Take Back Retirement
Episode 50
What Women Need to Know About Divorce from a Divorce Coach with Sheila Brennan
Guest Name: Sheila Brennan
Visit Website: brennandivorcecoach.com
Today, Stephanie and Kevin are joined by Sheila Brennan, a divorce coach, who after being thrust into divorce herself 15 years ago, chose to use her experience to help others who struggled with the process. A divorce coach, she explains, is a relatively new concept, which is most easily described as a wedding planner for divorces. She helps her clients piece together their ideal divorce plan, and prepares them to execute it.
Aside from the obvious (a lawyer), there are many different types of professionals that can aid one with a divorce, like a CPA and a therapist. Stephanie compares a divorce coach to a doula, as they act as a similar support element for clients. Sheila emphasizes the pragmatism she uses in her approach to her work, and how her objectivity can serve someone who is likely very emotional.
Though people often approach her with the understanding that their divorce is the worst divorce, she sees them as incomparable. She doesn’t see divorce as something that can come out ‘well’ for someone, as it’s like a war, and why couldn’t we find a way to resolve this without having a war?
Sometimes, she says, clients come to her prematurely, at which point she’ll advise them to take a beat before proceeding with divorce. Divorce means breaking a complex legal contract, and most people don’t consider its nuances when signing it. While recently, divorce rates have gone down slightly at large, gray divorces (those for people aged 50 and older), have increased, and are more often initiated by women. With gray divorce, the financials are more sensitive as they can impact retirement funds, and the parties are outside of earning years in which they can make up for it. Sheila recommends consulting strategies outside of court, such as using a mediator. She cites children as a primary complication of divorce, explaining that even when they are adults, there can be complications.
Stephanie asks if it’s easier for the initiator, as they’ve had more time to think about the divorce. Aside from the emotional elements, Sheila doesn’t often see the initiator making plans beyond requesting the divorce. Often, when women are approached by their husbands about divorcing, she’s noticed, they take initiative in actioning it, which she reminds them is not their responsibility. Sometimes, following the grieving part of a divorce, there’s a transformative process, where the individual realizes their newfound freedom in decision-making.
For someone considering divorce, she recommends learning the skills needed for negotiation, along with equipping yourself with knowledge about and access to finances. She closes by reiterating that divorce is costly, and employing specialists beyond lawyers not only better readies you for an ideal outcome, but saves both parties money.
Resources:
Please listen and share with your friends who are in the same situation!
Key Topics
- Introducing Sheila Brennan (00:51)
- What’s a divorce coach? (02:11)
- Beyond the legal elements (05:17)
- Divorce doula (08:41)
- Pragmatics (10:20)
- Navigating, not overcoming (11:29)
- Avoiding divorce (11:53)
- The contract (13:47)
- Divorce rates (14:37)
- Gray divorce (14:52)
- Strategy (16:30)
- Nonfiscal problems of divorce (17:45)
- Is it easier being the initiator? (25:58)
- The transformation (31:20)
- Advice (32:22)
- The price of peace (34:59)
00:06
Stephanie McCullough: Welcome to Take Back Retirement, the show for women 50 and better, facing a financial future on their own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, and along with my fellow financial planner, Kevin Gaines, we’re going to tackle the myths and mysteries of “Retirement,” so you can make wise decisions toward a sustainable financial future. Through conversations and interviews, you’ll get the information and motivation you need, to move forward with confidence. And we’ll be sure to have some fun along the way. We’re so glad you’re here. Let’s dive in. Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.
Kevin Gaines: Hello, Kevin.
Today, as part of our divorce mini-series, we’re talking to my friend, Sheila Brennan. Sheila is a divorce coach. And, in fact, she’s the first divorce coach I ever met. She has been doing this important work for quite a few years now. She has a lot of experience, knowledge. But what I love about Sheila most is the empathy combined with practicality. She was thrust into the world of divorce over 15 years ago, when her then-husband served her with a divorce petition. And she was totally at a loss, right? It was all new to her. It was a rough one, it took over five years. And because of what she learned along the way, she started informally coaching friends and family who were going through their own processes, even before she was done with her own. And then as you’ll hear, someone told her, ‘Hey, this is actually a career, you could be a coach,’ and she really is great. So. I’m excited for you to hear Sheila’s take on divorce. Again, with our series, what we’re trying to bring is perspectives of different professionals, not divorce attorneys, but other professionals that can bring you perhaps a more holistic view of what you might need to know if you or someone you love is going through divorce. So, let’s dive in.
02:16
Stephanie:
Sheila Brennan, welcome to Take Back Retirement.
02:20
Sheila Brennan: Hi, Stephanie. Thanks so much for having me today. Thrilled to be here.
02:17
Kevin Gaines: Let’s just start off the conversation with the obvious question, what the hell’s a divorce coach?
02:24
Sheila: Thanks for asking, Kevin, I appreciate it. A divorce coach is a relatively, I would say, new concept in the last maybe 10 years. I’ve been a divorce coach for 14. And at the time when I first started really helping people with their divorce, and then subsequently started calling myself a divorce coach, I often went to parties, and it was easier just to say I’m a coach. And people thought I was a basketball coach because I’m taller than the average woman. But then also, people would say, ‘Oh my god, so thank God, I don’t need you. You know, I’m happily married for 35 years. ‘And I would say ‘Thanks, good for you.’ But other people would come up to me, men and women, and would say, ‘I didn’t even know that there was such a thing. I wish I had known about it.’ And I agree, because I wish I had known about it when I got divorced back in the early 2000s. It wasn’t even invented yet. The term was first coined in California, of course, as all trends tend to be, but it was originally first coined in California. And while I was going through my divorce, my friend who was divorced, said, ‘You should be a divorce coach.’ And I literally put my finger up. And I said, ‘I don’t know what that is. But this has been the worst thing that’s ever happened to me. And I wouldn’t want to talk about divorce all day long.’ And here I am, 15 years later.
In short, a divorce coach is a wedding planner for divorces. So, someone to help with all the pieces of the puzzle to create the ideal divorce plan, I call it. And then plan A is never going to be exactly what the outcome is. But as we know, it’s much better to start with a plan and have goals than to have nothing and to literally go to a lawyer and say, ‘I want to divorce,’ which is what probably 95% of people do. ‘I want to divorce but have no way of having no idea of how they’re going to what that looks like.’ And I use an example of, nobody would ever go to an architect and say, ‘I want an addition.’ Or ‘I want a house.’ They would have their Pinterest board and they would have everything all done and they would have the hardware in the kitchen, but not with divorce. And you plop down a huge sum of money and it doesn’t happen fast. And you go through money like no other way, and a life transition. Divorce can be so expensive.
05:07
Stephanie: I love the idea of sitting down with someone who’s been there not only herself but with lots of other people to help flesh out what the possibilities are so that you can make informed choices before you kind of dive down the road. Is that a fair description?
05:25
Sheila: Perfect, just perfect.
05:27
Kevin: From what I’ve seen in the past, the divorce lawyer sits you down and walks you through the whole process, the legal process, but it kind of starts and ends there. And everybody else is just sitting there when they’re done, like you were saying, just kind of holding the bag, going ‘Now what?’ or ‘Gee, this really got screwed up,’ or went down a different direction. So, you’re almost the first step, just to talk with somebody, talk through what everything is going to be involved, and say, ‘Okay, now we go from here.’
06:10
Sheila: And the legal process in a divorce is a small part of a divorce. So. if you think of a divorce, the person getting divorced is the CEO of the divorce. And then you need someone who’s going to be your CFO, your financial person, you need someone who will be like HR, which would be a therapist, you need someone who’s going to perhaps help you with the parenting aspect of it, and what I call a divorce coach is the COO. So, I have clients who say, ‘Well, my attorney said that I can’t file taxes like that.’ And I always say, ‘Well, why don’t you consult with a CPA?’ Why don’t you consult with someone, not because your attorney is not a tax attorney, your attorney is a divorce attorney. And so, you want to make sure that the information, like sit down with one person and for the lawyer to draw out what happens in the legal process. Well, everybody’s legal process is different, depending on how the parties are acting and how contentious the parties are. But it really is that you go to the lawyer, and you say, ‘Okay, this is what we have. These are the assets that we have, these are the debts that we have, I’ve spoken to a financial person, I’ve spoken to a CPA, I’ve spoken to a CDFA.’ So, you make a whole team approach. And, again, it’s a huge transition in life, you’re talking about everything that’s dear to you, your kids, your house, your retirement, your everything, your animals, the most important things to you. And you need to make sure, ideally, that you have an idea. I often say to people, this is like you’re playing chess with your partner, you both have the same pieces, but your king is different. So, what’s the most important, what will you protect at all costs? So, the other things, the other pieces of the board are, you can lose them. But what’s your king? What’s your queen? And while you’re thinking of that, what do you think is most important to your partner? So, it’s really thinking strategically about the process versus always just thinking like the lawyer, the lawyer, the lawyer. So, if you go in saying, this is my king, this is what I would like to protect at all costs. And this is how I envision being able to protect it, whether that’s your retirement, whether that’s your house, whether that’s your income, looking at support, it’s more than just the law.
08:51
Stephanie: I love that. One of my favorite analogies you’ve used Sheila is divorce doula. So, you mentioned that all trends start in California. So, my friend Deb, who I know listens to the podcast, she had a doula for when her second child was born. And I was like, oh, that sounds cool. Someone who’s on my side, to hold my hand, but also come up with a plan ahead of time. This is my ideal birth plan. This is Plan B birth plan to kind of give me the lay of the land and helped me think about how to get what I want. Whereas the doctor’s birthing, what, like seven babies, 17 babies that day, who knows, right? But to have someone really on my side, also for the emotional support.
09:31
Sheila: And really to navigate the journey with you. I was at a networking event years ago, after I was already working full time as a divorce coach, and I was explaining what I did. And this woman said, ‘So basically, you’re a divorce doula.’ And I had never heard that word before. And of course, I like went into the ladies’ room and I’m googling ‘doula.’ I’m like, oh my God, that is exactly what a divorce coach does for their clients. That is such a great analogy, like the description of doula in google and cross out childbirth and put divorce.
10:17
Stephanie: Right, because like a wedding planner, maybe you’re not going to call the wedding planner, you know, not that people should call you at 2 am. But when they’re like losing their mind and crying and can’t get their arms around it, you don’t want to be calling your lawyer for the emotional part either.
10:30
Sheila: No, and you shouldn’t be calling your lawyer. You can’t eliminate the emotional piece in divorce, of course. But I’m very much pragmatic. I do like the nuts and bolts. So, there’s a lot of divorce coaches who have a background in therapy, or psychology, social worker. My background is in accounting and in technology. But again, you can’t eliminate the emotional part of it. But it’s like, Okay, let’s get back to: what are you going to do? How are you going to approach your attorney, how you’re going to best communicate, how you’re going to communicate with your spouse? What’s the best tactic to take? So, it’s very strategic.
11:12
Stephanie: How to take efficient and effective action, right, who to call for what things? And for the vast majority of people going through divorce, it’s the first time they’ve gone through it, right? Most of us. And it is a scary thing. Like maybe your cousin did this, or your sister-in-law is recommending that. But that’s, that’s one experience. So, what I appreciate also is your objectivity and your range of experiences that you’ve had that you can bring to your clients.
11:37
Sheila: Right. And I think everybody should, it doesn’t matter how narcissistic or self-centered your spouse is, everyone should do everything they can to navigate in a way that’s more productive and less harmful. It doesn’t just impact you. It impacts your children; it impacts everybody.
12:08
Stephanie: So, do people ever come to you thinking they’re on the road to divorce and you maybe have a conversation, and they don’t go that road? Not that you talk them out of it.
12:18
Sheila: Well, sometimes people when they speak it out loud, it maybe doesn’t sound as bad as they thought it was. And I had a client one time she came to my office. So, she had called me, and she scheduled an appointment. She came to my office. And it was her 25th wedding anniversary. And it was probably sometime in the summer. And she said, ‘My husband went to Las Vegas, back in December and things have never been the same.’ And I was like, Okay, well. She said, ‘We’ve had 24 great years.’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, if you’ve had 24 great years, you can literally say that.’ So, my suggestion would be to go home, find out what happened in Vegas, and work on that. But I’m sorry that you’re here on your 25th wedding anniversary, which really should be, maybe not a joyful day, but a reminder. But if you’ve had 24 good years, you’re doing really well.
13:22
Stephanie: Yeah, exactly. There are always rough patches.
13:29
Sheila: And something probably happened in Vegas. But find out or move on, but don’t get divorced over a trip to Vegas. I have other examples too. Because marriage is hard. But divorce is really hard, too. I say to people, Don’t use just and divorce in the same sentence. Because it’s not just anything.
13:55
Stephanie: Yeah. Don’t underestimate the gravity and the oh my gosh, complexity. It’s hard. I think what a lot of people don’t realize when they’re getting married, because it’s a joyful day. And there’s all the pomp and ceremony, but it’s a complicated legal contract.
14:10
Sheila: I think that almost no one thinks that except those that are doing a prenup, but that’s just we just should do this because my parents or somebody is, but I don’t think anybody ever thinks about the legal contract that they’ve they’re entering because I know I didn’t. Did you?
14:29
Stephanie: No.
14:30
Sheila: Okay, Kevin, did you? Are you married?
14:33
Kevin: I did, but I’m weird.
14:36
Sheila: You must have been more mature.
14:40
Kevin: That’s it, let’s just say my wife’s a very lucky woman to have somebody as weird as me.
14:50
Stephanie: So, I saw a statistic recently that overall, the divorce rate has gone down slightly in this country. However, the divorce rate for people aged 50 and up has gone up since 1990 by 104%. Does that track with what you’re seeing?
15:03
Sheila: It does. It definitely does. And I think because coaches are a new concept. The more I have more clients who are not, but the gray divorce, who are younger than 50. But the gray divorces, certainly the numbers are astronomical. And when I first heard about that, I actually couldn’t believe it. And I thought originally that it was because more divorces were initiated by men. And that’s not the case. More of them are initiated by women.
15:38
Stephanie: Oh, yeah. That’s interesting.
15:40
Sheila: And I think that I think the gray divorce is even a more important time that you are strategic, and thoughtful about how the ending of your marriage, the dissolution of your marriage, because you are spending your potential retirement on legal fees. And when you’re younger, and you’re spending legal fees, the court system will always say like, you’re spending your kid’s college education, but that can be funded, and retirement can’t. So, it’s even more important to be thoughtful on how to best divide your assets. And if you have any debt, and to stay out of court and to stay out of attorneys’ offices, but use more of the alternative dispute resolution, any of the other methods of reaching an agreement.
16:40
Stephanie: Yeah, we’ve got an interview with a mediator that will be part of this series as well.
16:48
Sheila: Oh, great. Mediation is a great way to go. And the same thing I always say to people, if you’re going to go to mediation, that’s another thing that you should absolutely use a divorce coach because you want to go to the table with your plan, because you don’t want to go, enter the mediation room on Zoom mostly now, but you don’t want to enter the Zoom room and like, ‘I don’t know, I haven’t really thought about it.’ Again, if you have plan A easier to deviate because you know this is the best outcome, this would be the worst outcome. So anywhere in the middle is great. Yeah, it was a success.
17:30
Stephanie: Right. Now, that’s a good point about being more strategic, the closer you are to those older years, because maybe you have less earning years. What I’m curious about is, besides the financial challenge for older people getting divorced, what else do you see that might be a challenge? Our audience is, mostly women, mostly 50 and up. Have you seen women go through that? What else do they face that’s tricky, besides the money part?
17:58
Sheila: So, besides the money part is possible employment, running a household on their own, regardless of what that household, if it’s a five-bedroom or 500 square feet, so running it on their own, and also what people don’t think of because so often people will stay together for the kids. And will stay together until the kids are in college, and adult children of divorce, there are a lot of issues with, not issues, but it’s not like, oh, the kids aren’t living with me anymore. There’s a lot of things that come up when you’re talking about adult children of divorce. And I don’t think it’s something that people take into consideration. And as somebody said, one time, ‘Where we supposed to spend the holidays now?’ You don’t even live here. But it becomes kids almost still think like, as kids do, taking sides and using one of your adult children as your almost like as your therapist or as your advisor. And that logically does happen a lot.
19:11
Stephanie: Wow. Yeah. That’s got to be rough, again, on everybody.
19:15
Sheila: Oh, yeah. Especially if, usually the person who the parent who pulls the plug, they’re usually regarded as the bad one. I think too, I think because kids think, ‘Oh, Dad, now I’m going to have to look after mom, or I’m going to have to look after Dad or.’ And that’s a reality in a lot of ways. And not only what are we going to do for the holidays, but it’s really like, the long term is like, ‘Oh, my God.’ And then dad will probably get remarried. But what about Mom?
19:52
Stephanie: Right. So, no matter when it happens, it’s going to affect the kids even if they’ve left the nest.
20:00
Sheila: Yeah. Because they still like to come back to the nest. And then if there’s another partner, and then what happens with the will and what happens with this, and what happens with that, and often, people will say, like, ‘Okay, if we get divorced, you have to, when you pass away, when they’re older, the kids get everything.’ And nobody can force you to do that in a divorce agreement. But also, I mean, you can agree to do it. But you totally lose control over that. And if you’ve built up a sizable estate or had a business, that’s something that you want, you feel like you can control. And in divorce, all of those controls really go out the window.
20:54
Stephanie: Because any of the marital assets are kind of on the table.
20:59
Sheila: And they’re split. Yeah, well, again, in some way, or they will start 50/50. And also, I think another thing that comes up a lot is keeping the house. At all ages. Like, I want my kids to be able to come back here, this is the only house that my kids have known. That’s a huge conversation.
21:24
Stephanie: Do you have to sometimes talk people off that ledge or at least help them get a more nuanced view of it besides the emotional attachment?
21:33
Sheila: So, I tried to do again, pragmatic. I don’t do it financially, although I think financially it’s a huge issue. But I tried to do more of that, if you’ve had holidays, or you’ve had Mother’s Day or whatever it is in this house, and the two of you are no longer together, for the kids, it’s still like, the ghost of the other parent is still there. And that’s true of at any age, it’s you’re not really starting fresh, you’re not really starting over because the other parent is there. It’s similar, like they say in death too, that it’s like someone’s ghost is still there. But I think it’s that trick. I think, personally, it’s like that in divorce as well.
22:23
Stephanie: So, if mom stays in the house, when the kids come back to see mom, they’re still thinking and remembering the times when dad was there.
22:30
Sheila: Or that you’d like different things that happen if the memories are also continued to be with dad. Dad still in the memories. Not necessarily that it’s a trigger, but just that they’re how can they not be? So I don’t really get into the, as far as, whether you can afford it or not, because I don’t think that’s my job to say that. But I just say as far as like the pragmatic piece of it about the house and all that the house carries. And I don’t in any way think that moving is easy. But moving is never easy. So, moving isn’t easy now. But moving isn’t easy in 15 years, either. Because now you’ve got 30 years of junk, right? In your closets, and in your drawers.
23:26
Kevin: No matter how often you purge, it still seems, year after year.
23:30
Sheila: And you open up a cabinet, you’re like, Oh, I was putting stuff in my cabinets.
23:44
Kevin: So, you were talking earlier about children and adult children and interacting with now to separate parents as opposed to one unit. But friends, how often does that come up in conversations of people coming to you worried is like, ‘Oh, my gosh, we have all these friends? Am I going to lose all of them? Am I going to lose half of them? Am I going to hose him and he’s going to be left? And I’m going to get all of them?’ Is there ever a whole conversation about the concern about losing your social fabric?
24:17
Sheila: So, I have many, many conversations, but not with every client, it usually is something that they bring up. And it’s a hard predictor of what happens socially. As far as that, I think that let me just before I say use a superlative I’d often use, people take sides as much as they don’t want to take sides. But people take sides. So. it’s friends. It’s also your in-laws. Yeah, those are really hard relationships. And so that that’s a part of the fallout. And my thing is, is that divorce changes socially, emotionally, financially, and legally.
25:13
Stephanie: It’s a lot. Yeah, a lot of change.
25:20
Sheila: It’s your whole world. My favorite thing is when people say to their kids, nothing’s going to change. Everything’s going to change for me and dad or dad and mom, but nothing’s going to change for you. And it’s like, one parent is moving out of the house. That’s a big change. No matter how much you want to say nothing’s going to change.
25:40
Stephanie: So maybe not the best promise to try to make.
25:45
Sheila: It’s not, maybe you’re committed to keeping them in the same school. But so often, you can’t. It’s really hard to keep the family home when you’re now having two incomes, two houses, or one income, two houses. It’s just hard to maintain that family home unless you’re in the upper percentage of income earners.
26:10
Stephanie: Yeah, I think that’s really true. So, you talked about how more of the older divorces are being initiated by women. I would think it would be easier to be strategic about it if you are the initiator. But what if you’re totally surprised? All of a sudden, your spouse of many years comes to you and says, ‘I want a divorce.’ And you’re left trying to figure out, I’m sure that person should have a coach as well.
26:35
Sheila: Why do you think it would be easier to be the initiator?
26:40
Stephanie: It would be, he’s here to be strategic. If you’re the initiator. You’ve been thinking about it. You’ve been maybe planning for it. I don’t know, I’m imagining.
26:47
Sheila: So, if you’re the initiator, and you’ve been thinking about it, and people think about it, and they think about it emotionally, for a long, long time. But they don’t think about the other ways. They usually think about the emotional part of it. And then it’s like, so they can say, ‘I’ve been thinking about this for eight years. Okay, what do I do?’ So, they’re not, they’re not combining the way that it all changes. Like, maybe I should get a job? Maybe I should do maybe I should go back to school? They’re not thinking that they’re not thinking like that. They’re thinking, ‘I can’t stay married for another 20 years. I can’t, I’ve been so miserable.’ So, they’re going to, but they’re not thinking, how do I set myself up to be in a better position to get divorced? So, the initiator is a little bit better emotionally.
But if, if someone is, let’s say that their spouse comes and says, ‘We’re going to get divorced.’ So, at that point, you don’t have to do anything. And people think they always have to do something. But I make the comparison often to Nancy Kerrigan when she got hit by the club in the ice rink. And it doesn’t matter what age I say this to, they always know exactly. And I said, ‘Do you remember her screaming?’ Like that scream from outside of the ice rink. So, Nancy Kerrigan wasn’t thinking, I wonder if I’m going to be in the next Olympics. I wonder if you know how I’ll perform on Saturday. She literally was thinking, how can I stand up? And will I be able to walk? And I say to people, remember that if you are blindsided, you’re in no position to go to an attorney, you’re in no position to make any decisions. You’re in no position to make any agreements. You need to literally figure out like, how am I going to stand up? How am I going to get out of bed tomorrow? And who am I going to call first? And so many people will think that I need to find a lawyer right away, and nothing’s been done yet. So just really, truly hit the pause button, and take a deep breath, and you really have it, this is right now survival, and you literally have been hit by the divorce club. And you don’t have to do anything. Or what I always love is that when it’s usually women will come to me and say, ‘I need to contact s lawyer because I need to get divorced. And I need to file,’ and I’ll say, ‘Well, why do you have to file?’ Again, always being strategic. ‘Well, because my husband says that he wants to get divorced.’ And I’ll be like, ‘Okay, let him do it.’ So why do you have to do it? But again, if a couple has been in a dance, where he says, ‘I think we should do this, or we should do that, or we shouldn’t have made plans for a vacation.’ And she’s used to doing it. Or the same way, it’s usually women who do that. Like, no, no, you don’t, if he wants a divorce. Let him do it. Let him do the work. And that’s especially true in a couple that has been married for a long time. Because that’s the dance that they’ve done.
30:12
Kevin: How eye-opening is that when they hear you say those words? ‘You don’t have to do that.’ It was like a light bulb was like, oh my gosh, I don’t.
30:25
Sheila: Well, what’s going to happen? I’m like, well, he can file. And you can get served. ‘Oh, wow. Really? So, I don’t have to do anything?’ No. I told one woman, ‘Why don’t you go to the shore for the summer, and then get in touch with me in September?’ And she was like, ‘Oh, my God, you don’t have to do anything.’ And she was so grateful. She did come back to me in September, October, and she said, ‘I was so not in a good place to do anything. And I needed that time to just get my breathing regulated again and be like, okay, so what is this going to look like?’ And then she came back, and we made a plan.
31:12
Stephanie: I like that. You don’t have to rush and do these things. Pause and breathe.
31:19
Sheila: You don’t have to take care of everybody. You don’t have to do everything. But it is very funny. We’re like, I don’t know…
31:33
Stephanie: That’s the transformation. I’ve seen a few of my friends who have gotten divorced that they go through this transformation where, yes, it’s miserable. That’s awful. And then when they get to the end of like, ‘Oh, I get to choose where I go on vacation, I get to choose everything now.’ Which takes a little while, but sometimes it’s like Oh, I like it.
31:50
Sheila: For some people, it’s the first time ever in their life, right?
31:55
Stephanie: Takes some getting used to perhaps. Yeah, I like that.
32:02
Sheila: Someone said to me in a meeting earlier, ‘What did you do this weekend?’ I said, ‘Whatever I wanted.’ But some people feel guilty saying that. I don’t get it, sounds good.
32:17
Stephanie: So, if someone listening thinks they might be headed toward divorce, what do you advise them to do to think about starting in place ahead of time?
32:33
Sheila: I recommend learning about negotiation, becoming a good negotiator, learning the skills that are needed in a negotiation, calling me and if you don’t call me call the divorce coach, first, start to think about how informed are you about your finances. And if you’re not informed about your finances, then it’s really good to remember that the average widow in the United States is 47. A young widow told me that one time at 47 and when I mentioned that to my sister, who I went away with who is a widow, she has been a widow for 11 years now. She was 47 when she became a widow. She was like, ‘Wow, I had no idea.’ Her husband was 49. She was 47. But it is really it’s really important to, if you’re thinking you are, educate yourself, educate yourself, be very aware of everything that comes into the house in January. Make sure that you know what accounts are, know that you have access to those accounts. And make sure that you see the tax return to make a copy of it and find someone if you don’t understand it, find someone who can explain it to you.
34:00
Stephanie: That’s good. Yeah, because you got to sign that tax return.
34:02
Sheila: Don’t have it be a divorce lawyer. But it’s amazing to me how many people don’t sign the tax return, don’t pay attention to it at all.
34:10
Stephanie: Yeah, I’m not surprised anymore.
34:12
Kevin: I know several people that don’t.
34:15
Sheila: And especially with electronic signing it, it’s easier not to look at it. Really educate yourself. And as much time as you spend on emotions, spend a third as much time on the reality, the financial realities of divorce, because it really is, if it’s a contract, you’re breaking the contract, you’re ending a partnership. And that is a huge, huge life transition.
34:47
Stephanie: And I’ve spoken to more than one woman who has told me the story of her divorce. And she’s like, ‘It was just so awful. I had to get out. I took nothing, no dollars.’ Like, okay, that might have been a grueling thing to go through. But you had a right to something, even if there wasn’t a lot of assets, you had a right to something.
35:11
Sheila: And sometimes the fight, if you think about the price of peace, people say the price of peace is just walking away. And I know someone who had a long, almost a 40-year marriage, who every time she would say to her husband, ‘Okay, how about this?’ And he would say no. And then she would adapt to his new demands. And he would say no. And then she would reconfigure the agreement. He just wanted to be cantankerous and say no, and the thing is, is that in the process, you can do that. And then you get your file to get in front of a judge. And that gets delayed and that gets delayed, and this person had a lot of children. They were her husband was retired this couple that the husband was retired. So, no kids in the house, kids were all flown, grown and flown. And when she went to the lawyer, the lawyer said, ‘Oh, this should be an easy one.’ And it was four years later. And that’s awful. The amount of money again, retirement money that was spent in dividing the retirement. It’s crazy. And it’s almost like you get on this runaway train. No one tells you where the emergency brake is not like, you’re not stopping at any of the stations, you can’t jump off, and you have no control because this is not on to you and your spouse. But now you’ve got two attorneys, and you’ve got the courts involved in your life.
36:58
Stephanie: So, do you think that could have been avoided if something had gone differently?
37:02
Sheila: Oh, yeah. But stop calling the lawyer stop involving the lawyer, figure out and you know what, sometimes you have to say, ‘We just don’t have to get divorced.’ If everybody has enough money or access to money. It’s not worth spending 10s of 1000s of dollars, repeatedly, to get divorced.
37:25
Kevin: So just lives through separate lives.
37:29
Stephanie: Two separate lives, but still being married.
37:31
Sheila: Totally separate lives. Again, if people have access to money. If they don’t, that’s a different situation. But you just can’t keep fighting and fighting and fighting because it’s too expensive.
37:42
Stephanie: So, the two extremes don’t fight it all. Roll over and let the ex walk all over you or fight just for the sake of fighting. I’d seen both of those.
37:54
Sheila: And if someone said to me that they didn’t want anything, you have to really like talk through that, like, so she came to you afterwards, right? Yes. Love yours, or worse. But you have to like talk through that. So, you’re entitled to 50%. So can walk away. But what does that mean for you? What does that mean for you in the near future? And not, let’s create a budget, maybe create a budget. But the reality of it. I totally can see people doing that. But it really is like long term – such a bad idea.
38:27
Stephanie: I agree. I think she was 40 or something and zero retirement account. Again, you can’t redo that once it’s done.
38:34
Sheila: It’s not it’s not modifiable. And then a divorce agreement is not modifiable. Child support is modifiable. A child custody agreement is modifiable, but not a divorce agreement.
38:50
Kevin: So, this has been a great conversation. Sheila, people are going to have questions they always do. How do they find you? How do they ask you everything that you’ve just opened up for them?
39:03
Sheila: So, I have a website, which is brennandivorcecoach.com. And I have email, which is sheila@ brennandivorcecoach.com. But the best way for people to get in touch with me is by text. And that number is 484-254-4148. I offer a complimentary call to anybody, everybody. But the best way is if you text me, and I never miss a text ever.
39:38
Stephanie: Awesome, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
39:44
Sheila: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
39:50
Stephanie: Well, Kevin, I just enjoy Sheila so much, because she really gets it, the practicalities of it all, what was your biggest takeaway?
39:57
Kevin: So, my biggest takeaway is how she views divorce coaching as almost a microcosm of what we do. As retirement planners, it is developing a plan and have goals. But also understand that the ideal plan isn’t necessarily going to probably not going to work out, how you’re going to adjust what the worst-case scenario looks like, what the middle ground looks like. And like I said, it encapsulates what we do as well. I wasn’t prepared to hear that.
40:38
Stephanie: What I love is that she really is kind of separating the emotional stuff from the logistical stuff. Like, the example of the woman who just took the summer to get her whole head around it. And then she was in a position to come back and work with Sheila, and make the plan, really looking at all the logistical pieces of this very complicated contract that those of us who are married have entered, maybe without realizing it. I also liked that she said, a good preparation point is to work on your negotiating skills. And I want to remind listeners that back in episode 26, we had Kathleen Burns Kingsbury on, and she was talking about the importance of negotiating skills for women, and she actually was offering a class on just that topic.
41:26
Kevin: That’s good. I would also add that when we were talking about beneficiaries and wanting to make sure that your children inherit the money even If you do remarry, and a lot of complications and how that can, frankly, blow up in your face. Episode 31, when we’re talking about trusts, trusts can be an overly excessive complication at times. But they also serve a purpose and trying to navigate mixed families and multiple spouses and trying to be fair and equitable on that. This is one of those times that that could come into play. So, I would encourage people to listen to that episode as well.
42:13
Stephanie: Yep. One of the things that I am always talking about with financial planning is that because money touches all the most important parts of our lives, all the most personal things, the things that are dear to us, then you want to be able to talk with someone about all that stuff when you come up with a plan. And that’s exactly what Sheila does write, she says, ‘The divorce touches everything that’s most dear to you.’ So, you want to talk to someone about all those pieces and come up with a plan so that you can get through the miserable legal part, as you know, relatively intact as possible. And in the end, it does save money. If you’re not calling the lawyer with every little question, if you’re instead calling your divorce coach or, another kind of ancillary professional, like she was saying, Put your team together, it can save a lot of money in the end.
43:07
Kevin: Yes, that’s actually a really good point. Because this is emotional. I mean, you can try to be as stoic about this as you want that we’re just going to focus on the numbers or whatever. But there is a lot of emotions, this is a significant part of your life. And I’m sure some lawyers are going to be good about handling helping you with that emotional part. But I would think somebody who’s used to dealing with this is probably going to be a better person to lean on.
43:40
Stephanie: For someone maybe who has a lower hourly rate.
43:42
Kevin: Especially somebody with a lower hourly rate.
43:45
Stephanie: We hope you’re enjoying this mini-series on divorce. Keep listening, as we’ll have a couple more episodes with other interesting professionals who touch on this topic. Thanks for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.
43:59
Kevin: And it’s goodbye from her.
44:03
Stephanie: Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and More information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only, Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.
44:17
Disclaimer: Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material, are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice, or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor, prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.
