Stephanie McCullough (00:00):

Quoting from a recent report by the Stanford Center on Longevity.

“The widespread lack of forward-looking planning has vexed retirement planners and researchers for many years. Many problems in later years could have been prevented with planning ahead.

Too many people put off making important decisions only to find themselves later in a serious crisis with limited options. Our research identified interventions and messaging to help people anticipate future challenges and be proactive to address these challenges.”

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:45):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:20):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:09):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia this is Take Back Retirement with Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:20):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:21):

So, you know we had to dive into this study. We get all excited and jump up and down when we read a study introduction like that. So, specifically the name of the study is called Disconnected: Reality versus Perception in Retirement Planning. Hello, we love retirement planning.

Kevin Gaines (02:43):

And the best thing about this report is it gets into a lot of the, what I would say, initial hangups that people have. It’s like, “I don’t want to start this because …” or “Yeah, it’s not my thing.” But what I think it also does a good job of is calling out us financial professionals. Saying, “You guys are talking about the wrong stuff.”

Kevin Gaines (03:14):

And as we’ll talk about later, again, us financial professionals, get called out for spending time talking about investments with clients only instead of talking about the bigger picture. And it’s created a situation where most people thinking about retirement planning are only thinking about investments and savings.

Stephanie McCullough (03:39):

And as we talked about before, it’s important, but there are so many other things to consider or at least be aware of and I think that does (and well, you and I have been talking about this forever) – it’s a huge disservice to only talk about literally the dollars.

Stephanie McCullough (03:56):

Well, there’s a lot of decisions to be made. And the study calls it – they say that we must independently navigate an increasingly complex set of decisions that have significant implications on financial wellbeing later in life. I mean, even just that kind of makes it feel heavy and like I’d rather go make some cookies or scrub the toilets than face this stuff.

Kevin Gaines (04:21):

You got cookies over there, Stephanie?

Stephanie McCullough (04:22):

No, I do not have any cookies, but it’s heavy. These are big decisions. These are complex decisions, which is why we are bringing you the Takeback Retirement Podcast and have been for the last 90 some episodes to try to demystify some of this stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (04:40):

I like that this survey really takes kind of this holistic approach and looks at the human aspects of the planning and why aren’t people doing this planning. This planning could really help them in the long run, why aren’t we doing it? And it points out that human beings have a difficult time envisioning longer lives.

Stephanie McCullough (04:59):

I have quoted this before, and I will quote it until the day I die, but years ago, I got to hear Laura Carstensen, who was the founding director of the Stanford Center on Longevity, the group that did this study. And she said, “Medical science has given us an additional, what, 20, 30 years of life. Isn’t it interesting that we chose to put them on the end?” We only made older age longer. We didn’t make middle age longer. We didn’t make young longer. We made old stuff longer.

Stephanie McCullough (05:33):

So, it is difficult to envision that we might live this long. Even when we talk with clients about life expectancy, they’re like, “Wait, what? I don’t want to live to 98. I don’t want to live to 102.” Well, somebody’s going to, but it is difficult for our brains to do that future long-range planning.

Kevin Gaines (05:51):

Yeah, and Stephanie, frankly, it’s a mindset that we haven’t adjusted – to your point, we haven’t adjusted for the longer life expectancy in our own thinking. It’s, “Oh, I’m in my fifties, I’m approaching retirement. I’m in my sixties, I got to retire.”

Stephanie McCullough (06:12):

Is it really realistic to “retire at 65” anymore, and then have your savings support you for the next 30 or more years? That’s another issue as we have addressed several times.

Kevin Gaines (06:27):

There’s always another issue it seems like, as we talk about these things.

Stephanie McCullough (06:33):

The other interesting point this study makes, they say most pre-retirees and retirees need and want help with the critical retirement decisions they face, but they’re not always certain where to find it. And they don’t always seek it out if they do know where to find it. So, hint, hint, here we are.

Kevin Gaines (06:54):

So, one of the survey questions that they asked people who are both approaching retirement and already in retirement. What would you like help from your financial professional with? And most of them focus on dollars.

Kevin Gaines (07:13):

Number one, determining an investment strategy. Two, developing a strategy for withdrawal from savings, which admittedly is huge. As well as savings for retirement. Something tells me that’s more of the pre-retirees into retirees’ concern, when to start Social Security. And these are first and foremost in people’s minds when talking with their financial professional.

Kevin Gaines (07:40):

But Stephanie, I wonder, is that really the biggest concerns people have as opposed to the concerns they think a financial professional can help them with?

Stephanie McCullough (07:51):

Yeah, like you said, the industry kind of has conditioned people to think that that’s what we do. But the other piece is on here, and I appreciate that the survey made the list and then had people check them off, as opposed to making people come up with it on their own. They point out, estimating how much you’ll spend each year in retirement. That’s not easy.

Stephanie McCullough (08:12):

And we’re guessing, and it’s okay (see our previous episode) – having a plan for unexpected events such as health or care issues, needing to provide care for someone else, needing care for yourself. Needing to accept an adult child and their family back into your household. There’s all kinds of different things that can come up.

Stephanie McCullough (08:31):

And then of course, the various benefits. You mentioned Social Security, but there’s Medicare also. Even determining obviously when to retire, but also where to retire. What are you going to do with your home? Are you going to stay in it? Are you going to downsize? Are you going to move? All those things.

Kevin Gaines (08:51):

And the biggest issue I have with the results of this survey is the questions that are at the bottom for this particular question, Stephanie, is I think some of the more important questions, and while we cannot answer them for you, we could get the conversation started to get you starting to think about them.

Kevin Gaines (09:18):

The role your family would play if you can’t take care of yourself. Or to phrase it a different way, what is your plan if you start having issues with daily living? Here’s a big one – visualizing what retirement will be like. I mean, literally, Stephanie, we just did an episode talking about that.

Kevin Gaines (09:44):

And as we said in that one (and for the record, that’s the five crucial questions to ask yourself episode), that should be the starting point of your retirement planning journey, is this visualization. Because if you don’t know what you want to do, then how do you know how much you need to save? You may have enough saved, you may not, but you need to have a starting point before you can start asking these dollar questions, if you will.

Stephanie McCullough (10:14):

Even the question of estimating your life expectancy. Because many people say, “Oh, I don’t want to live that long.” But that doesn’t mean you might not, and of course, we can’t know what your life expectancy is, but we can kind of think about the percentage likelihood, like what are the odds that you might live to your late nineties? What are the odds that you might live beyond that? And then how do we plan for that possibility and make it potentially less scary, at least financially.

Stephanie McCullough (10:48):

There’s a lot of questions, and 6 out of 10 respondents felt they should have done more planning than they had done. And then disturbingly, here’s another stat that really hit me: 72% of the people in the survey reported that they relied on their own instincts in making these decisions.

Stephanie McCullough (11:11):

Now, we’ve talked before about behavioral finance and the science proving that human beings are bad at money. I didn’t say you listener are bad at money. Human beings, all of us, our brains are wired to make financial mistakes. So, our instincts are not necessarily the best way to go on these things. That made me a little bit nervous.

Kevin Gaines (11:35):

Yeah. And to clarify, they say your own instincts, they’re saying you’re relying on your gut because other sources are webcasts or books, TV and radio, friends, whatever. But sources of information, good or bad, or the other instincts literally is, you’re just winging it.

Stephanie McCullough (11:59):

Right, that’s how I take it. Hopefully, it’s your own educated, thoughtful decision-making. But I took it as just kind of gut.

Kevin Gaines (12:10):

Yes. One of the issues in this section that the survey highlights is (this gets back to my complaint on the previous question, Stephanie) it says, many pre-retirees and retirees have limited view of retirement planning, just focusing on saving for retirement and reducing debt, both of which are very important, let’s not pretend otherwise. But there is so much more that should and needs to be considered.

Stephanie McCullough (12:43):

And to that point, that can feel heavy: “Oh, there’s so much more, that’s a lot, I’m going to push it off and do something more fun right now.” There are barriers to taking action. I like that this survey was trying to get at why are people not doing this planning. And points out that when human beings face complex decisions, the natural reaction is to postpone or to kind of take shortcuts. Procrastinate as long as possible, or kind of take some shortcuts on it.

Stephanie McCullough (13:14):

So, they detail several real and perceived barriers that stop people from doing the planning and making the decisions. One is that the decisions are complex, beyond most people’s skills and experience. We haven’t learned this stuff, nobody taught us about money. This is the first time we’re going through it, so we don’t know how to do it, which impedes our confidence for anybody in making these decisions.

Kevin Gaines (13:42):

To that point that we have all these scary images of the unknown, and quite frankly, the press doesn’t always help either. It’s not hard to find stories of, “Oh, Americans are unprepared for retirement,” or “There’s a lot of anxiety about retirement.” and there is.

Kevin Gaines (14:02):

But there was a recent survey, and I found this really interesting, saying, yes, people in aggregate are concerned that they’re not prepared enough for retirement.

Kevin Gaines (14:13):

But here is the thing, for people who have only Social Security, they have no other savings, they have that anxiety of 58% that say, “Oh my gosh, I’m doomed in retirement.” But the survey found the moment you had any type of savings – the lowest bracket they had, for example, is 10 to $50,000. Admittedly, not a huge retirement nest egg, but it is a retirement nest egg all the same – only 22% felt anxious about their retirement prospects.

Kevin Gaines (14:54):

So, my point is, there’s a lot of headlines out there, and there’s a lot of discussions, but even just having a little bit of planning, a little bit of money put aside can make a huge difference in your psyche. Don’t dismiss the little things.

Stephanie McCullough (15:16):

Yes. And that points out this next barrier. A lot of people apparently say that they’re avoiding it because they think that facing the decisions creates more fear and insecurity. So, you think there’s this thing you haven’t looked at yet, because you worry that when you look at the details and figure out exactly what you’re facing, that’ll be worse.

Stephanie McCullough (15:40):

But I have to say, in 27 years of doing financial planning, that’s not my experience. Clients tend to feel no matter what the result is of the work we do. Maybe they’re in great shape, maybe they’ve got a lot of work to do to get to the point where they’re going to be comfortable retiring or doing what they want to do – they almost always feel better knowing.

Stephanie McCullough (16:05):

It’s kind of your point about the unknown unknowns, Kevin. Once you kind of have a picture of what you’re facing, and we come up with an action plan, “Oh, I should do these three things and that will help,” okay, we can break it down step by step and figure out a plan.

Stephanie McCullough (16:23):

I’ll tell you, even yesterday, I was meeting with a client, we didn’t even get into the planning yet. I just laid out what we were going to do in the meeting, and she said, “Oh my gosh, just you telling me that, I feel this wave of relief sweeping over my whole body.” Because I feel like we work ourselves up into this level of anxiety about the unknown, and once we can see the picture of it, it’s a little bit less scary. What’s your experience, Kevin?

Kevin Gaines (16:47):

Same as yours. I’m sitting here, I’m trying to think, and I honestly cannot think of a meeting in which a client or a prospect felt worse off than when they walked in the door. That confronting whatever the situation is (good or bad), there is that relief. It’s like I know what the issue is, or I know where I stand.

Kevin Gaines (17:15):

Think about horror movies. What are the scarier parts of the movie or the scarier movies when you can’t see the big bad. Once you know where the evil is, it loses a little bit.

Stephanie McCullough (17:28):

I don’t watch horror movies, I hate them all. That’s not my thing.

Kevin Gaines (17:34):

But yet, it’s, oh, the boogeyman is behind, you can’t see him, and then he pops out. That scares you.

Stephanie McCullough (17:40):

Well, that’s true.

Kevin Gaines (17:41):

Seeing him actually chasing after the soon-to-be victim or the soon-to-be survivor, alright, now it’s a chase scene.

Stephanie McCullough (17:51):

I did stop watching Stranger Things because there was some unknown force in the trees that was like making bad things happen. I’m like I’m out, I’m done. I got into three episodes in, and I was done. Yes, so the unknown unknown is scarier.

Stephanie McCullough (18:06):

Another barrier is that (this one strikes really real to me) there could be other things competing for your time and attention. I mean, this is real, we all have a lot to do. We all have many things we need to do, many things we could be doing. And when we see this big scary thing on the list, it’s easy to just say, “Oh, I’m going to keep putting it off and do these other things.”

Kevin Gaines (18:32):

And it’s not even that necessarily, that it’s a big scary thing. It’s, as you initially said, there’s other things going on. Yes, could you benefit from starting to think about retirement planning in your twenties and thirties, forties? Sure. Why don’t we do it until we’re in our fifties or sixties? A, because it’s not right in front of us until then. But B, we’re worried about raising our family, advancing in our career, saving for college, saving for vacations like you said, other things-

Stephanie McCullough (19:02):

Buying a house.

Kevin Gaines (19:03):

That are just taking away from the focus. And you got to live your life. We’re not saying it’s wrong to think about these things and less on retirement. Well, we’re saying it’s wrong, but it’s understandable.

Stephanie McCullough (19:20):

Well, even if you’re 63, there still could be competing things that are buying for your time and attention.

Kevin Gaines (19:28):

Another big hurdle is implementation costs. A lot of us are going to be worried it’s going to take a lot of money, time, effort, sacrifice to do these things that we’re going to have to do.

Stephanie McCullough (19:46):

To make the decisions and to implement them. To like do the research, figure out which one to pick, and then to put it in place. Yeah, it does take time.

Kevin Gaines (19:54):

It does take time. Some of the solutions do cost money. Saving for retirement, yes, those are dollars you do not get to spend today.

Stephanie McCullough (20:04):

But I think the emotional effort might be the biggest one.

Kevin Gaines (20:07):

And it is.

Stephanie McCullough (20:08):

At least for me. If I perceive something like that’s going to take a lot … I mean, okay, it’s somewhat similar with estate planning. Like, “Oh, I don’t want to think about my demise or my loved one’s demise, and what happens after. That’s unpleasant, that’s emotional effort that you’ve got to put in to face it.” Retirement’s not that different because we’re thinking about getting older and things that happen at that point.

Kevin Gaines (20:33):

Yeah, I mean, planning for college, alright, fine, yeah, that’s a lot of money that you’re going to worry about spending in a very short period of time. But at the end, you’re done with it, you get to go on with the rest of your life and your kids are now in a better position for the future. The end of that tunnel is very optimistic. What’s at the end of the tunnel at retirement and estate planning? It’s a light, but it’s the light.

Stephanie McCullough (21:07):

So, that’s completely reasonable and understandable.

Kevin Gaines (21:12):

Yeah. And I want to hit that point again, Stephanie, that everything we’re talking about, all of these, as they call them barriers to action or whatever, they’re reasonable fears and concerns to have.

Stephanie McCullough (21:28):

The two largest barriers reported in the survey is number one, that everybody’s situation is so unique that it’s going to be hard to plan. Like if I’m reading about what someone else did, that doesn’t apply to me. And that is a barrier. How am I going to find any information that’s specific to me? That’s one barrier. And the other one, Kevin, why don’t you hit that?

Kevin Gaines (21:54):

Too much uncertainty in life to know how to plan. Well, you know what? Yeah, there is a lot of uncertainty in life.

Stephanie McCullough (22:05):

Absolutely. Both of these are true. Everybody’s unique, everybody’s situation’s unique, and everything’s uncertain. And we still see value in planning.

Kevin Gaines (22:14):

But especially going to that uncertainty point where it’s saying “to know how to plan,” this gets one of the biggest misconceptions, I think is out there, or one of the biggest misconceptions is plan, not planning.

Kevin Gaines (22:28):

Stephanie, you and I have been saying this since we started, this is a process, an ongoing process, this isn’t a one-and-done. Because I mean, if you treat it as a one and done, the moment you’re “done,” something has already changed.

Kevin Gaines (22:44):

So yes, there’s uncertainty, but the whole idea of planning is you’re thinking of stuff ahead of time, and you’re in a position to adjust when that uncertainty appears.

Stephanie McCullough (22:57):

Yes, it’s that ability to be flexible and adjust that a plan gives you. It’s not a set in stone thing you stick with, no matter what happens. It’s kind of lining things up, knowing what’s there, giving everything a job, and then being able to be flexible and adjust as life happens.

Stephanie McCullough (23:19):

So, one of the reasons they did this survey is to try to figure out, okay, financial people, how could you actually message around the financial planning, the retirement planning in a way that would be more effective in inspiring people to act and to actually do the planning?

Stephanie McCullough (23:35):

And some of the things that they found kind of tested most positively were pointing out that planning actually creates a feeling of taking charge of the uncertainty, having some control and flexibility. Those are some of the words that really resonated with people. And we’ll be curious what you say, listeners, we’d like to hear from you.

Stephanie McCullough (24:01):

So, they actually tested a bunch of different sentences to see which ones were most effective in encouraging people to do some planning.

Stephanie McCullough (24:10):

So, we’re going to read you a few, and we want to hear from you which one would you rank number one, as the one that would help you get off the dime and do some planning, even though these barriers are actually real.

Stephanie McCullough (24:24):

Alright, sentence number one: planning for retirement can give you more control of your life in retirement.

Stephanie McCullough (24:38):

Planning for retirement will reduce the chances of you running out of money later in life.

Kevin Gaines (24:45):

Planning for retirement will give you more flexibility in retirement.

Stephanie McCullough (24:52):

Planning for retirement will make you better able to face the uncertainties you might face later in life.

Kevin Gaines (25:00):

Design a path that will allow you to achieve your retirement dreams. The funny thing is, that’s a phrase I use a lot Stephanie, when I’m talking with people. Well, I hit on the retirement dreams, and I’m going to be interested to see how people respond to that line.

Stephanie McCullough (25:15):

Alright, and then the last one, planning for retirement will make it less likely that you will be a burden on your family. So, one of the things they’re looking at is avoiding negative things that gets people to move more, or is it hitting the positive things that is more effective?

Kevin Gaines (25:31):

Another finding in this section, Stephanie, this one I know is near and dear to your heart because one of your favorite parts of our podcast is the Real Retirement Stories. But over half the respondents said they would be encouraged to do more retirement planning by hearing stories of similar people and being asked thought-provoking questions.

Kevin Gaines (25:56):

I mean, I sit here and I love to talk about the nitty gritty and the details and all that stuff, but Stephanie, I mean, this is the stuff you live for.

Stephanie McCullough (26:05):

This is true but we’ve had a lot of guests, obviously the Real Retirement Stories series, but a lot of the kind of coaching guests and the people who are really helping folks navigate what is life going to look like after retirement (Judith Kurnick comes to mind as one).

Stephanie McCullough (26:21):

Asking yourself some of these thought provoking questions, even our most recent one with the five crucial questions to ask yourself. If that can help encourage you to do some planning dear listener, we have done our job.

Kevin Gaines (26:34):

And the thing is, I mean, it’s human nature. As humans, we are genetically or whatever, predisposed to responding better to stories and anecdotes more than facts and figures and just being dictated to.

Stephanie McCullough (26:55):

Yeah, for sure. Also, on the messaging that’s effective, because there are many decisions to be made, because it’s an ongoing process, the authors point out that it can be really effective to have periodic reminders and check-ins and encouragement to keep people on track. And of course, congratulating people on their successes, pointing out the wins.

Stephanie McCullough (27:23):

I always remember sitting down with my client, who shall remain nameless, but she’ll recognize herself in the story. The first time we met, we met at the cafe at Whole Foods, and she dissolved and into tears at the table, because she was just so stressed about some money stuff, and she’d be dealing with it on her own for so long.

Stephanie McCullough (27:40):

And then a year later, she was frustrated about one thing, but I had to stop her and say, “Let’s flash back 12 months. Remember, you were so emotionally distraught, and look how much progress you’ve made, look how much you’ve done.”

Stephanie McCullough (27:54):

I find that Janice and I, at least with our clients, we are often reminding people and encouraging them and jumping up and down and cheering for them when they accomplish some of these decisions, when they put things into place, when they do whatever it is, that yeah, that is a part of it.

Stephanie McCullough (28:12):

It’s hard to do this stuff on your own if you’re just slogging through. That’s often why people work with trainers or coaches or even on a team. If you’re exercising, you’re exercising with other people, because even if you reach a milestone and you’re all on your own and no one cheers for you, that’s not very exciting.

Kevin Gaines (28:28):

And again, I think, Stephanie, that also highlights what’s important about working with a real financial planner as opposed to just a “stock jockey.” Because you can cheer your cell phone for your account balance all day long, and yes, the proverbial stock jockey will do that as well.

Kevin Gaines (28:49):

But when you’re working with a real financial planner, you’re going to be talking about subjects like, “Oh, we’ve discussed Social Security, what to do with that?” You understand the rules of Medicare when you’re going to start filing for that, and the pros and cons of picking different times.

Stephanie McCullough (29:14):

We’ve done the tax planning on your withdrawals from your different accounts.

Kevin Gaines (29:18):

Even if you’re in your late fifties, early sixties, we haven’t set these decisions in stone yet, but you see where you’re headed and you’re going to be reminded, yes, we’ve already talked about this. That’s something I’m not having to dread.

Stephanie McCullough (29:37):

Right. Breaking into small pieces, prioritizing, figuring out what needs to be done now versus later. What can we do to build the flexibility and the resilience into place.

Stephanie McCullough (29:48):

Alright, we’re going to read one last bit from the authors because again, I think this points out the value of the planning and hopefully might get you dear listener over some of the barriers.

Stephanie McCullough (30:00):

They say, “Many people manage their finances for the early years of retirement without significant advanced planning. They’re able to make adjustments in their spending to accommodate reduced income or assets. This situation can continue for many years, and it can continue until a health shock or financial shock forces retirees to make sudden and drastic changes. At that time, they may find themselves with fewer options or reduced chances of success.”

Stephanie McCullough (30:31):

And then they go on to say, “Often, these shocks are predictable, and steps could have been taken to protect against the consequences. Earlier acknowledgement and management of these potential shocks could help identify solutions or plan for contingencies that could alleviate some of the risks and address the uncertainties before a negative event occurs.”

Stephanie McCullough (30:56):

Plan for it before it happens. Half of our job is to think about what could go wrong.

Kevin Gaines (31:02):

It’s not fun, but stuff does go wrong. To another point that we’ve made earlier, you don’t have to necessarily have stuff set in stone: “Oh, we’ve got to do this.” It’s even just thinking about it so that if when the doctor comes in and delivers bad news, for example. You don’t have to go, “Oh my gosh, what the hell am I going to do?” The question becomes, “Oh, of the three options we’ve discussed when this situation happens, which one am I going to pick?” Yes, there’s still decisions to be made, but you at least have-

Stephanie McCullough (31:46):

A track to run on.

Kevin Gaines (31:47):

A track to run on. Yeah, the decisions are contained.

Stephanie McCullough (31:52):

Yeah. I like that, three options instead of a zillion. And when the crisis comes, you’re going to be in a state of heightened emotion, and it feels urgent. And then our higher-level reasoning goes offline, neuroscience tells us that. So, we are not in the best position to make big decisions.

Kevin Gaines (32:12):

And the other advantage of having thought about this stuff ahead of time, especially if it could involve other family members – maybe you’ve had the conversations with them. So, not only does it not come as a surprise to you, but it won’t be a surprise to your children, your spouse, whoever.

Stephanie McCullough (32:34):

I really appreciate Stanford Center on Longevity doing this study because yes, Kevin and I both have clients who are doing retirement planning, and there are many Americans who aren’t really acknowledging all the decisions that may need to be made as you approach these different phases of life, shall we say.

Stephanie McCullough (32:56):

And it is important to put the time in and do the planning (as a verb, not a noun) when you can. And by the way, it’s never too late. It’s never too late, no matter what your age might be or what your circumstance is, it’s never too late. But I really liked their approach on acknowledging the very real barriers and thinking about what things might help people get over those barriers to do some planning.

Kevin Gaines (33:22):

Well, what I took away from it, Stephanie, was not only is it talking to people who were starting this process or thinking about this process, but it’s also calling us out. Our industry in general saying, “You guys aren’t doing a necessarily a great job of talking to people about these things. You’re only talking dollars, for example, you’re not talking about some of these other issues that people have genuine concerns about,” but they don’t even think you’re going to do that job.

Kevin Gaines (33:56):

I mean, and that’s disheartening and it’s true, a lot of us don’t. But we need to get better so that we can help everybody get better.

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (34:07):

Thanks for being with us, we’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (34:10):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (34:14):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com.

Stephanie McCullough (34:22):

Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Disclaimer (34:29):

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