, Steve, thank you so much for being with us.

Jill Marshall (47:50):

This was so fun. Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Tenny.

Kevin Gaines (47:54):

Thank you.

Steve Marshall (47:55):

Thank you, Kevin and Tenny, really enjoyed it.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (48:00):

Tenny, what was your biggest takeaway from today’s meeting?

Stephanie McCullough (48:05):

My biggest takeaway is I need to remind people that I have two names in the world. My nickname that I used all through school, meaning high school when I knew Steve and college when I knew Jill, is Tenny. And my professional name that I have used since that time is Stephanie. So, yes.

Kevin Gaines (48:23):

This is a big subject, and we’ve talked about pieces of this in past episodes [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right], Stephanie, and I’m glad we had somebody come on that talks about it more on a holistic or omnibus level. But they actually hit points that we’ve hit before, which to me, says this is really freaking important stuff [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right.

Kevin Gaines (48:48):

Having a support system in place  [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. For most of us, it’ll be family, but for me and my wife, we don’t have kids [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup], and our dogs don’t have opposable thumbs.

Stephanie McCullough (49:01):

The dogs can’t be power of attorney.

Kevin Gaines (49:03):

Exactly. We have to understand the support dynamics probably even more. But what if you’re estranged from your other family or your kids, they love you, but God bless them, they’re going to have a hard time with it maybe emotionally or again, just distance. They live on the other side of the country. They can do some stuff, but they can’t do everything.

Stephanie McCullough (49:34):

And they might have their hands full with their own lives and other things going on. So, yeah, I mean, as we have mentioned, right the doing the planning and thinking it through ahead of time, and then not keeping it to yourself, like talking to others.

Stephanie McCullough (49:52):

But I appreciate how Steve was talking about the fact there could easily be a grieving component to the conversation, and we have to make space for that and acknowledge it, and that’s okay, right. There are going to be emotions to talking about facing aging and moving towards the end of our lives, and the changes that might be required, the upsetting things that could happen, right. Let’s make room for the grief.

Stephanie McCullough (50:00):

And Jill’s point about, it’s not going to be just one quick conversation and then you’re all wrapped up, right. It’s an ongoing thing to do, which also is kind of a relief because you don’t have to tackle it all at once. There’s a whole bunch of different pieces, and I appreciated their points about where to start.

Stephanie McCullough (50:37):

What I like about their approach is that they’re tackling all the different pieces together, and I think you know they’ll bring in different experts, if need be, but they’re not just being the kidney doctor that doesn’t know what the rest of your body is doing, right. They’re trying to take the holistic view.

Kevin Gaines (50:55):

And I think that’s a really … it’s like how we describe ourselves as being heading up or being the quarterback of your financial team as far as financial advisor, your estate planner, your CPA, having somebody help you understand the elder issues.

Stephanie McCullough (51:14):

The big picture view.

Kevin Gaines (51:15):

Exactly, you know. Somebody who can say, “Well, have you thought about talking to somebody for this?” Or let’s have this conversation, and if we need to go into more in depth, here are some people that can help you with that. And I think that can serve can be a big help for many of us.

Stephanie McCullough (51:34):

And I’ll say that I’ve seen people who think, “Oh, we should just be able to deal with this inside the family, or we should be able to deal with it ourselves,” the shoulds. As opposed to there’s value in bringing in an impartial third-party expert team who’s done it before and probably can get you from here to there more quickly. But also, they have less emotional stake in the conversation, which is a benefit I hadn’t thought of until this conversation.

Kevin Gaines (52:04):

That’s a really good way to think about it. I also liked the Gene Hackman question, not just out of personal ego, because I was the one who asked it, but too many times we see stories about celebrities as they get older or when they die, mistakes they make with their estate planning or arrangements. And some of us enjoy that stuff, “Ha-ha they screwed up.”

Kevin Gaines (52:28):

But at the same time, I think those can remind you of what can be important, but also here’s people with a lot more resources than most of us have, and they still made mistakes, or they got unlucky [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. So, not only can we learn from that, but also, I’d like to think it takes some pressure off of us. It’s like very few people are going to get this stuff right.

Stephanie McCullough (52:52):

Correct.

Kevin Gaines (52:52):

Entirely.

Stephanie McCullough (52:53):

Yep. But to quote Jill, the planning is a gift.

Kevin Gaines (52:57):

Yes.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (52:59):

Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (53:03):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (53:06):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (53:21):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.