Jess Bost (00:00):

In the beginning, figuring out who each person is as a financial partner is a very important place to start. Like you can’t just assume something about the other person because it’s a biblical truth or because it’s a universal truth. You need to know who you are. How do you manage money? How do you handle money? How do you How would you handle this situation? Those are really important conversations to be had from the jump and to continue to have throughout and to see who needs to be the one managing the money and making the decisions and like they’re definitely it’s not specifically one partner or the other.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:48):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:22):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:12):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia this is with Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:22):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:24):

Today, we have a really special treat for you, and it might be a strange word to use. We’re going to hear someone’s very vulnerable story about money, about her relationship, and how money kind of threw things off for a time.

Stephanie McCullough (02:43):

And I say it’s a treat because she is so generous in sharing this story. She’s willing to be very open and kind of bring us behind the scenes into what was going on, because for one, we don’t talk about this stuff enough and I think it might help a lot of people. So, I do hope that you enjoy, and I hope that you share.

Stephanie McCullough (03:02):

Our guest today is Jess Bost. Jess has spent more than 15 years coaching and helping people get from where they are to where they want to be. She’s passionate about empowering people to achieve everything they want out of life.

Stephanie McCullough (03:17):

And if you happen to be a financial advisor and have attended a financial conference in the past couple of years, you may have attended an early morning workout session with Jess because she is the go-to person of choice to lead the early morning yoga session, stretching sessions, CrossFit session, the workout sessions. She’s really quite an amazing human on multiple scores as you’ll find out.

Stephanie McCullough (03:42):

Let’s dive into our conversation with Jess.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (03:48):

Jess Bost, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Jess Bost (03:51):

Thank you. So happy to be here. Oh, so happy.

Stephanie McCullough (03:55):

We so appreciate your being willing to talk about your story with us and with our listeners.

Jess Bost (04:01):

Yeah, we’ll see what we get into today [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. But no, I’m happy to share it. I think a part of the beautiful thing about financial planning for me has been that stories matter.

Jess Bost (04:14):

So, how people got from where they were to where they are now, and where they want to be in the future is sometimes when you see yourself in somebody else’s story, you realize there’s hope and that can be really powerful for people.

Stephanie McCullough (04:26):

Yeah, totally. So, I was going to ask you to start with the story of how you got to financial services.

Jess Bost (04:34):

Oh, okay.

Stephanie McCullough (03:35):

That was a career change, right?

Jess Bost (04:36):

It was a career change. So, I graduated from college with a psychology degree. If you are also, someone who graduated with a psychology degree, I’m sorry, but also welcome. We see all the problems in the world and all the opportunities in the world, yet nobody has given us a degree that we can actually engage.

Stephanie McCullough (04:58):

Ah, yes. My son just did that in May. He graduated with a psychology degree, so.

Jess Bost (05:03):

Yes, no, I had all intentions of going into a master’s degree program, which is kind of what they prepare you for in that field is that in order to engage in the career in that way, you’ve really got to spend a little bit more time in school.

Jess Bost (05:17):

I was prepared for that, but then I got married and started having babies, and so that derailed. I started an MBA program but didn’t finish it.

Jess Bost (05:24):

So, I had a real passion for people. I had a real passion for helping. I think that’s what pulled me into psychology. And so, as soon as I graduated, and I started family planning soon afterward because I was already dating the guy that I ended up marrying.

Jess Bost (05:41):

And so, I did a couple of different things. Like I was in children’s ministry for a while, loved that. I worked one-on-one with kids with autism for a while, loved that. I eventually fell into an opportunity to coach at a CrossFit gym locally and started doing it part-time at first.

Jess Bost (06:00):

But when they asked me to go full-time and start running the gym, I threw both hands up in the air. I was so ready to … I loved so much the experience of working one-on-one with adults. I realized adults allowed me to go home and still be a mom. So, it kind of separated some of the career from life.

Kevin Gaines (06:20):

Interesting.

Jess Bost (06:20):

Yeah, yeah. So, when I was working with kids and children’s ministry and then you know later with kids that were on the spectrum, the overlap was just a lot.

Jess Bost (06:30):

So, again, I got CrossFit, started working with adults, started doing very similar things, you know. Here’s where we’re at, here’s where we want to be, how do we map a plan to get there? [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm] And just absolutely loved it.

Jess Bost (06:43):

So, I dived into CrossFit. I stayed in that field and really just expanded into nutrition coaching, like I did as much as I could inside the field of health and fitness for about eight years. Through that, my husband also, did end up getting his master’s degree in marriage and family therapy.

Jess Bost (07:03):

So, when he, when he graduated, one of the things about that is that (and you’ll find out soon, I guess with your son) there’s a residency type [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm] kind of period after you graduate with your master’s degree where you need supervision and you have to accumulate hours being supervised.

Jess Bost (07:18):

And so, you have to find a program that allows you to do that. And for us, it needed to be a program that paid well enough to help support a family, right. And so, we moved from our little town in North Georgia to Augusta, Georgia because there’s a lot more opportunities there.

Jess Bost (07:35):

And so, I moved to Augusta as well, left my gym, left my CrossFit gym in Rome. And then help, started helping in a gym in Augusta and bringing on just kind of starting to build my clientele back up.

Jess Bost (07:50

Also, kind of knowing my kids are getting a little older, I’m not really sure I want to continue to do this full time. The time that people need you in a gym and health situation are early morning and afternoon [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right]. And the times that your kids need you, especially as they start getting into school, are early mornings and afternoons [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. That’s when they have their activities, and I was starting to miss things.

Jess Bost (08:10):

And so, I didn’t like that at all. That was not part of my plan as a parent to miss those things.

Jess Bost (08:18 ):

And so, I had a client by that time in CrossFit, who was ahmm financial advisor, and he encouraged me to think about financial advice as a pivot.

Stephanie McCullough (08:33):

Excellent.

Jess Bost (08:34):

And this was also, happening at a time … so, we moved to Augusta, we were there for about a year. We moved there for my husband’s job. We moved to Augusta for his job and then a year in, he lost his job.

Jess Bost (08:46):

So, I had been building up slowly working part-time, which was fine for me. I loved being part-time. And yet all of a sudden a year in, the bottom fell out.

Jess Bost (08:55):

And so, I was looking for a way to pivot and start paying bills and start taking care of things. The client that I had was a financial advisor, was a CrossFit client, he was encouraging me in this direction.

Jess Bost (09:08):

I kind of felt it out and realized, hey, this might be a quicker on-ramp with less financial burden [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm! Yeah] if this is something that works out for me.

Jess Bost (09:20):

So, I went to work part-time for him in the front office. I didn’t have any degrees, or any experience, or any skills, or any licenses, or certifications.

Jess Bost (09:27):

And that was kind of his offer to me, was, “Let’s just see if you like it. You know. You can continue to do your CrossFit thing, but then let’s add this during the day when your kids are at school and let’s see how it goes [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].” It went really well. So, I, I worked my way with his firm very quickly. So, I went from front desk to operations, which in some ways we handled trading through that. And then I started accumulating some degrees. And so, I just worked my way up all the way [Stephanie McCullough overcross: What did you like about it? To COO? Wow]

Jess Bost (10:02):

Yeah. Within a few years, yeah. And I liked the opportunity. The thing that mapped over for me so strongly that pulled me in so immediately was that I was still helping people get from where they are to where they wanted to be What did you like about it? To COO?. So, that was a through line for me.

Jess Bost (10:17):

That was what I loved about psychology. That was what I loved about all those you know different work experiences that I had building up to CrossFit. That’s what I loved so much about CrossFit.

Jess Bost (10:28):

And then that just mapped right over to finance. Like you’re still helping people get from where they are to where they want to be. And for me, that was being done during the hours where my kids were at school and giving me a lot more work life flexibility.

Jess Bost (10:42):

And then the financial opportunity there was, I could work myself up to a place where I could provide for my family if I needed to. And I could do that without having to go into debt over another college degree or master’s program.

Jess Bost (10:56):

And so, I took that very seriously because of the aspect of that situation where my husband had … and he found a job but part of that like for the first time, it really terrified me in some ways because we were in this new city, I didn’t have any family support.

Jess Bost (11:13):

Our friends and the community,was– we were building it back up, but we weren’t anywhere near the depth of what we had had previously.

Jess Bost (11:20):

Like I lived in one place my whole life growing up. So, I knew everybody there. And then I moved to Rome to go to school and then we stayed there for 16 years.

Jess Bost (11:30):

And so, Augusta was the first place where I didn’t really know anyone as an adult. And then a year later, the rug got pulled out from under me and I didn’t know anyone. I didn’t have anybody to lean into and I didn’t know who to call.

Jess Bost (11:41):

And so, that was really, really scary and disorienting for me. And I realized I don’t ever want to be in that position again where I can’t provide for my family.

Jess Bost (11:52):

So, as I was looking at into career opportunities, So, I was definitely looking at something that would give me financial freedom independently, regardless of you know what career path or job my husband held. So, that was also, part of it for sure [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Stephanie McCullough (12:11):

So, just note to women listeners, if you’re shopping around for a new career, financial planning, you’re helping people, you’re making a real difference. It can be flexible and financially remunerative.

Jess Bost (12:21):

That’s right.

Stephanie McCullough (12:23):

Keep that in mind. We need you.

Jess Bost (12:26):

Yes. And there’s a lot of different ways to explore the financial services field. So, it may not be client facing and doesn’t have to be, I know a lot of really successful women who are in a support role or who are in, if they like numbers and spreadsheets, they have more of an operations role.

Jess Bost (12:43):

And there’s just a lot of different ways that you can go in this career, which I also appreciated. Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (12:48):

Yes. Alright. Commercial now over. Alright! So, you’d been through some rough times and then there was a new rough thing that happened, right?

Jess Bost (12:56):

Yeah, yeah. So, prior to moving to Augusta, actually, (so I’ll backtrack just a couple of years) [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm] I was working full-time in the gym, my husband was going to or in his master’s program. So, he had school full-time. And I had–because he was doing that, he was mostly the stay-at-home parent during that time.

Jess Bost (13:21):

I was working at the gym, but I was also, doing nutrition coaching. And so, I was working just 12-hour days. I was working all the time. So, I was doing personal training early in the mornings [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. I was just working a lot. And we had kind of divvied that up.

Stephanie McCullough (13:36):

You were the breadwinner.

Jess Bost (13:36):

I was the breadwinner. So, we kind of divvied that up. I would be gone, do the career thing, do all that, and he would be kind of the stay-at-home parent while also working on his master’s degree. And so, as part of that, he was also, handling bill paying and all of that kind of thing. And so, I really just delegated all of that. And so far as I knew, everything was going fine.

Jess Bost (13:57):

And one day, I don’t remember if it was a break or what was going on, I was home. Mail got delivered and I remember seeing an envelope that said third notice, like it had that red stamp on it, yeah.

Kevin Gaines (14:12):

That’s always scary.

Jess Bost (14:14):

Yeah. And there wasn’t just one. But then I flipped through the mail and there was another.

Jess Bost (14:18):

And so, one of them was related to a utility bill and then the other one was a credit card. And when I opened up that credit card, it said $18,000 on it. And my stomach like I don’t know–  immediately just fall into knots. Like I had no idea that we weren’t making it work [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Jess Bost (14:46):

As I dug into it, what I realized, the reason that the utility bill was on a notice was because the credit card was maxed out. Credit card was maxed out because he was paying utility bills on the credit card.

Jess Bost (14:56):

And he was doing all this not because he’s a terrible person, but because he just was trying to make it work. And he didn’t know how to tell me that it wasn’t working because he also wasn’t working. He didn’t feel like he wasn’t contributing, and he didn’t want me to know that what I was doing wasn’t enough.

Stephanie McCullough (15:11):

Oof. Ouch. So many layers.

Jess Bost (15:14):

So many layers. None of that at the time mattered to me. I was so angry at him. Like the thing that just went straight to my heart was — were– my feeling was we’re about to lose it all over your dumb decisions and lack of communication.

Jess Bost (15:34):

So, I was angry. I was so angry. I spent a lot of time being angry and working through that anger. Ah! We separated for a while. We ended up going to a–through like a intensive marriage program that helped me work through some of my anger. Unfortunately, none of that fixed the financial issues [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm].

Jess Bost (16:00):

Fast forward, well, we worked through some of that debt through reaching out to family members, borrowing and doing what we needed to do to stay alive and stay afloat. And very thankful for the people who supported us during that time and our family.

Jess Bost (16:15):

And even gave him a place to stay because we were separated for a while. And so you know, there’s a lot that I’m just kind of casually brushing over [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right]. But also, very grateful for the people who held us up during that time.

Jess Bost (16:27):

But when we moved to Augusta, when he lost his job, one of the things that came out of that was he unknown to me … I had taken over the financial day to day, paying the bills kind of thing at that point after that last incident.

Jess Bost (16:45):

He had made some decisions to purchase some things on his own that he could no longer pay for. So, during that period of time, he took out a personal loan that I didn’t know about.

Stephanie McCullough (16:57):

Ah, during the time that you’re trying to get back on your feet and get out of the debt and-

Jess Bost (17:01):

Yeah. And so, when he lost his job, he lost the ability to make those payments without talking to me about it because he had no income on his own. And so, we had a rough patch again.

Jess Bost (17:18):

We brought my parents in. My parents helped, but my mom kind of laid it down like, “This is the last time we’re not helping, we’re not stepping in and helping again.” It was humiliating among other things [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] to feel like, can’t we just get our crap together?

Jess Bost (17:33):

And so, when I went into this job opportunity with the financial advisor, one piece of me felt really insecure about my own financial situation.

Jess Bost (17:44):

But the other piece of me thought, and I said this to him because he asked me financial advisor question, “Three years from now, if you look back, what kind of progress would you want to have made in order to mend this?”

Jess Bost (17:56):

He was a good man; this relationship was worth it to you. Or this very financial advisor question, I love it [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Jess Bost (18:01):

I told him, I said, “I want to be able to financially provide for my family. I don’t want to have to depend on my husband to do that any longer. Whether we stay married or not needs to be a whole separate conversation [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right.”

Jess Bost (18:12):

“I don’t want it to be because of money problems [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes] that we decide to stay together or not stay together. Like I need to be able to do this myself [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hmmm], so that I can make clear decisions about whether or not I want to be with him.”

Stephanie McCullough (18:26):

Yeah, yeah. Untainted by the dollars, right?

Jess Bost (18:29):

Yeah. It’s like, okay, alright you know. And he’s like (and same thing you said kind of in our commercial break earlier), “This is a very financially lucrative career or can be [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. You have to apply yourself and work hard.” And so, I took all that to heart and-

Kevin Gaines (18:44):

Let me interrupt here just to clarify for our clients and potential clients listening. Just because we’re talking that this can be a very productive profession, it doesn’t mean you’re being taken advantage of by the pricing. We’re not raking you over the coals. We’re being honest here.

Jess Bost (19:03):

Yeah. Well, and that was the thing for me that I would say probably took me a few years to wrestle through. Like how can I make money, good money in this career while at the same time it being a reasonable trade for the person that I am, that is paying me to do this.

Jess Bost (19:24):

And what I realized over the past eight years is that the reason that the opportunity is here is because you– the ones who do it well, are doing an incredible amount of in-depth planning, have a high consistency of trust and communication and availability to their clients.

Jess Bost (19:51):

Like the work that we do here in this profession when it is done well is on the same level of the kind of thing that you would trust someone to do when you go to them and say, “I have cancer and I need your help, or I have a heart problem and I need your help.”

Jess Bost (20:13):

It is the care and the concern and the ability the, skill and the ability that we have as financial professionals is of the highest caliber for clients and for the people that we work with.

Jess Bost (20:26):

And unfortunately, what also happens in this field is other people short circuit that and try to provide products and or hold themselves out for services without the skill and the ability.

Jess Bost (20:36):

And so, yes, there is the opportunity to be taken advantage of in this profession for folks, but for the ones who are doing it well, it’s absolutely a service that is of highest value.

Jess Bost (20:47):

So, I fortunately got to learn that through the advisor that I was working with, was that they were providing high value service. He was a CFP and also, an accountant by schooling. And he had spent a few years in accounting, so CPA. So, he provided a high level of service to clients.

Jess Bost (21:09):

And so, I was able to learn from him what it looks like when you do it right. And then over the years, unfortunately, I’ve also, seen what it looks like when you do it wrong.

Kevin Gaines (21:18):

We all have, sadly.

Jess Bost (21:21):

Yeah. So, the opportunity for me, combined with the place that I was in life in that moment was so impactful. I mean, I really felt it in my bones that this is what I need to do in order to get where I want to be [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Jess Bost (21:41):

And so, I ran as hard as I could after the chance to do something that aligned with who I was and the thing I wanted to do in this world, which was help people get from where they are to where they wanted to be.

Jess Bost (21:55):

And also, realizing that like there was a path to being able to do that with skill and with ability with that people could trust.

Stephanie McCullough (22:03):

Integrity. Yeah.

Jess Bost (22:04):

And integrity, yeah. So, I just started like working through as much of the credentials and everything that I possibly could to be able to get to that place. So, that was the first five years of my career. I was just really going as hard as I could to get to where I wanted to be [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Stephanie McCullough (22:26):

So, can we go back to that conversation you were saying your parents came in, they helped again, your mom’s like, “Hmm, this is it, this is the last time.” Can you tell us a bit more about the feelings that were involved in that?

Jess Bost (22:40):

Yeah. Again, it was embarrassing. It was frustrating because I felt like, okay, I had taken over the bill paying, but then like still there’s room [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right] for him to go and do other things that can derail our financial progress or financial future.

Jess Bost (23:00):

And so, it was a, it was a moment of realization to me that I don’t have financial freedom if I don’t have it for myself. If I’m depending on someone else to deliver that to me, then I don’t truly have it.

Jess Bost (23:15):

One of the things that was going through my mind was we had things that we had agreed for our kids to be able to do sports.

Jess Bost (23:23):

And we had a daughter that was our youngest. One of the things that she loved the most was travel cheer, competitive cheer. And she loved that because she found friends there. And we were in a new city, a new town [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Jess Bost (23:35):

So, anybody who’s ever done competitive cheer, travel, cheer, you know it’s so expensive. Everything’s expensive about cheer.

Jess Bost (23:43):

And the thought of having to look her in the face and go, “I’m sorry we can’t do this anymore,” was just heart-wrenching because that was her one place where she just thrived [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] in this new town.

Jess Bost (23:56):

So, ahm, for me, it wasn’t even like I can’t go shopping on the weekends, or I can’t go to lunch with my friends. It had nothing to do with that. It was like, “I can’t look my kids in the face and give them the things that not only I want to give them, but the things that we had already agreed to give them.”

Jess Bost (24:11):

Now, I feel like I’m at the precipice of stripping those things away from them too. That was just not acceptable to me. Like I could not live with those kind of forced choices.

Stephanie McCullough (24:24):

Yeah, yeah. So, there’s a term that not everyone may have heard. But it’s what kind of comes up with this. The idea of financial infidelity. Can you tell us a little bit like how you kind of define that and whether you think the situation falls into that?

Jess Bost (24:40):

Yeah. So, that’s pointing back to that first time where we went to the marriage intensive. I wish this had come up then [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hmm]. I wish I had identified then what was going on like under the surface because I think it would’ve been so much more helpful for us moving forward to really get to that place and speak to that problem.

Jess Bost (25:07):

Because financial infidelity is similar to, I mean, it is in the category of infidelity and the root of it is a hiding and a lying about the truth. And that causes the hiding and not really being sure how to get your needs met truthfully and honestly and through communication leads you to still get those needs met, but without truth, and without communication, and without honesty.

Jess Bost (25:44):

And so, that is what was happening in our situation was that in the instance where he felt kind of trapped, he wasn’t really sure how to make ends meet, he didn’t feel like he could be honest, and open, and truthful, and communicative about it.

Jess Bost (25:59):

And so, he tried to meet our financial needs through credit cards. And so, then we worked through that. I took over the bill paying. And so, now he still—, at that point, what I found out later was he felt like I had tightened down too much on his spending. And he didn’t have choices, he didn’t have freedom.

Jess Bost (26:17):

And so, that’s where the personal loan came in because there were still things that he wanted that our budget couldn’t absorb that I said no to and he still wanted to have those things. And so, he you know created a pathway for him to be able to access those things again, through hiding and without communication. Fast-

Stephanie McCullough (26:37):

Not a sustainable pathway, right?

Jess Bost (26:38):

Not a sustainable path, right [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm]. Fast forward down the road, this was three years ago. I, so I had– After that instance with the personal loan, I started tracking our credit like through TransUnion or Trans-

Stephanie McCullough (26:56):

Yeah. Credit reports.

Jess Bost (26:58):

Credit reports and credit score. Because then when I pulled those up, I could see everything that was under my social security number. And so, that kind of limited his ability to do anything with me. As well as I was working on building my career up to have some additional financial security as well.

Jess Bost (27:13):

So, fast forward about three years ago, I ended up discovering something was off with him and I couldn’t place it. And I remember asking over a period of time, this is probably over the period of a year, like, “There’s something you’re not telling me.” I have an email list in him. I was like, “There’s something I don’t know, and I know there’s something I don’t know.”

Jess Bost (27:15):

And it all hit the fan one day with another career change for him. I couldn’t figure out why he was agreeing to certain terms and circumstances of his career, like the career move that he was making.

Jess Bost (27:46):

And so, the person that he was working for, I knew him, so I called him,You know,  “What’s going on here? Like this doesn’t seem like a fair deal for him or our family, and I just can’t piece it together.”

Jess Bost (28:00):

And through the course of that conversation, I found out that there was quite a bit of money that my husband had owed this person. Through that conversation, bringing that back up to my husband, like he had demanded it essentially, “Pay this back to me now [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah], or I’m going to take you to court.”

Jess Bost (28:19):

My husband had gone to his mom to get the money to pay that off without telling me [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. All of this is again, just through line of, I don’t know how to communicate to you about this. I don’t know how to solve for this, so I’m going to try to solve it on my own without you needing to know.

Jess Bost (28:36):

And along the lines, I asked him some questions. “Is there anything else that I don’t know? As I was starting to … he’s like, “No, there’s nothing else I don’t know.” There’s nothing else you don’t know.

Jess Bost (28:45):

I ended up finding out there were bank accounts and credit cards and other things that I didn’t know about  [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Oh] that were totally separate from me. They didn’t have my name on it. And that like there was just this whole other financial life he was living.

Stephanie McCullough (29:00):

Right. That’s what I was just thinking, like a parallel financial life. Like another-

Jess Bost (29:04):

All going back to he just was trying to meet his needs on his own, like without communication, or conversation, or truth, or integrity, or honesty. And I mean, looking back on it is wild to know that like I just knew, but I couldn’t-

Stephanie McCullough (29:24):

You could tell, yeah.

Jess Bost (29:25):

… put my finger on it. And so, this was, well, let’s say five years into my career here in finance. And I asked him to leave. I asked him to leave, and I knew that I could make it.

Stephanie McCullough (29:41):

Yeah. There you go.

Jess Bost (29:43):

And that is a feeling that I will never forget.

Stephanie McCullough (29:51):

Can you put some words to it?

Jess Bost (29:53):

Peace. I could create peace for myself in the middle of a big storm.

Jess Bost (30:00):

Compassion. I could have compassion for him to go and figure his crap ou [Stephanie McCullough overcross: nice]. That took a little while to get to, but there was definitely a slice of that even from the beginning of like, I don’t have to deal with this. I don’t have to fix his problem. He can fix it if he wants to. I felt proud of myself.

Stephanie McCullough (30:22):

Yeah, you should.

Jess Bost (30:24):

I was really proud of the work that I had put into the last five years to get to where I was because, it had– it’s almost like I knew from the jump I needed to do this. Something in me was pulling me forward saying, “You have to, you need to dig into this.”

Jess Bost (30:43):

And it was all showing itself in that moment that I could trust myself and that I could move forward in the direction that I felt like was important.

Jess Bost (30:54):

And also, in many ways, like there was still some, some embarrassment of just, this is our situation, but there was a lot less that because I could move forward with [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] with life. And I didn’t need to go to my parents and ask for help. And regardless of whether or not they would’ve, I’m sure they would’ve again.

Jess Bost (31:20):

But…My parents have always been so generous and, and willing to help us make it in that way. But I didn’t have to. And it just, it felt like I could lay my covering over my kids and continue to provide the life for them that I said I would give them and I wanted to give them without needing to depend on someone else to deliver that for them.

Jess Bost (31:43):

And all of that just, I felt so strong [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. I felt so capable and there’s still so much to figure out financially, but I knew I could do it.

Stephanie McCullough (31:56):

There always is.

Jess Bost (31:56):

I knew I could do it.

Stephanie McCullough (31:57):

Yeah, that’s amazing. And it all came from your hard work and hustling and diving into this new career.

Jess Bost (32:04):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (32:04):

If you had stayed at the support role or the person answering the phones, it probably wouldn’t have looked as-

Jess Bost (32:10):

That’s right. Yeah, it wouldn’t have been as doable again, without some help from outside.

Jess Bost (32:17):

So, we’ll fast forward, we’ll jump forward again. Year later he moved back in kind of as a co-parent. We went through a lot of therapy and did a lot of work, and he did a lot of work. But he moved back in as a co-parent.

Jess Bost (32:32):

Another year, I guess a year and a half later maybe, yeah hmm we’re, I would say, doing better than we’ve ever been[Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yey]. And so, we were talking about this really just the other night and he was asking what changed along the way for me?

Jess Bost (32:53):

And I would say one, that time apart from him realizing that I get to have a standard for what is acceptable and not acceptable.

Jess Bost (33:05):

And I get, he gets the opportunity to decide whether or not he wants to meet that standard, but it’s a choice for both of us. Like this is what I want now moving forward and for him, hm you know am I that, do I want to be that? Is that something?

Jess Bost (33:21):

And so, for both of us, it gave us our choices back. And him having that choice back, I think really empowered him to decide what he wanted to be about.

Jess Bost (33:31):

And for me, it brought down, or I mean, I would say it almost eliminated my anger about feeling stuck and trapped in something that was unhealthy for me. And gave me back my own power to make a choice about what life looked like for me [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Jess Bost (33:54):

And so, our finances are completely separate. We split all the bills now. Like we’re in some ways extremely transparent and communicative. And in other ways, I don’t really care what he spends his money on [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right] as long as he’s contributing half to the house and can do that without hesitation.

Jess Bost (34:15):

And so, we do things differently I think that maybe a lot of couples do with their finances, but it’s a way that allows us to work [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup].

Jess Bost (34:26):

And like I said, the ability to know that we get to choose to be together, that we don’t have to because of these financial requirements that we, the things that we need from each other, but the things. Instead, it’s a opportunity to work together to make this work for our family and our kids and our home [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. It’s just been a really, really incredible change for us.

Jess Bost (34:49):

And again, I said it brought me back to being able to choose to be with him as a person. It really separated out the marriage piece from the financial piece for me. Whereas before it was really intertwined [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] for so many years.

Jess Bost (35:09):

We’re together because we love each other, but we’re also together because we are completely like you know interdependent or almost codependent on each other in order to make this work. And it’s just, it’s a lot more of a partnership now, and really wonderful.

Stephanie McCullough (35:27):

That’s nice, yeah. Was there a journey at all of having to come to a point where you felt like you deserved to be financially stable on your own?

Jess Bost (35:38):

Yeah. I do think that as part of my cultural background, (so my parents raised me Southern Baptist) is very strongly religious based on either, whether it’s the Bible teaches it or the people who read the Bible and interpret it the way that they teach it.

Jess Bost (35:38):

However you get to that conclusion, the way that I interpreted it from those teachings were I need to submit to my husband, he’s the head of the household, he is the financial provider and the ruler, and he’s the one who makes the decisions.

Jess Bost (36:12):

And he also, as part of that capacity, will make good decisions and will be wise and will carry out you know this responsibility that’s his [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Right! And my role in that is to trust him and submit to that. That did not work so well in our situation.

Jess Bost (36:36):

And so, the thing that I’ve come out on the other side realizing is that whether it’s for us or whether it’s just a more of a universal truth you have to, in the beginning figuring out who each person is as a financial partner is a very important conversations place to start.

Jess Bost (37:03):

Like you can’t just assume something about the other person because it’s a biblical truth or because it’s a universal truth. You need to know who you are. How do you manage money, how do you handle money? How do you, how would you handle this situation?

Jess Bost (37:17):

Like those are really important conversations to be had from the jump and to continue to have throughout and to see who needs to be the one managing the money and making the decisions. And like definitely, it’s not specifically one partner over the other.

Jess Bost (37:36):

So, I would say I delegated it almost completely away in the beginning [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And then I took it on along the way, but with bitterness. I shouldn’t be having to do this [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. But I do, because-

Stephanie McCullough (37:51):

It’s not my job.

Jess Bost (37:51):

It’s not my job to do this, but I’m having to, because there’s a fault like in him somewhere, like something’s broken about him, and so therefore I have to take this on.

Jess Bost (38:02):

Whereas like I wish if somebody’s listening, my younger self is listening, could go back and do it again. Like it’s just, there’s no default here. There’s no somebody should do this, somebody else should do that.

Jess Bost (38:15):

The default should be let’s come to the table and figure out who’s the best one to be able to handle these types of situations. And what we both want out of this for ourselves, for our family, for our home, for our girls, our kids.

Jess Bost (38:28):

Those are decisions that can and should be made together and with both people holding equal power and ownership over the outcome.

Stephanie McCullough (38:36):

Yeah. And it’s not talked about as much as you said in marriage preparation or as marriage programs, communications. And it’s perfectly fine to have most things separate too. I know plenty of couples who decided that that’s the way they want to do it.

Stephanie McCullough (38:50):

Or I know couples who all the money goes into one pot, but then they each have their own little side accounts. They can do whatever they want with. And they don’t that have to ask permission or get any accountability, but it’s a set amount.

Stephanie McCullough (39:00):

I mean, there’s all kinds of different systems. There’s no one way, there’s no right or wrong. Unless it’s leading to problems.

Jess Bost (39:07):

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Gaines (39:09):

But this all gets back to the communication and having these conversations, especially in the beginning, trying to guess even if over time it doesn’t work out that it’s going to stay that way, that we’ll switch.

Kevin Gaines (39:23):

But to your point, it’s the communications and the conversations that help establish this instead of just almost like picking teams on the playground and just saying this, “I’ll take this, and that, and that.” And then all of a sudden you figure out, “Oh crap, this isn’t working.”

Jess Bost (39:39):

That’s right. And you figure that out and then you also go … and I think really, I can’t speak for my husband, but I imagine in his mind he thought, “Oh crap, this isn’t working out, but I’m supposed to be doing this. This is my job, this is my role. Maybe something is wrong with me. I don’t need to tell her that. I don’t want to lose her. I’ll try to figure this out.”

Jess Bost (40:02):

And then without knowing how to figure it out, without knowing where to go, who to ask what to do, like it just got worse.

Jess Bost (40:11):

So, if we had both had the mindset of it’s not one or the other, like whoever needs to do this, you you know and everybody has equal say, equal ownership, equal power here [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Let’s just keep communicating about this and figuring it out.

Stephanie McCullough (40:28):

And truly, neither of us have been educated on this stuff. We don’t learn it in school. We’re just kind of thrown off into the world and we have to sink or swim and figure it out. So, I mean, yeah, we got to give ourselves and each other some grace for like this is a complicated financial world we’re in. And no one taught us how to do it.

Jess Bost (40:45):

No one taught us how to do it. So, yeah, tough journey but-

Kevin Gaines (40:49):

So, in your experience, because you had your own income that you could make these decisions that you made.

Kevin Gaines (40:57):

When you’re working with couples where one of the– or anybody in general where one of the spouse doesn’t have that independence for whatever reason they choose or can’t do their own career, what kind of steps or suggestions would you have to help them?

Jess Bost (41:18):

Some of it is about their mindset and beliefs around money. I have seen many more professionals on the scene lately in the realm of financial therapy [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And I appreciate that so much because changing mindsets and beliefs about money is a job best left to therapists [Stephanie McCullough overcross: right] not to financial planning professionals.

Jess Bost (41:49):

And so, whenever I identify folks who have belief, mindset and belief, maybe issues or concerns, that’s the direction that I send them and even engage bringing in that financial therapist for that reason.

Jess Bost (42:06):

And so, for example, if a couple were to come into me and the husband is the full-time provider and his hm the wife is stay at home or full-time mom, whatever that looks like for them in that situation where she’s not earning an income, I’m very curious about his beliefs about money. Very curious.

Jess Bost (42:25):

Because in that same situation, there’s still partnership and shared resources. And so, if he’s being very controlling and restrictive of that money because he’s the one that’s earning it, that’s a belief, that’s a mindset. And that is something that is ultimately probably not going to facilitate her financial health down the road.

Jess Bost (42:51):

And so, that would be like a red flag where I would maybe move that direction before we tried to do a ton of work on the plan, we could still do some general things. But ultimately the long-term plan would need to involve some of those mindset shifts.

Jess Bost (43:05):

And likewise, if it were to flip with her being a full-time worker and him being stay at home dad, similar situation, I’m very curious.

Jess Bost (43:12):

And then also, curious about the partner’s beliefs. Like do I deserve to ask for these vacations with my friends if I’m not the one that’s earning? Or can I make these decisions over what I believe you know is best for Christmas gifts for our families, even though I’m not the one that’s earning the money?

Jess Bost (43:30):

Or do we have a shared idea of how to pay for college that is both of our beliefs are contributing to, even though only one of the partners is contributing financially to that. So, all those things are really, I think they go back to beliefs more than they do financial plans.

Jess Bost (43:44):

Financial plans can be built out of the beliefs, but you’re really not going to get very far with someone when you’re trying to impress your own beliefs upon them and distance is in conflict.

Jess Bost (43:53):

So, I’m really thankful and proud to know some really great financial therapists that I believe you’re doing incredible work in that way. And I think it’s super important.

Stephanie McCullough (44:01):

That’s a great point. I’m glad you brought that up.

Stephanie McCullough (44:04):

So, to wrap up, what tips would you have for, let’s say, a woman who might find herself in a situation of financial infidelity. She’s just gotten home early, she’s gotten the mail first, she’s found that envelope with the red third notice. What would you advise?

Jess Bost (44:21):

I’ll also, want to interject, like I think this flips around a lot where there is financial infidelity on the woman’s part [Stephanie McCullough overcross: sure], especially if the husband is the one who’s the primary earner. And she may just feel like she doesn’t have any control over her finances and she doesn’t know how to like gain control.

Jess Bost (44:41):

And so, there may be a lot of financial decisions that are incongruent with the values that they’ve decided as a family [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And he’s really frustrated, but at the same time you know she may just be like, “Well, I’m just trying to live my life. I’m trying to have a little bit of happiness and enjoy. Why are you being so controlling?”

Jess Bost (44:59):

So, again, like I think this happens in a multitude of ways, but the heart of it is a feeling of lack of control over getting the thing that you want.

Jess Bost (45:11):

And so, therefore, the way that you achieve that is you go outside of communication and trust and honesty, and you do it on your own in secret or say, without permission. Like if you spending choices that they haven’t been run through the value set of the family.

Jess Bost (45:28):

And so, anytime you see a situation like that, I would characterize it as financial infidelity. It may not just be– It may not be the full depth that we experienced, but it still is in that category.

Jess Bost (45:40):

I think it goes back to that belief about money. You and your spouse, if you have different beliefs about money, if you have poor communication about money, I don’t think those can be solved through a financial planner at the outset. I think those really require the help of a therapis [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]t.

Jess Bost (45:57):

And so, a lot of people will go to counseling, but they don’t go to counseling that’s specifically around money issues.

Stephanie McCullough (46:06):

Yes. Most therapists don’t learn that stuff. They think it’s out of their realm, but it’s … yeah, so, it’s a specialty.

Jess Bost (46:12):

Specialty. I would say seek that person out and get to work [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] because there’s a very few list of things that usually cause divorce. Very short list, money’s on it. Money’s on it-

Stephanie McCullough (46:46:28):

Close to the top.

Jess Bost (46:28):

And could have been our story easily had things even just gone one degree different. For us, thankfully, our circumstances led to, like I said, we’re better than we’ve ever been. And so, so, so thankful for that.

Jess Bost (46:45):

But I also, would never encourage someone to stay in a situation where they feel trapped and where they feel out of control and, or they feel like they’re being overly controlled or they don’t feel like they have any financial health or security or ability to make decisions. And so, I take that very seriously.

Jess Bost (47:05):

For me, I carved a path that led me to the outcome of having that independence for myself financially. And then that allowed me to decide whether or not it was worth it to me to work on our marriage.

Jess Bost (47:20):

And he’s a good man, he loves me. And so, those were definitely some reasons why it turned back toward him.

Jess Bost (47:28):

And he worked on himself a lot. And so, I’m thankful that he also, made those decisions to get to the point where we are today. It wasn’t just me. So, I think it takes both partners from being willing to do the work.

Jess Bost (47:40):

But to anyone out there who’s experiencing something like this, my heart goes out to you, for one. It was truthfully the hardest journey of my life. And yet at the same time, there is hope and I can’t tell you what the outcome of that hope is for you and your situation and you you know, as far as whether you’ll stay married or not.

Jess Bost (48:01):

But I can tell you that life does get better when you take hold of those choices, and you do open yourself up to honesty and communication and you give yourself a path forward toward joy and toward that financial security. So, I wish that for everyone who’s listening.

Stephanie McCullough (48:19):

Awesome. So, Jess, if people want to stay in touch, follow you, (I know you put out some great writing in the world) how can people find you?

Jess Bost (48:28):

Oh, thank you. I just recently launched my website. So, jessbost.com is a great place for everyone to go because it links to all my social profiles. And we’ll give you an introduction to the newsletter that you can sign up for. And if you want to get a weekly kind of update on my thoughts and especially as it regards to finances.

Jess Bost (48:51):

And then, yeah, like I said, that’s a great place to go, jessbost.com. J-E-S-S-B-O-S-T( as in Tom).com. Which is why my kids one day said, “Why do you always say that?” That’s because a lot of people don’t like hear the T, they hear a D or whatever. But that’s where you can find me.

Stephanie McCullough (49:12):

Well, thank you so much for being with us today, for being so open about your journey. I really appreciate it. I know people will find it valuable.

Jess Bost (49:19):

Thank you. Thanks for asking and having me on.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (49:26):

Stephanie, I got to say, this was a very interesting story, very educational, enlightening story. And we hit this several times, but I still think the biggest takeaway I have was communication [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Kevin Gaines (49:44):

I mean, you can’t overemphasize how important it is enough. Had he just been open in the very beginning, this could be an entirely different story. Maybe some of these things still would’ve happened, maybe they wouldn’t have.

Stephanie McCullough (50:00):

They were taking on the roles that they were brought up to believe that the husband and wife have these roles and this is the way it goes.

Stephanie McCullough (50:07):

Whereas I think what we’re advocating is, as Jess mentioned, don’t make those assumptions, right. Try to talk about it openly, especially in the beginning when you’re madly in love with each other, right and the other person can do no wrong. Talk about the money stuff. It might feel vulnerable, it probably will feel vulnerable, it’s going to be emotional.

Stephanie McCullough (50:27):

But refer back to our episode with Bari Tessler where she had some tips on having money conversations with your partner on just ways to bring it up that aren’t accusatory, that aren’t overly emotional, that are more like, “Hey, we are two humans sharing this experience of money. Let’s try to do it together.” And I think that’ll set couples off in a much better place.

Stephanie McCullough (50:53):

And because most of our listeners aren’t necessarily just beginning relationships, I don’t think it’s too late ever to start these conversations.

Kevin Gaines (51:01):

Yeah, absolutely. To reinforce something you just said, Stephanie, was doing this when you’re still in love. And it might be unromantic to talk about money roles or normally you hear that pushback on prenups and stuff like that. But you know what’s more unromantic than talking about money roles?

Stephanie McCullough (51:23):

What?

Kevin Gaines (51:23):

Divorce. Just throwing that out there.

Stephanie McCullough (51:26):

Yes, this is true. This is true. I love one of the things that Jess mentioned in the very beginning that stories matter.

Stephanie McCullough (51:35):

And if we can share our money stories openly as Jess so generously did with us today, if we can just be more open with each other, whether romantic partner or not, the more we can talk about money …

Stephanie McCullough (51:49):

Which is the whole reason we try to have this podcast and put out stories about people and their money and how it intersects with our lives. Money is not separate from life. It is a part of life. Life is not separate from money.

Stephanie McCullough (52:02):

So, I find her story, one of empowerment, one of very hard work, one of emotional difficulty and sticking it through and really having to go through hard stuff. And she’s got it out into a great place on the other side. So, I do find it inspiring.

Kevin Gaines (52:20):

I mean, Stephanie, we do a lot of interviews in which we have people come on telling their stories. And there’s a simple reason we want to hear these stories as humans. This is a trait for our species.

Kevin Gaines (52:33):

We relate better and learn better with stories. Rather than just you and me sitting here pontificating about topic du jour talking about something, how it actually happened in real life [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. All of us relate better to that.

Stephanie McCullough (52:50):

Yeah, for sure. Well, we hope you enjoyed this special episode. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (52:56):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (53:01):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (53:15):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.