Paula Harris (00:00):

So, just said, “Okay, who have you talked to? What’s your support? Would your family be of support? Community? Have you talked to the priest?” And so, just trying to give her options to help her without … you’re not passing judgment, you’re asking and you’re trying to open up their mind so they can find their own solutions.

Paula Harris (00:20):

And then sometimes, you have to nudge a little, but I think, like you said, Kevin, when you are able to just have them say something, the light goes off: “Oh yeah, you’re right. That doesn’t seem to make sense.” Or “I could do this in a different way.”

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:43):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:18):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:07):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:19):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:20):

Today, we are going to talk to my friend Paula Harris. Paula is a co-founder at WH Cornerstone Investments. She’s part financial planner and part dream architect who takes great pride in helping her clients, particularly widowed women, obtain financial peace of mind while they get back on their feet, rise up, and navigate their path forward.

Stephanie McCullough (02:41):

As you’ll hear, she’s got a TEDx talk out there and two books, one called Rise Up: A Widow’s Journal, and one, Rise Up: A Grief Journal. They are both available in all the places. And she enjoys assisting people with the life planning that goes hand in hand with financial planning. I love how she puts that. We’re going to dive into our conversation with Paula.

Stephanie McCullough (03:06):

Paula Harris, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Paula Harris (03:09):

I’m so excited to be with you, Stephanie and Kevin, thank you for the invitation.

Stephanie McCullough (03:13):

Oh, it’s great. I think one of the main things that appealed to me to talk to you about is your work and the book on widows, and the widow’s journey and supporting widows. Tell us how that came about. How did you come to write a book about this?

Paula Harris (03:33):

Yeah, so the book is called Rise Up: A Widow’s Journey, and it’s actually more of a journal. So, it’s broken into the stages of grief. So, when you find yourself suddenly single — and what I’ve done is I’ve taken 20 inspirational quotes and put them into each chapter, and then I have writing prompts at the beginning of the chapter to help people work through what they’re feeling, your overwhelming grief.

Paula Harris (03:59):

And then it’s sort of like when does this end? Well, guess what? Grief has no timeframe. And for some people, it can be shorter; for some people, they may never get through grief. And just sort of take them through key times in life, like leaning into your faith, talking about money, talking about moving forward, and then you’re back on your own.

Paula Harris (04:23):

And actually, have a butterfly image that goes through in the cocoon to the point where the butterfly flies away. And the inspiration for this was actually, I took a course with Jack Canfield, and he had written the Chicken Soup for the Soul. And I said, “Oh, I know what I’m going to do. I’m going to gather all these stories of all the widows that I’ve known,” and then I started to launch out on that.

Paula Harris (04:46):

And guess what? People don’t want to tell their stories. And so, I got one person that said, “I’ll share.” And then I was like, “This is going to be hard.” So, then I’m like, okay, what can I control? And I love quotes. Always gathering quotes. And I had been gifted a book, a gentleman who sent a quote to his father every week while he was going through cancer treatment.

Stephanie McCullough (05:07):

Oh, wow.

Paula Harris (05:08):

And then he took that and put it into a book. It’s called Courage, a gentleman named Matthew Kelly. And that was part of the inspiration for doing this too. One of the things with widows or someone who’s grieving, we all say, “Let me know if you need anything,” which is one of the most useless things you can say because this person is in such a stage of life that they don’t know what to ask for.

Paula Harris (05:33):

They don’t want to be a burden to anyone. They are just overwhelmed. And people mean well, but it’s just not helpful. And the other thing, we’re talking about tips for widows, for anyone in grief — we all want to rush to bring them a casserole, something to eat, but everybody’s doing that. Or we want to send flowers.

Paula Harris (05:54):

So, the two things to think about when someone’s died is maybe appetite’s not so big, and they can’t process all this food, and then it goes to waste. Sometimes they can freeze it, but it becomes like another death. You’re getting rid of this food, and the same thing with flowers. You give people all these flowers, and then they have to maintain them, and then they die, and it sort of becomes another remembrance.

Paula Harris (06:18):

So, I’m very careful not to do those types of things. And that’s why I love giving the journal, because the journal, people can pick up when they want, when they need to. Some people can’t do it right away. And I can share stories, which I’ll give you a chance to ask more questions, how people have used it. It’s been really impactful, and it stays around, and it’s a great way to help somebody.

Kevin Gaines (06:43):

So, for the, “Let me know if you need anything,” how do you ask? Because frankly, a lot of times, we don’t know what the grieving party/parties need both either short-term or long-term.

Paula Harris (06:59):

So, one way to think about it is say it’s someone and they’re in your community, and you know that either you have to take your trash to the dump transfer station or that you got to put barrels out at the street. You could say, “I can come over Saturday at 8:00 AM to take your trash. Would that be helpful?”

Paula Harris (07:17):

So, give them something specific that you can do. I could walk your dog for you while you are doing X, Y, Z. I’m really handy and I could hang up your Christmas lights. So, think about specific things that you can do. So, if it’s somebody that’s further away, is, “Would it be okay if I check in on you on Tuesdays at 10:00 AM with a phone call?” My mother has someone who calls her every Sunday morning to remember to go to this certain meeting, that is so helpful as she has sort of some memory issues.

Paula Harris (07:48):

So, finding something where maybe you had a connection. So, a friend of mine, her husband died suddenly in October, and we all went to the same mass at 7:30 on Sundays. So, I would text her saying, “I’m going to the 7:30 if you’d like to join me.” She has yet to join me, but she says, “Thank you.” It gives us a reason to talk.

Paula Harris (08:10):

So, finding something specific — “I know that eating alone might be hard, could I bring over a meal that we could share together?” Because having time with someone becomes something important because they’re so isolated. And one of the things that anyone who’s grieving, especially someone who’s lost a spouse, is people don’t know what to say, so they say nothing.

Stephanie McCullough (08:30):

Oh, yes.

Paula Harris (08:30):

They go through sort of another loss of the contact of people around them. We’re in such fear of making a mistake that we do nothing. So, better to say something like, “If you need anything, let me know” than to say nothing. But giving something specific is a much better offering.

Stephanie McCullough (08:49):

I found myself getting in that saying nothing because I don’t want to say something insensitive or to … this is one that I’ve been told is wrong. So, see, what you think. I’m worried about reminding them or kind of bringing it up again, and that feels inappropriate.

Paula Harris (09:07):

So, I wouldn’t worry about that because the person may not be physically here, but they’re not erased from the world. They’re still someone that is sort of an active part of their life, even if they’re not physically here — people want to talk about them, they want to share stories. They don’t want them to be forgotten.

Paula Harris (09:30):

So, this friend that we went to church together, it was so important that we talk about him. And I even reached out one time to one of his children and just said, “Hey, I want to share some stories. I knew your dad from a business perspective and a friendship, and I want to just share some stories we had.” And he’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve never heard those stories.”

Paula Harris (09:47):

So, to be able to give another perspective into someone’s life. So, I think people will say, “I want to talk about them.” And especially around anniversary dates, whether it be a wedding date, a birthday, and a death date: “Hey, can we grab a cup of coffee and share some stories about Bob? About Sam?” I think that’s wonderful. People like stories.

Stephanie McCullough (10:11):

Yes, it’s true. It’s true. It gives you a chance to remember the good times and chuckle a bit.

Paula Harris (10:17):

Yeah, absolutely. And even the challenging times, sometimes they’re good to remember too.

Stephanie McCullough (10:22):

That’s true. So, Paula, I don’t think you yourself have been widowed, right?

Paula Harris (10:26):

I have not.

Stephanie McCullough (10:27):

So, how did this come to be a thing for you?

Paula Harris (10:30):

Yeah, so there’s sort of two things. My grandmother, Mary, was widowed at 50. So, my grandfather died a year after I was born, so I have no memory of him. So, I saw this woman spend the next 25 years on her own, and she lived in a three family, I think supported herself by the rents of the other units. She got really involved in her community; she ran all the travel trips for the senior center and did great things that way. And she seemed to always have a full life.

Paula Harris (11:02):

So, I was always exposed to a widowed woman. And then when I got into the business that I have now today, wealth management with my husband, Bill, one of our first clients, Mrs. Sullivan was widowed, and I actually went to school with one of her kids. And ironically, my husband went to school with one of her kids, totally different parts of the city and all that stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (11:24):

Oh funny.

Paula Harris (11:25):

It was so rewarding to work with her. She needed help. She just needed a lot of handholding, and we were able to do some really cool things to help pass on some legacy to financially end stories to the next generations. And two generations later, they’re still benefiting from the things she did and that we helped her do. And that was just rewarding. So, we decided after a few years, we wanted to work more with widows. Just a very rewarding group of people.

Paula Harris (11:55):

And I’m willing to go talk about, and just say … sometimes we are saying what to say and not to say — one of the best things you can say is, “I have no words. I don’t know what to say.” Another not to say is “I’m sorry” because you can’t be any more sorry than the person that lost, but we all tend to go, “So sorry.” And one of the things I often will say is, “My heart is heavy for you.”

Stephanie McCullough (12:18):

Oh, that’s nice.

Paula Harris (12:19):

Yeah. I try to find other ways to phrase, “Sorry.”

Kevin Gaines (12:23):

Since we’re talking about bad phrases, please comment on “He or she’s in a better place,” or “At least he and she’s not suffering anymore.” I’ve had to go through more than a few of those—-

Paula Harris (12:36):

Most people aren’t there to hear that. They would rather hang on to someone, they want them here kind of no matter what. So, trying to avoid saying that… And I did a couple years ago, and I don’t know if you guys are familiar with Amy Florian of Coregenius?

Stephanie McCullough (12:53):

She’s wonderful.

Paula Harris (12:54):

Yeah. I went to her training years ago on helping grieving people, and that was really helpful. And she’s got some books. She’s got a great workbook-

Stephanie McCullough (13:03):

Right there on my shelf.

Paula Harris (13:05):

Yeah, excellent. We have it in our office too, and I think it’s so helpful to go through that to remind ourselves of like, oh yeah, sensitivity.

Stephanie McCullough (13:14):

Yeah, no, she’s got a lot of great advice, but I like your idea of just saying, “I have no words. I don’t know what to say,” but you’re standing next to the person ideally, or even on the phone, you’re there with them, and you’re opening up space for them to then say something, right? It’s making that human connection and allowing them to feel like you are ready to hear what they want to say, if anything.

Paula Harris (13:43):

Right! So, I have two superpowers. One is writing handwritten notes, and the second one is giving great hugs. I go to a lot of wakes and funerals because I know a lot of people. So, sometimes, it’s just a hug in that receiving line, and you just hold onto someone, knowing that you’ll probably see them another time too. Sometimes words aren’t needed. It’s that physical touch. You think about a widow or widower, they miss that physical touch if they don’t have people around them. If they’ve got grandkids and kids, they may get that still.

Paula Harris (14:16):

But somebody who’s older — there’s a man at church that I see, and on Mother’s Day, I could just see … he lost his wife in December, and he looked lost. So, I went and sat with him after mass ended, and I said, “Can I just sit with you for a while?” And he says, “But you might have things to do.” I said, “No, I just want to be with you.”

Paula Harris (14:33):

I put my arm around him, and he told me how his son came over the day before and they went to the cemetery and they’re getting ready to pick out her headstone. And I learned he only has one son and one grandchild, and they live a couple towns over, but he’s lonely.

Paula Harris (14:49):

And it was just being there with him. He’s like, “Thank you, thank you so much.” And actually, I have another version of my journal called Rise Up: A Grief Journal for a man, for someone who lost a child, someone’s got a diagnosis because grief happens when you’re not yourself. For some people, retirement’s a stage of grief, especially if it was forced on them. So, I gave him a copy of that, and he was like, “Thank you, thank you.”

Stephanie McCullough (15:18):

Talk about the isolation because I think it seems obvious on the face of it, but I don’t know that we really appreciate unless you’ve seen someone go through it up close.

Paula Harris (15:30):

I think a lot of times, there’s sort of two versions. People will immediately isolate and just push people away. I think of one of my friends, she does not want to be around anyone but family really. She has got a routine, and we’re in garden club together and she just isn’t ready to come back to group settings. So, she keeps her world smaller. And I think the more you do that, the harder it gets sometimes to break out and come back into the world.

Paula Harris (15:57):

And sometimes, it takes people years. I can think of one client, and she is not a joiner. So, she is home a lot, and she does have a little dog, so that brings her comfort. But some people like to have a small world.

Paula Harris (16:10):

And then also the opposite. I have a friend whose husband died in November, and we went out to dinner. I don’t know, within two weeks, she was out everywhere. She was taking every invitation, she just didn’t want to be home. She was angry because he had been diagnosed in March, and they thought they had a couple of years, and he died very quickly. So, she was having a really hard time.

Paula Harris (16:35):

Another friend whose husband had been sick for 20 years with MS that progressed really aggressively to the point where it was pretty much immobile. She too, was ready to go out and do things.

Stephanie McCullough (16:50):

So, if someone seems like they’re retreating willingly, do you worry about crossing the line when you don’t want to insert yourself? But is that where you do the kind of regular check-ins or-

Paula Harris (17:01):

Yeah, I would do the regular check-ins, and this one friend one day I just stopped at her house, and I ended up being there an hour, and her daughter was there and her granddaughter. And it was fine, but I think if I had tried to plan it, it wouldn’t have happened. But I was getting really worried and I was like, “I just need to see you, and I need to give you a hug.”

Paula Harris (17:19):

Obviously, how close you are to the person — the person I see at the grocery store, I wouldn’t just go do that. But I do always make a point of reaching out to people that I know not even well, and I always try to bring it up, kind of take the elephant out of the room, like you know their spouse passed, say something, don’t pretend it didn’t happen.

Paula Harris (17:40):

“So, Bob, how are you doing today?”

Stephanie McCullough (17:43):

Right. Because then Bob’s like, ugh!

Paula Harris (17:43):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (17:46):

What are the other big challenges that maybe people don’t think of, again, if they haven’t seen someone go through this up close, losing a spouse? What are the other big — not just the money stuff, right, because we all live in the money world. But what are the other things that maybe even the professionals aren’t aware of?

Paula Harris (18:06):

I think obviously, there’s stages to grief, so that people will be in different periods of time. The friend that was out doing everything, she said to me … I had a gathering last week, I started a group called Rise Up, and I get people together two or three times a year, and she said to me, “I just want to let you know I’m not that angry, bitter woman I was a few months ago.” She’s like she’s getting to acceptance. She was in denial and anger, and she’s now more to acceptance.

Paula Harris (18:35):

And I think it’s remembering that what you saw at the beginning may not be what you would see two months, three months, a year, two years. Someone’s going to evolve along their journey, so maybe they push you away in the beginning, it’s okay to keep coming back. And I think remembering they’re a whole person, they have interests as well.

Paula Harris (18:58):

And I think one other thing that sort of surprised me was one time one of our clients said, “I would take him back in a second, I love him dearly, but I’m actually getting to do my own thing now. I’m making different choices. We used to sit and have a drink every night when he came home, I didn’t really want to do that, but it became our thing, and now, I don’t do that.”

Paula Harris (19:19):

So, sometimes somebody who they were in that couple may be different, and that’s okay. They’re kind of spreading their wings, they’re rediscovering.

Paula Harris (19:31):

There’s a couple of women I know that have lost their spouse and they’re really getting into fly fishing and I’m into fly fishing, so I make sure I invite them-

Stephanie McCullough (19:36):

Fly fishing, okay, that’s interesting.

Paula Harris (19:40):

That’s a whole another topic.

Stephanie McCullough (19:40):

That’s so cool. And you don’t live in Montana?

Paula Harris (19:43):

No, no, but I’m actually going on a trip to Belize, fly fishing with a woman who is 75, lost her husband three years ago, had never picked up a fly fishing rod, and now, she’s an avid fly fisher woman, and she’s gone to … there’s this place called Christmas Island, which is sort out near Hawaii. It’s hardcore fishing.

Paula Harris (20:05):

There is no accommodations. You’re sleeping in sleeping bags and not nice places. She’s been there twice. She is just embracing life in another way. She’s like, “I want to do things.” And so, try to expose people to other new hobbies, other people who are doing things that they might like doing. Again, that’s an example of like three years ago, didn’t even fly fish, and in the mid-seventies, picks up this and she’s running this trip.

Stephanie McCullough (20:35):

Love it. That’s going to be really cool.

Paula Harris (20:36):

I’ve had conversations with people like, “Hey, it’s been three years and I’m ready to date.” That’s been interesting. I had a conversation the other night, I had 10 people together, 10 women and some dating, some, “Never again! I am not going to be a nursemaid to someone, a caretaker,” especially people who’ve been down the journey-

Stephanie McCullough (21:00):

A cook-

Paula Harris (21:02):

A cook, yeah. Talking to a client the other day, she’s like, “I still have my man friend, and he keeps asking me to marry him, but I keep saying no” because she’s like, “We’re together from eight in the morning until nine at night.” And I said, “But you still have your own place to go back to.”

Paula Harris (21:16):

And I think people start to realize, I’m okay. Sometimes some people are okay being alone and others — another woman I know, she’s like, “I’ve been on five dates already.” Some people can’t be alone. So, still put your lens on their world.

Stephanie McCullough (21:30):

There you go. That’s a big one.

Paula Harris (21:33):

This is going to touch on the money thing. One of the things I think you have to be real careful — often when someone has lost a spouse, people see them as a purse. Have you heard that, don’t be a purse?

Stephanie McCullough (21:48):

No, what does that mean?

Paula Harris (21:50):

So, sometimes with death, there comes life insurance, and somebody has sort of that sudden money and it’s like, “Oh mom, I need a new car.” It’s kind of like they see this availability of more money and they start asking for more things.

Stephanie McCullough (22:09):

That’s awful.

Paula Harris (22:10):

It is awful. And the grieving person knows that the other family members are at loss too, and they feel terrible. And I think about a friend whose husband died when their daughter was still in high school just going off to college, and she gave her a credit card to use at school that she used all the time to get her nails done. It wasn’t just like to get books.

Paula Harris (22:35):

In the end, she ended up getting addicted to drugs. She had gone to become a nurse, and she lost her nursing license over this. She needed more boundaries. But in the phase of grief that sometimes a parent’s in, they don’t want to add to the grief of the child. So, they give no boundaries when someone needs boundaries more than anything. I feel so bad that their father’s not here anymore, so I give and give and give.

Paula Harris (23:04):

You have to be really careful that you don’t put yourself in financial jeopardy, and you don’t enable people to do things that aren’t helpful for them long-term. We want people to be sustainable on their own. They don’t want to become dependent and being that person.

Paula Harris (23:20):

I also will say to be careful — nonprofits, obviously scammers, people come and, “Oh, your husband told me that he would make this donation for this.” People can play on people. So, you have to be real careful and being sensitive yourself that you don’t play into it and watching.

Paula Harris (23:45):

If you have to give some guidance sometimes — I think as advisors sometimes, we probably can step into that role and say, “Geez, I’m seeing a pattern. Can you tell me more about this? What’s going on?” And open the door for that discussion. I think that’s a key one.

Stephanie McCullough (24:02):

Well, and maybe if a listener has a friend where they might be seeing a pattern, would you suggest maybe you could find a financial professional to talk to or work with? Or do you talk to your advisor about this or …?

Paula Harris (24:15):

Yes, I think opening up the conversation in some way. Do you have family, you can talk about this, an advisor? Tell me more what’s going on. And I think our world has gotten to the point where we are so like … I’m in my lane, don’t worry about anyone else. I think about growing up and Mrs. So-and-So would yell over the fence, “Don’t you do that.”

Stephanie McCullough (24:37):

The village was raising the children.

Paula Harris (24:40):

You had the sort of neighborhood keeping everyone in check, and now we’re all like, “Nope, I’m sticking my lane.” And we’ve lost that community feel where people cared about each other. And instead of saying like, “Ooh, someone else will do it.” Don’t be afraid that if you have to be the one to speak up, notice, comment — we all need that support sometimes.

Kevin Gaines (25:01):

And I think it’s important. It sounds like you’re saying have the conversation. You’re not saying come down on them saying, “Oh my God, I can’t believe you’re doing X, Y, and Z.” It’s just let it get out, let it verbalize. And sometimes, just saying it out loud, they all of a sudden realize.

Paula Harris (25:18):

Right, the light goes off.

Kevin Gaines (25:19):

Oh, wait a second.

Paula Harris (25:21):

Yeah, this is not so much on a widow, but I had a woman come in recently who’s like … I’ve known that she and her husband have not had a good relationship for a long time, and she’s like, “The time has come.” So, I just said, “Okay, who have you talked to? What’s your support? Would your family be of support, community? Have you talked to the priest?”

Paula Harris (25:43):

And so, just trying to give her options to help her without … you’re not passing judgment, and you’re trying to open up their mind so they can find their own solutions. And then sometimes, you have to nudge a little, but I think, like you said, Kevin, when you are able to just have them say something, the light goes off: “Oh yeah, you’re right. That doesn’t seem to make sense.” Or “I could do this in a different way.”

Stephanie McCullough (26:10):

I like that question; who do you have that can support you or who is your support? Because then you might find out your neighbor has one kid, and they live all the way across the country and nobody’s checking in on them.

Paula Harris (26:21):

Yep, absolutely. And then use your friend network. So, one of the friends who lost her husband, the other friend would be like, “Okay, have you talked to her? I talked to her.” So, we had a couple of people sort of coming at different angles. “You got her this week, or you got her this day, I won’t bother her.” So, sometimes, you kind of do the team approach to support people.

Kevin Gaines (26:41):

I like what you were talking about, having the circle of support coordinating the activities or the interaction, and this gets back to the proverbial casseroles, and I’ve seen this personally a few times, where yes, you don’t want to have to find space in the refrigerator for 12 different casserole pans, and obviously, you don’t want to go back.

Kevin Gaines (27:10):

But everybody getting together and saying, okay, I’m bringing food over this day, knowing two days later, alright, I’ll bring this over. Because again, people get appetites. If they do have appetites, it’s going to be at weird times and not having to worry about-

Paula Harris (27:26):

A couple tips or two, remember they don’t need food in the first five days. They need some, but they need food in a month or two months. And I had a friend who said to me, “I never send a card until a month later, a sympathy card. I always make sure I’ve read the obituary first or I’ve gone to the services. And then, I write something that I experienced at the services in the card.” And I was like, “That’s beautiful.” Because I try to send it right away often because I just, I want them to be acknowledged right away.

Paula Harris (28:02):

And I’ve actually started to hold back sending people a copy of the journals for like a month. Because again, those first few weeks, you’re just overwhelmed. And I think that’s the thing to remember, is showing up at month 1, 2, 3, 4 because everybody goes back to their lives after the initial grief. Like the first week, and then I’m off to the soccer tournament or whatever it is that we do in our life, we tend to forget, and the next crisis comes along.

Stephanie McCullough (28:31):

That is hard to remember. I was just thinking like, “Oh yeah, my friend’s father passed away.” It’s probably six months ago, and I might have spoken to the friend, but not about that recently.

Paula Harris (28:43):

I mentioned that I have two superpowers; the first one was hugs, and the second one is the handwritten notes. I love writing handwritten notes. So, sympathy cards are very meaningful to me. And trying to capture a story. And I’m going to tie this into going through the line of a wake — somebody’s mother who I was on a committee with, so I didn’t ever have that chance to meet her mother. And I learned this from Amy Florian, it was like asking people, “Tell me a story about Mary.”

Paula Harris (29:15):

So, at the end of the receiving line was the deceased brother. He lit up when I asked this question, and they had a special needs sister, and he told me about how his sister cared so much for their special needs sister and all the things. He must have talked to me for 15 minutes, telling me stories. And it was so beautiful. How much more rich it is to then write the handwritten note, the sympathy card based on those stories. And I’ve made it a point to go back and tell my friend Linda, how much joy I got hearing about her mom through her uncle, and then putting that in writing.

Paula Harris (30:01):

I did a TED Talk called Low Tech Love: The Power of the Handwritten Note. And I talk about widow gets that sympathy card, it’s a lifeline. It’s not just a sympathy card. It’s something she can hold and touch and she can keep looking at for days, weeks, in those dark despair moments. She can read those memories. And I think back to my friend again, her husband was very visible in the community. How many stories … the whole family learned through this process. He was involved with many nonprofits, and I actually knew a number of his siblings. And I shared stories with them, they had no idea.

Paula Harris (30:40):

They had no idea the things he did, because I served with him in a business setting as well, I had seen so much, and they were just blown away to hear the stories, and I put them in writing. And it’s like they’re very special, those handwritten notes. And people will always say, “Oh my gosh, my handwriting’s so terrible.” Don’t worry about it, when you write from the heart, it comes through. To say, you just lean into your heart, and you’ll find the right things.

Stephanie McCullough (31:09):

And you say in your TED Talk that the imperfections are part of what makes the note so human and such a source of connection.

Paula Harris (31:17):

Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (31:18):

Someone can pick it up and read it again and again, and maybe at 3:00 AM.

Paula Harris (31:22):

Yeah, because the text emoji or the Facebook emoji of our hands, they just don’t really fill that hole that you have. It just doesn’t do it. And Kevin, it sounds like you’ve had some loss in your life, and I’m sure you’ve probably gotten a hug or a prayer emoji. How did it make you feel?

Kevin Gaines (31:40):

Well, it’s not permanent. I mean, that’s what sticks with me, is the note. I mean, yeah, fine, you can throw the notes away if you don’t care, but you can also hold onto them and you always have them, as you were saying, you could go back later. I mean, how many of us can really go back to a text? Really can’t.

Kevin Gaines (32:01):

Or what really struck me earlier you were talking about legacy and the journal and writing down the thoughts and the stories. And I was thinking, again, in an electronic world, you really don’t do that. I mean, you don’t pass on an email down the generations.

Paula Harris (32:23):

No, it’s so true. I did my TED Talk, and one guy brought a framed letter from his great, great grandfather from the late 1800s. And he had this letter, and I was like, “Wow, this is so cool.” It was like piece of history.

Paula Harris (32:40):

And you are not going to save every one of them. But I remember my in-laws, they both passed away a week apart at the end of 2022. And so, cards poured in like for weeks. And it took me a year and I sat down, and I went through, and I read them all. And then I made the decision I’ll keep this one, let that one go. But it was like wow, to just kind of go back and see who stepped up and who remembered.

Paula Harris (33:05):

And the other thing that’s really surprising, sometimes it’s the people that are closest to you that back away. And it’s the angels that come out of the woodwork that you knew, but they just show up in a special way.

Paula Harris (33:22):

And it makes me think of, there were two women in my town, both who lost her husbands in their late 40s, early 50s. And another woman just lost her husband in her late 50s, and they took her to lunch. They had a mutual connection. They didn’t know each other well, but they had worked in the schools or something. And to have them say, “Hey, we’ve been on this road, here’s some things you might need to know or just we’re here to support you.” And that’s why I love doing this rise up community, because it’s just, “You know what, you’re not alone. Hey, this person’s going through something similar and let me introduce you.” And you don’t have to become best friends, but maybe you go to dinner once in a while just because you need someone who gets you on the journey.

Stephanie McCullough (34:06):

Even if the journey and the circumstances are very different, I just feel like that person can listen to you and appreciate in a different way than someone who hasn’t lived it.

Paula Harris (34:16):

Absolutely. So, as advisors, we hold a very special role in our clients’ lives. And being there for them during these really vulnerable moments for me, I think is the most rewarding part of the job. Money is money, another return here, it’s really not at the core of things. The core of it is to help people live a better life and having the tools to help them get there is really what it’s all about.

Kevin Gaines (34:48):

At the risk of pulling my shoulder out of joint trying to pat myself/us on the back — here we are three financial advisors, we’ve been talking for what? 30, 40 minutes at this point, at least edited. Listeners, you don’t know how long we’ve actually been talking. That’s the beauty of editing. But I mean, we’ve talked about money, what, 30 seconds? I mean we talked about not being a purse and that was less about money and more about interacting and guilt, and being taken advantage of.

Kevin Gaines (35:21):

So, yes, that is, I think the advantage of having people in your life. You might think of financial advisors as being “disinterested” which far from the truth, but we are like a step away from the immediate family. But there is a lot of purpose I think we serve or can serve if we’re doing this the right way. That’s really not a question, but please feel free to tell me how right I am.

Paula Harris (35:50):

I’m going to pat you on the back right now. I think it’s true. I love the interview you guys use for your podcast, which sort of the geeky side. The number’s geeky and then the quantitative, qualitative, because that’s the way we play those roles in our business too. I always say I’m people person, you’re a spreadsheet guy. But we have to have all these sides, whether you can have it yourself or you have to bring it in through a team, it’s so much more important.

Paula Harris (36:20):

I remember, this was a horrible story. A client had life insurance. The guy had gone to college with the husband and the wife, and he immediately started to try to get her to buy another policy: “You don’t need a policy on yourself, your kids are grown, you don’t need this.” He tried all these tactics. He actually called the adult daughter to say, “Your mother’s making bad decisions” twice.

Paula Harris (36:46):

So, I think about somebody in that world, that’s the financial services world that’s like that’s not a heart-centered advisor, that’s an opportunistic person. And those people, they’re around and we just have to shine brighter than them.

Kevin Gaines (37:04):

Actually, as you’re telling that story, I guarantee you, us and every other financial advisor who’s listening to this, we can all picture two or three. It’s like yeah, I’ve run into that guy, or I remember her always doing … they exist.

Paula Harris (37:17):

Yeah. And the delicate balance in that situation is, okay, she’s fragile, she’s like who do I trust? We’ve been in her life for a while, he’s been in her life for a while, and we have the college connection, and my husband trusted him enough to do this — I don’t know what to do. And you know as a fiduciary, you’re like, “This is not right.” But you don’t want to be too heavy-handed because if you’re too heavy-handed, that can push someone away too.

Paula Harris (37:46):

And it’s like reasoning with someone at a time when they are in brain fog, it’s hard. Hard to do this, and finally prevailed. And the interesting thing is, like say two years later, she was at a reunion, we saw a lot of people and name came up and people said, “I had to push him out of my life. I had to step away. He did that to me. He did this, he did that.” And she was like, “Oh, the validation was there, but then it really came years later.” So, it’s, yeah how do we gently push? Because we’re not trying to take advantage of someone, but you’re trying to guide them to make the best decision possible.

Stephanie McCullough (38:24):

Well said. So, Paula, how can people find out more about what you’ve got to offer? What you do in the world? How can they find … well, obviously, we have links to the TED Talk and your books in our notes. But yeah, tell people.

Paula Harris (38:39):

So, through our website, whcornerstoneinvestments.com. And then I also have a YouTube channel, which is more of a personal passion project, which is Paula Harris Wisdom Wednesday. So, I try to put out a nugget for two, three minutes, four minutes long of just getting people to think of something a little different in the world, and try to bring more positivity.

Paula Harris (38:59):

I started it during the pandemic when everybody was living in fear, and I am not someone who embraces fear. Which is actually about the time we met Stephanie, was during the pandemic on Zoom, which was really cool. So, that’s another place to check in and get to know more.

Stephanie McCullough (39:15):

Love it.

Stephanie McCullough (39:16):

Thank you so much for being with us today. We really appreciate your time.

Paula Harris (39:19):

Thank you, Stephanie and Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (39:20):

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (39:25):

I love having Paula on and I’ve met her in professional things, and we’ve never actually spoken for this long about this expertise of hers, and this depth of experience of how many people she has seen and helped and supported going through the process of losing people but particularly losing a spouse. She had a lot of wisdom to share and I’m really glad that she shared it with us.

Kevin Gaines (39:50):

I think the big takeaway really is if somebody in your life is the, what would you call primary griever (I’m not sure if that’s the right word or not),but being there and showing up as opposed to assuming, oh, it has to go this way, or something like that — just let them know you’re there.

Stephanie McCullough (40:13):

Your presence. Yeah, I love her comment, “Don’t put your lens on their world, imagining how we might feel in a certain situation, we have no idea how they’re feeling.” So, her point about asking the questions, opening the conversation instead of kind of, “Oh, you must be feeling this way.” Or “You probably want this because that’s what I would want.” We can’t know, and that doesn’t mean we should not engage. To your point, show up, be present.

Kevin Gaines (40:47):

Yeah. And everybody’s different, everybody has different needs. As you said, everybody has different needs at different times. I mean, you might be fine the first month or two, but then after all of the excitement, for lack of a better word, dies down.

Stephanie McCullough (41:04):

All the activity perhaps.

Kevin Gaines (41:06):

That might be a slightly more sensitive way to phrase it. Not that I’m insensitive but well, I am. But then when everything quiets down, that’s when the quiet hits and being around two, three months down the road might be more important than being there two or three hours after the fact.

Stephanie McCullough (41:24):

People go back to their lives and the grieving party is left alone with their grief. Her question about too asking, “Who is your support?” If it’s someone who’s you’re not super close to, but you want to be able to help, I think yes, you can learn something about how you might be able to plug yourself in and help out, but also it maybe helps the person that you’re trying to support reflect on, oh yeah, maybe I could turn to this person or maybe the professionals in my life aren’t giving me the kind of support I’m looking for.

Kevin Gaines (42:03):

But I do want to touch on the other subject that Paula is really passionate about, which is the written word. I mean, because I really do think in this age in which we yet live in, that you do lose a lot by not doing handwritten notes or communication.

Kevin Gaines (42:29):

It is, at least for me personally (I mean everybody could be different) — but text messages and emails just don’t have the same connection, as far as saving, doesn’t have the same longevity in my life. And I think that’s something to think about.

Stephanie McCullough (42:48):

And trying to put something a little bit personal in that. I love her thought about, if you’re going to the service, write your note afterwards and maybe share something that struck you at the service or a story you heard or an interaction that you had. And that’s going to be maybe the cards that people turn to again later when they’re needing a little bit of comfort.

Kevin Gaines (43:09):

I mean, I know it’s cliche and we were bashing cliches earlier, but it is the thought that counts.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (43:15):

Yeah, there you have it people, we hope you’ve found this insightful and useful. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (43:22):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (43:25):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (43:40):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.