[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:06):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (00:30):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (00:50):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia. This is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (01:05):

Hello Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (01:07):

Today, we’re talking to Erika Wasserman, yet another financial therapist, and you’ll see why we’re bringing you more of these financial therapists because their conversations they get into with clients are so juicy and helpful.

Stephanie McCullough (01:19):

Erika, I met recently, she spent 10 years working in corporate life at IBM, and then made a change to financial therapy. She talks about how many life events have influenced her and led to this career, being married, having children, getting divorced, living abroad, moving for jobs nine times, and losing a parent. And each one of these experiences that she had led to different ways of dealing with, and feeling about money.

Stephanie McCullough (01:50):

So, she had studied finance at University of Florida, and then as she’ll tell us, combined it with a financial therapy degree at Kansas State University, because she just saw this gap in how people talk about money. So, I think you’ll find this really enlightening.

Stephanie McCullough (02:10):

And there’s even an exercise to go through. So, if you’re driving, you might want to pull over or pause and do that when you get home. But let’s dig into our conversation with Erika Wasserman.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (02:27):

Erika Wasserman, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Erika Wasserman (02:30):

Hello, I’m so happy to be here. What a great podcast to be on.

Stephanie McCullough (02:33):

Aww, thanks. Hey, so here’s what I want to ask you first. People often are surprised when I tell them that there’s actually a field and a specialty called financial therapy. They’re like, “Wait, what? Seriously?” So, do you get this reaction? And how do you respond to it?

Erika Wasserman (02:52):

Oh, my goodness, I would be really, really rich if I got a dollar for every time people like … I get the puppy dog look. Imagine being like at a party or an event, people are like, “Oh, what do you do?” “I’m a financial therapist.” I get the, “Huh, wait, what?”

Erika Wasserman (03:09):

And then I go into explaining that yes, I’m a certified financial therapist. In fact, there’s 70 certified financial therapists through the Financial Therapy Association currently in the U.S. And it is a growing and needed field. It is a combination of people with a financial and or mental health background.

Erika Wasserman (03:28):

So, I have a financial background, and then I went and got a graduate certificate from Kansas State in financial therapy. Yes, that is a legitimate thing. And I went and got certified through the Financial Therapy Association. So, what does that mean?

Erika Wasserman (03:43):

I talk about the emotions of money. So, not just your dollars and cents with the decimal point cents — I talk about all the other senses. That feeling in your chest or the headache or the irritable relationships you have with your family over money. And it’s an area that we’re not talking about.

Erika Wasserman (04:02):

In fact, a recent study said out of 2000 Americans, 81% were taught not to talk about money, but they didn’t know why.

Stephanie McCullough (04:09):

Oh, that’s good.

Erika Wasserman (04:11):

So, here’s an area that’s literally impacting your health, your wealth, your relationships, your productivity at work, but don’t talk about it. So, that’s where I came in and I was like, this is it. I love talking about money. It comes easy to me. Like it comes easy to other people to run: “Don’t ask me to run, I don’t want to run, I’m not good at running. I can walk forever, but don’t make me run.”

Erika Wasserman (04:34):

So, I’m great at having open and honest conversations about our relationship with money, which is where I love helping people, and how I found my passion for financial therapy and started my practice: Your Financial Therapist.

Stephanie McCullough (04:48):

I love it. You are comfortable talking about money and that kind of stuff. How do you get someone, when you’re in a client type of relationship comfortable talking about not just the dollars, but also the emotions?

Erika Wasserman (05:00):

That’s a great question because people are very guarded around money. And oftentimes, especially in our first session, we’re not even going to bring up a dollar amount. I don’t need to know how much you’re making or what’s in your investment account.

Erika Wasserman (05:13):

And when they leave a session with me, they’re like, “Wait, we never talked about X, Y, Z with the numbers. ” I’m like, “Right. We talked about your values, your financial boundaries.” And if you’re listening right now, you might go, “What? What’s a financial boundary?”

Stephanie McCullough (05:27):

Yeah, that’s what I was like, “Wooo.”

Erika Wasserman (05:29):

In our diet, you’re not going to sit down and eat a chocolate cake every day. You might have a piece or a bigger piece some days, or skip and only have dessert once a week. But with our financial boundaries, how often do we give money to friends? How often do we splurge on ourselves? What are our boundaries?

Erika Wasserman (05:48):

And when you start seeing some patterns come up, which is what I talk about, you’ll start seeing some things that are really helping you in life and some that are hurting you. And when you don’t have an outlet or a way to review these things, we stay to our consistent habits just like with our diet.

Erika Wasserman (06:06):

If you stay on bad habits, you end up being obese or diabetic, or other health issues. The same with our finances. If you keep going down paths of bad habits, you’re going to end up in the same place. So, what I try to do is introduce new habits and understand what’s really working for you and what’s not.

Stephanie McCullough (06:25):

And often, it’s this unconscious stuff that’s driving us, our behaviors. Whether it’s beliefs we picked up or messages from our families.

Erika Wasserman (06:33):

That’s exactly it. So, we get our money beliefs three ways. The first one is our background. Like you mentioned, our families, how we grew up. Did you grow up where talking about money was natural? For me, my dad and I, that was something we bonded over. I started trading stocks at 12-years-old. It was very natural in our house. With me, not with my sister, not with my mom. Those were more awkward conversations.

Erika Wasserman (06:57):

Growing up, my mom, we went shopping, the bag stayed in the car until my dad left for work and then we’d bring the bags in. The thing is he paid the credit card bill. So, like as an adult, I’m like, “I don’t who we’re hiding from.” So, these were patterns that we pick up as a kid.

Erika Wasserman (07:13):

Now, you go into religion can play a role. Money is greed, you can’t buy happiness. You give a certain percent to charity. How is that reflecting you in today’s world? And the third is experiences. So, if your experiences — because we’re talking with financial advisors, if your experience is pharmaceuticals, I did poorly in, lost my shirt in that.

Erika Wasserman (07:35):

One stock in 2000, it’s going to be hard convincing somebody to reinvest in that industry. The same is true in experience of buying a car or a house, or anything like that. Sharing your financial information. If you have a positive experience, you’re going to do it again. If it was negative, you’re going to back up.

Erika Wasserman (07:50):

And once we lock in on those three things, we don’t really work on a relationship because we have nobody to work with it on.

Kevin Gaines (07:58):

So, where do you find somebody to work with it on? Are you talking about a professional relationship or are you talking about a more casual or intimate friend or something?

Erika Wasserman (08:09):

That’s a great question because an accountability partner, just like we mentioned diet or the working out — I’ll take a step back. The wellness wheel, think about what makes you healthy and wealthy as an individual: nutrition, exercise, spirituality, environment where you live a roof over your head, occupation — finance is one of those.

Erika Wasserman (08:32):

All the other areas, we generally have accountability partners for: mentors, coaches, people we talk to. You’re having a relationship with your partner or a friend. You call a friend up and you get advice, and you brainstorm and you come up with ideas.

Erika Wasserman (08:46):

Financially, we tend to lack that accountability partner. So, again, something I work on, and I know you two as well, is find an accountability partner. And this could be your romantic partner, but it also could be a friend, it could be a coworker. It could be an uncle or a cousin, somebody within your network that you see doing really well.

Erika Wasserman (09:08):

I’d like to share a story though. First is, I was working with a client, single woman, in her forties living in New York City, great career, did not have a financial accountability partner. And came to me, we’re having this conversation, she’s like, “Well, my brother-in-law, he’s in investments, and I asked him to help me.”

Erika Wasserman (09:28):

And you know what happened? He didn’t show up for her. He wasn’t making her a priority. So, while he had the knowledge, he wasn’t invested in her the way she needed or wanted. So, you might have to find somebody different.

Erika Wasserman (09:41):

So, the first time you try somebody, it might not be the right person. So, when you’re looking for an accountability partner, look for somebody who’s invested in you, and seeing you successful, that’s going to make the time for you. And this doesn’t mean hours on end. It could be a 15-minute check-in once a week, or a quarterly meeting once a month that you just review things.

Erika Wasserman (10:00):

So, I encourage my clients almost like a bullseye, like a dartboard, is pick three to five people that might fit into that dartboard area. And it could start from who you think the bullseye person is, and work your way out. And if that person, that’s the bullseye is not, move them out of the circle and move the next person in. And it could surprise you who shows up for you.

Stephanie McCullough (10:24):

So, could we define like what kind of qualities this type of accountability partner should have ideally. Because is it really investment expertise? Is that the key?

Erika Wasserman (10:34):

No, in fact, that’s not the key. So, the key is somebody who, again, is invested in you. So, somebody’s who’s going to say, “Yeah, I’m going to make time for you. I want you to be successful. Call me and help me with that. And by the way, I could use your advice also.”

Erika Wasserman (10:50):

So, sometimes you can help each other out, which is really rewarding in your relationship. Sometimes, they’re going to call you out on your BS. Let’s be real. Like sometimes we’re like, “Oh, I’m saving for this.” It’s going to be like, “Did you put that money away? Show me a receipt on that.” Call you out on your BS.

Erika Wasserman (11:07):

Somebody who’s going to help you come up with brainstorm ideas and maybe give you some ways of creatively getting to that result that you might not thought of on your own. And who also is going to … let’s say we talked about believe in you, make the time for you, creative results, brainstorming, and also, call you on your BS, hold you accountable. So, that’s going to be important as well.

Erika Wasserman (11:34):

And somebody to admit your mistakes to. And then be like, “Okay, cool. You stumbled, we’ll go back to the running analogy or the cake analogy, we all stumble. And you’re going to stumble with your finances.” So, who’s going to say, “Cool, you tripped over that, let’s pick up and keep moving.” And that’s going to be the important person for you.

Stephanie McCullough (11:57):

Well, and I think so many women especially carry so much shame around money and their money history and what they perceive as mistakes that they don’t feel comfortable saying, “Hey, I messed up on this one. Or I fell off the wagon,” so to speak.

Stephanie McCullough (12:11):

So, to me, the accountability partner, or sometimes I call it the money buddy, has to be someone that you feel like is not going to judge you, right?

Erika Wasserman (12:18):

Yeah. And here’s the interesting thing; you mentioned women, and when I went into this field, I really thought I’d be very women-focused. A lot of men have showed up. And because the assumption is — we make an assumption, you know what that stands for-

Stephanie McCullough (12:32):

We do, right.

Erika Wasserman (12:33):

That the men are just supposed to know. And oftentimes, in the relationship, carries the financial weight of things. Again, background, religion experiences. Might not be the right person, but is too prideful or ashamed to say, “Hey listen, I don’t have all the answers, can we do this together? Can we talk this through?” So, this is for men and women. You’re not supposed to know it all. In fact, you probably weren’t taught any of it.

Stephanie McCullough (12:59):

None of it. Nothing. It’s terrible.

Erika Wasserman (13:01):

So, why would we expect you to know? So, being able to ask for help or resources is really important.

Kevin Gaines (13:10):

So, in your experience, how often is it really the romantic partner that’s the accountability buddy? Because I can imagine people are going to feel guilty. It’s like, “Well, I need to talk to my significant other about this stuff.” But they could very much be a little too close to the situation, or their opinions are too close to the situation to really be a good buddy.

Erika Wasserman (13:35):

Yeah. And so, that’s a great question. There needs to be financial trust in a relationship. There’s a lot of financial infidelity, which is you’re doing things like without your partner knowing.

Stephanie McCullough (13:49):

You mean hiding the bags of the car from dad?

Erika Wasserman (13:52):

Exactly. I mean, that’s a small one, but yes, exactly. Is that you need that financial trust within a partner. But I have clients that come to me that are married to say, “I don’t know how to even talk to my partner about it first. And so, I would suggest having two or three accountability partners for both of you, so that guys might come together and start talking about building a farm.

Erika Wasserman (14:17):

I don’t know, I made a very generalization there — or stocks that they’re interested in or saving for college. So, things that they have interest in where you and your girlfriends might talk and brainstorm about different things. And so, while your romantic partner should definitely be an accountability partner, you might come to the table having talked to a few other accountability partners before then. So, that way you’re maybe more knowledgeable on this topic that you didn’t know before, more comfortable, practice having some of these conversations. You’re able to diffuse the situation by the time you have that conversation with your romantic partner.

Stephanie McCullough (14:53):

I like that because it can be so fraught. And I’ve had plenty of clients where that’s just such an area of tension. And I think you’re right. Like you look behind it. Maybe one member of the couple, maybe it’s the male, maybe not — like feels that responsibility. Like, “Oh, I’m supposed to be on top of this, but no one taught me. My parents didn’t teach me, I didn’t learn in school.” So, I think it feels so fraught. How could it not be emotional?

Erika Wasserman (15:21):

And what happens is when couples present to me — so, I work with business partners and romantic partners, and by the time they show up, there’s so much built up frustration that it’s really diffusing that. And I’ll give an example of a blended family where a first-generation woman was giving money back to her family every month. Her partner didn’t see value in that because he thought it was taking away from their nuclear family, their intimate family. And so, resentment was building towards her family.

Erika Wasserman (15:55):

And after several years, it was like it was actually affecting their romantic relationship, their physical relationship, their spiritual relationship, everything because the resentment was so strong. So, my goal was to move them from resentment to respect. And how do you do that? It’s understanding. Because we don’t spend time talking to people about like, “What was your financial upbringing?” And the question I like to ask people is describe how you grew up with without using class. Give me an example of like, Kevin, how did you grow up? Give me an example without saying, “We were middle class or lower class.”

Kevin Gaines (16:31):

I would say that I grew up comfortable enough that never wanted for anything, but never really got a lot of the extras. Not sure if I gave away class by saying that or not. But that’s kind of how I would describe it.

Erika Wasserman (16:47):

And when we’re working together, it would be more like, so what you just explained to me might be why frivolous things aren’t important to you. So, if we were spending together, for you, your background is, your needs are met, and then you’re happy, that’s my baseline. For your partner, it might be something completely opposite where credit card debt maybe might be normal and everything was a yes. So, now, the two of you are coming from this approach very differently. And you start understanding your partner as you start asking different questions. And in fact, that’s why I created, Let’s Talk About Finances Baby, which is a deck of 50 questions.

Stephanie McCullough (17:27):

Oh, fun. Tell us about that.

Erika Wasserman (17:30):

Yeah. So, what happened is people were showing up saying, “I don’t even know how to start this conversation. I want to understand more about my partner, but I don’t even know what question to ask.” And so, you could get on my website — I’m relaunching on Amazon, so my website’s probably the best place right now. And it’s questions like that; is are you worthy of the money that you make?

Stephanie McCullough (17:53):

Ooh, juicy one.

Erika Wasserman (17:55):

Kevin, what’s your favorite bill to pay?

Kevin Gaines (17:58):

My favorite bill to pay — I got one credit card that it’s not so much that I enjoy it, but the rewards on that particular credit card, I’m able to use for one of my big frivolous things, my annual golf trip. So, it’s not so much that necessarily joy, but each time I pay it off, it’s like I got more credit card points, and I can use these points to pay for this trip without actually having to lay out cash for this trip.

Erika Wasserman (18:25):

Yeah. See, it is kind of insightful. So, for me, as a single mom (I’ve been divorced over a decade now), my favorite bill’s my mortgage. It means I’m able to provide, and we’ve stayed in the same house for a decade right now. I’m able to provide for my children’s stability and a home over their head. My second favorite bill was the babysitter when they were younger.

Stephanie McCullough (18:47):

Oh, heck yes.

Erika Wasserman (18:48):

I had some sanity left, which again, changed my perspective of paying. Money’s energy. And so, when you start spending in places that bring you joy, you start looking at it differently. And that’s really important too, is you want to be able to spend where you enjoy because when you buy your book, you don’t want to feel guilt, you want to feel that joy. And release some of the stuff that you don’t like paying for because we don’t want that money going there.

Stephanie McCullough (19:14):

Yeah, years ago I did a … we called it Living with a Spending Plan Workshop because nobody likes the word “budget.” And one of the women who attended worked as a housekeeper in a hospital. And the homework the first week was write down what you spend kind of in these big categories. And we had done a values exercise, and then we came back the second week to look at it.

Stephanie McCullough (19:37):

And she was really worried to tell me that one of her biggest line items of her annual budget, besides her rent, was sending her grandson to baseball camp. Because she thought I was going to tell her that she shouldn’t do that. But it brought her so much joy. Her daughter couldn’t afford to send her the kid to camp. She loved that she was able to do that. I’m like, “Awesome. That is absolutely perfect.”

Erika Wasserman (19:57):

I love it. And if she had a choice between buying something at a retail store or putting money to baseball camp, she’s going to put it to baseball camp. And that’s why it’s so important to know your financial values. It goes back to what I said earlier, it’s boundaries and values. Because when you start saying yes to things — I build Yes Plans with people versus a budget.

Erika Wasserman (20:21):

I want to give you a lifestyle. And with a lifestyle comes a yes plan. So, when you start saying yes to things, like yes to your retirement, yes to how you want to live your life, the nos come a lot easier. But you have to know what you’re saying yes to.

Stephanie McCullough (20:38):

Yeah. Exactly.

Kevin Gaines (20:40):

So, when you say “bill,” and this may be for our first three or four sessions, you and I have together, who knows — but really curious about myself because I gave the answer I gave. But logically, my favorite bill should be the mortgage because I’m building my wealth. I’m paying off a debt on an asset that I can then use. This is the logical portion of me thinking.

Erika Wasserman (21:02):

That’s logic. 80 to 90% of our decision-making is with emotions. 10 to 20% is with logic. So, now that you’ve thought about it, you’ve heard other people’s answers, now you’re like, “Well, it’s my mortgage.” But that’s not what your passion is. Your passion is your golf outing because that brings you joy and that’s great.

Erika Wasserman (21:22):

And you found a way to do it for free. You girl math it, is that you’re able to do your golf trip. So, that’s great. You should find enjoyment. I don’t like the word “should” because you-

Stephanie McCullough (21:37):

I know, he just “shoulded” on himself, right?

Kevin Gaines (21:40):

Oh, I’m a big shoulder. I’m not going to lie.

Erika Wasserman (21:43):

Shoulda, coulda, woulda-

Kevin Gaines (21:45):

Shoulda and oughta — yeah, I use those words a lot by myself.

Stephanie McCullough (21:49):

With yourself, not with your client.

Kevin Gaines (21:50):

On myself. Not with a client, but on myself. And then interesting, because we’re talking about bills, and I debated about this when you were asking the question. Fortunately, I had time to think, and say it’s not a bill: contributions to retirement accounts.

Kevin Gaines (22:07):

Depending on your mindset, you could view that as a bill that you should or oughta be paying each year. But nobody’s ever going to think of it that way. How do you … in these conversations, how do you differentiate different spending obligations or different obligations on your cash? Let me phrase it that way.

Erika Wasserman (22:34):

So, retirement planning, life insurance. I just was doing a segment on estate planning. So, your wills and anybody over 18 should have one. And with that being said, what does life insurance look like? And I’ll give you an example.

Erika Wasserman (22:50):

Two people leaving an estate planning meeting, or even a financial advisor meeting with the two of you about retirement — one’s leaving ecstatic because they have planning in place and they’re going to start saving at 25, very optimistic maybe. And then you have somebody who walked out of there defeated — “I’m never going to make enough money. This is so farfetched, and just like the air was just released.” Same meeting, two totally different emotions happening there.

Erika Wasserman (23:19):

And so, when you’re looking at retirement, it’s looking at for you personally, what’s your why? Why is retirement important to you? And if it’s not, acknowledge that. Also, acknowledge it to your partner if this is a two-person situation. And I have to say no action is an action.

Erika Wasserman (23:37):

So, if you’re not focused on retirement, just know at certain age, you’re going to get there, and your actions or lack of actions is going to leave you to some decisions. So, that’s okay. You don’t have to make any decisions today, but no action is an action.

Erika Wasserman (23:53):

So, if you want to retire and you want to maybe shift to part-time work or passion projects at 65 or whatever age you want, what are you going to say yes to now to get you there?

Erika Wasserman (24:05):

And so, the yes might be auto transfer into your retirement every month. And then that’s something you’re going to get excited for because you’re building your yes — your, “Yes, I can go part-time, yes, I could do passion projects.”

Stephanie McCullough (24:20):

So, because yes, I’m saying yes to my future, but it’s kind of far off and kind of fuzzy, and sometimes, it’s hard to give it as much value as something that I could do with money today, do you have any suggestions or tricks on kind of bringing those to equal value?

Erika Wasserman (24:40):

Ooh, so for me, I’m a visual learner. Are you guys visual? Like do you like to see things?

Stephanie McCullough (24:47):

I’m visual, yeah.

Erika Wasserman (24:48):

And so, for me, the visual part is so important. Can we take a minute here to do a little exercise?

Stephanie McCullough (24:54):

Yes, please.

Erika Wasserman (24:54):

Okay. So, if you’re listening, if you’re driving, do not close your eyes. That is a good disclaimer. But if you’re out for a walk or you’re just sitting in your office listening to the podcast and you’re able to close your eyes, close your eyes right now. Again, driving, don’t close your eyes.

Erika Wasserman (25:09):

I want you to take a deep breath in and exhale. Do that again. Scan your body right now, see what’s coming up. See where they’re holding tension. Is any of this conversation making you uncomfortable? For me, I get tension in my chest. For others, it shows up in the neck or even in the gut.

Erika Wasserman (25:33):

I want you to put your hands there if you want and take another deep breath in. Have your feet grounded. If you’re out for a walk, just look around, open your eyes, look around your room. Just recenter yourself for a minute. And I want you to just pause and have a minute to explore what does retirement look like for you.

Erika Wasserman (25:55):

And it could be anything. Do you hear birds chirping? Are you in the mountain somewhere? Or is it more the ocean waves when you’re sitting by the ocean somewhere? Is it a classroom full of kids because you’re mentoring? Or is it sitting in a bookshop reading at two o’clock in the afternoon with a warm cup of tea? Is it the second home that you’ve purchased? What color is that house.

Erika Wasserman (26:25):

Pause and smell the air. What does it smell like? What’s cooking on the stove? Is it your grandmother’s favorite dish? Maybe there’s some music in the background. Could be some jazz, could be some reggae. Who’s around you right now? If you’re sitting at that table on the beach, on your hike, who’s next to you? Your friends, your family, your grandkids running around?

Erika Wasserman (26:58):

Take another deep breath in right now, and now I want you to … what would you call this little slice of heaven that you just created? Is it happiness? Is it the nest? Is it ocean cove? I mean, you name this little slice of heaven. And when you’re ready, take another two deep breaths, open your eyes, ground your feet, and come back to us.

Erika Wasserman (27:31):

And now, when we start talking about retirement and your retirement savings, rename that account Ocean Cove, Mystery Bluff, Chirping Birds, whatever it is. Because now, you have a picture, you can almost taste the food that we were just talking about. Hearing the laughter, the birds chirping …

Erika Wasserman (27:52):

Now, you have a purpose, now you have a vision. And so, when you rename that account or take a snapshot of it, you’re able to see it more. And when you can see something, again, for me, I’m a visual person — I’m able to track it better. And now, we’re working towards a common goal.

Erika Wasserman (28:11):

And if you’re doing this with a partner, is afterwards, sit down and talk to them. What came up for them? What came up for you? And where can you meet in the middle?

Stephanie McCullough (28:23):

I love that. Giving it more sensory value instead of this kind of just kind of cloudy, unfocused, somewhere far off. Even if it’s 10 years away or less, that you want to make some kind of change, it can still feel very fuzzy.

Erika Wasserman (28:41):

Yeah. And it’s going to change, but we all have maybe a dream. And like I said, the dollars and cents are important. When they come to you and Kevin, like they need to know what dollars and cents. But until you have all your other senses on board, it’s not repeatable every day.

Erika Wasserman (28:59):

And so, when they leave your office, you want people to have something that they’re marching towards, that they have a goal and a vision. And that’s where the grounding work comes in. The visualization, the other dollars and cents. So, while retirement might be far away, it’s actually … you can taste it now. You could feel it.

Stephanie McCullough (29:19):

You can feel that new couch or that thing you’re tempted to buy at your favorite store that’s on sale on Black Friday. Like that stuff is sensory.

Erika Wasserman (29:29):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But then you can also question yourself, like is this couch going to fit into the beach house? If not, maybe I don’t need it right now. And so, all of a sudden, that $200 or who are we kidding? A couch these days, $2,000 is now moving into your retirement account. Be proactive on some of the things that you’re now saying no to because you have something yes to say to.

Stephanie McCullough (29:55):

Love it.

Kevin Gaines (29:56):

Well, what I also think is interesting is when we have these conversations with clients, there’s a regurgitation of words, of this is what I want to do or whatever. But just picturing, I think you get a different … or you can get a different result.

Kevin Gaines (30:14):

And now all of a sudden, well, maybe what I was saying, really not what I’m picturing. Because we say picture your retirement, but how many of us actually take the time to do what you just did with us of picturing retirement?

Erika Wasserman (30:30):

Yeah. And listen, if you have some time, a good old vision board is good too. Like the magazines are coming in right now, clip them, cut — start cutting, start cutting, put it up. What do you want it to look like? Give it a look and feel and share it with others.

Erika Wasserman (30:45):

That’s the other part of the accountability. Let’s loop it back to the accountability — is share your vision with others. This is my goal because when you talk about it, the same with I’m going to go to the gym, I’ll meet you at the gym for X, Y, Z class. You’re going to start being held accountable for showing up.

Erika Wasserman (31:01):

The same with your retirement plan, is when you start sharing, “Hey guys, this is my vision, I can’t wait to move to X, Y, Z or start playing golf three days a week or buy this set of clubs.” Whatever it is, have that vision and share it with others because then you’re again, going to be held accountable for it.

Stephanie McCullough (31:20):

Yeah. Because we can rationalize anything in our own minds and talk ourselves into something, especially if a salesperson or social media or whomever — that kind of peer pressure, we feel that. It operates subconsciously. All the marketers, they know all these tricks. So, we kind of have to make this other priority just as important to us and as tangible. I love that.

Kevin Gaines (31:45):

So, Erika, from doing a little bit of research, came across this phrase — “money egg.” Well, what the hell is it?

Erika Wasserman (31:55):

It’s a great question. It’s based off of the trauma egg. You know what that is?

Kevin Gaines (31:59):

I do not.

Erika Wasserman (32:00):

Yeah, I didn’t either. So, now I’ve learned about the money egg, and basically, we have all of these financial experiences that happen to us, but we don’t look at it from an overview. So, the egg is an overview from your earliest money memory.

Erika Wasserman (32:15):

So, for example, I had a great cousin, older cousin that would slip us $5 each for ice cream money. And all the kids would run into the back room later and be like, “Did you get your money? Did you go get your money?” And so, like that was like a positive money experience.

Erika Wasserman (32:32):

And then we started building on it. And as we grow older, your first job, how did it feel to earn money? Maybe it’s how your parents, if you’re divorced or married, how they made decisions about you on what to spend, what not to spend. And we might be carrying some anxiety or shame around it.

Erika Wasserman (32:50):

And then we built into, if you went off to university, if you bought a first house, marrying couples. And what we use with this tool is we then look at patterns and roles that you’ve played in your life, and really just set aside an hour to develop your financial relationship from beginning to end, and start seeing some of those patterns.

Erika Wasserman (33:11):

What habits are happening? Some are helping you and some are hindering you. But until we take a view, a bird’s eye view and see the whole thing, then you’re able to move forward and you leave with a mantra.

Erika Wasserman (33:22):

So, I do this in one session. I would like to offer for your listeners one session. If you want to email me, I normally only do packages, but if you’re interested in just learning about your financial history to where you are today, what’s working and not working for you, drop me an email at erika@yourfinancialtherapist.com, and put in there, Take Back Retirement.

Erika Wasserman (33:48):

And what I’ll do, is I’ll give you $50 off the session. So, it’ll come to $350 for the bird’s eye view, the money egg exercise, so that way you can see what habits you have, what roles you’ve played, and leave with a mantra that you want to carry on forward of how you want to be in control of your life.

Erika Wasserman (34:11):

Because our financial beliefs came from three ways: your background, your religion, your experiences. And until we take some action to shift any of those, what you’re doing now, you’re only getting better at. And I’m going to pause and say that again.

Stephanie McCullough (34:27):

Yeah, say that again.

Erika Wasserman (34:28):

What you’re doing now, you’re getting better at. So, if you’re really good at shaming yourself or anxious-

Stephanie McCullough (34:38):

Or avoiding.

Erika Wasserman (34:40):

Avoiding, yeah, a lot of people avoid, or resentment or conflict — you’re only getting better at it until you take an action.

Stephanie McCullough (34:50):

Ooh, and we talk all the time about being intentional with your dollars. That’s the key. But I feel like this exercise can give us a good tool and awareness to be more intentional. Thank you for that. That’s very generous.

Erika Wasserman (35:05):

Yeah, you’re welcome. I look forward to working with your listeners.

Stephanie McCullough (35:09):

Yeah, and maybe me.

Erika Wasserman (35:13):

I’ll give you the discount as well. Don’t worry, Stephanie.

Stephanie McCullough (35:15):

Thank you.

Erika Wasserman (35:16):

Friends and family, I gotcha.

Kevin Gaines (35:19):

Beautiful.

Stephanie McCullough (35:20):

Erika, where can people find you to follow and learn more?

Erika Wasserman (35:24):

Absolutely. I would love you to follow me at yourfinancialtherapist.com is my website. I’m also on LinkedIn. I’m on Instagram and Facebook at Your Financial Therapist.

Stephanie McCullough (35:36):

Awesome. Thanks so much. We’ll have all those links for you in the show notes. Thanks, Erika.

Erika Wasserman (35:41):

Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Kevin Gaines (35:42):

Appreciate your time.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (35:48):

Alright, for those of you who did not listen to our Stephanie’s disclaimer in the beginning and you drove off the side of the road or walked into the middle of a construction site, again, apologies, but you were warned. Anyway, I had a lot of fun with that conversation.

Kevin Gaines (36:04):

What I really liked was when we were talking about trying to find accountability partner and just going through this concept of a bullseye partner that it’s like, listen, just figure out who you want to start talking with. Your first option may not be the best option, but it’s going to be trial and error of people you can talk with.

Kevin Gaines (36:29):

And I think it was also important that yeah, having multiple partners, while your spouse may not appreciate that-

Stephanie McCullough (36:37):

Multiple accountability partners around money, to be clear.

Kevin Gaines (36:40):

To be clear. But yeah, because for me, speaking personally, my instinct is, “Oh, well, it should be my wife.” But we touched on this, there’s a lot of (and I don’t mean this in a bad way) bias or point of view that your partner’s going to have when you’re talking about the family finances or your finances.

Stephanie McCullough (37:00):

Yeah, sometimes having a little distance or perspective.

Kevin Gaines (37:03):

Right, don’t feel guilty about your only accountability partner not being your romantic partner.

Stephanie McCullough (37:10):

I think maybe you’re the only one feeling guilty about this, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (37:14):

Probably, but I am who I am.

Stephanie McCullough (37:17):

But I liked her point about there might be certain people you can discuss some things with, and other people you want to discuss other things with. Like certain people you’re going to discuss like resisting temptation or trying not to go over your spending boundaries. I liked her financial boundaries term.

Stephanie McCullough (37:33):

But other people, would be more into like long-term invest and those types of things. Or even dealing with aging parents or being an executor of an estate or whatever those types of things are. Different people have different experiences, but I did like her qualification that they’re going to call you on your BS.

Stephanie McCullough (37:51):

I think that’s an important thing to, in a loving way, without being judgmental, without shaming you — but they’re like, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. You’re justifying this big expense on a couch. But you told me about your retirement vision and that sounded pretty great. What about putting money towards that?”

Kevin Gaines (38:07):

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s important in a partner, is they’re just not a sounding board just to hear everything you have to say and go, “Yeah, that’s great.” You want somebody who’s going to maybe not push back but engage or not just push back — but engage and actually help you think through what you think you want to do.

Stephanie McCullough (38:31):

Thus, the term “accountability partner.” Because we’re not very good at holding ourselves accountable. And what I found is because we have been socialized not to talk about money, which Erika mentioned also, if you can find a safe person to talk about it with, it helps bring clarity to your own thoughts and struggles when you can talk it out instead of spinning around in your own head, or like she was saying, do some creative brainstorming on how to deal with a particular challenge or struggle.

Kevin Gaines (39:01):

Yeah, this isn’t necessarily easy, but it’s something that you’ll … I almost say it’ll make the whole process so much more robust.

Stephanie McCullough (39:13):

I love that she doesn’t use the term “budget,” but she talks about building a Yes Plan. What are you saying yes to? And dear listeners, I hope you did that exercise and envisioned your “retirement,” whatever that phase of life might be. And I like her idea of giving it a name to that picture, to that slice of heaven.

Stephanie McCullough (39:35):

So, please share with us your names for your own vision of retirement. I love boiling it down to something that’s simple, that whenever you bring up that name, you’re going to remember all those senses and that vision that you came up with. And I also think it’s perfectly fine to redo your vision from time to time.

Kevin Gaines (39:56):

Well, I was going to say, and that was the key thing, she even said: it’s going to change. Especially the younger you are, the more experiences you have, as your life progresses. This is something that’s constantly influx. So, when you name this account, make sure you have the capability of deleting the name and changing it to what it is now.

Stephanie McCullough (40:18):

And of course, sharing your vision with others, again, for that accountability, for that kind of a little bit of using the peer pressure for a good thing. And be careful who you share it with. Only someone who’s going to hold it with greatest care and caring for you.

Stephanie McCullough (40:36):

We’ll be sure to have those links to Erika’s website, the card deck about Let’s Talk About Money, and her generous offer of a discount to work on the money egg exercise, which I’m totally doing for myself in the show notes. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (40:55):

And it’s goodbye from her.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (40:58):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (41:13):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.