Diann Wingert (00:00):

And that’s a tragedy to me that people who are seeking help and getting some kind of help, they’re not getting the right kind of help.

Diann Wingert (00:09):

I have had three episodes of major depressive disorder in my life. I’m talking suicidal thoughts, weight loss, can’t sleep. And since I got officially diagnosed with ADHD and I’ve literally built an entire ADHD management system into my life, I haven’t been depressed once.

Diann Wingert (00:27):

Now, this isn’t going to be true for everybody, but I think it speaks to the fact that sometimes even when you’re getting help, this underlying condition is not being addressed. So, the help only goes so far.

Diann Wingert (00:40):

And sadly, there are generations of women that are included in this, like entire family lines. Which by the way, this is genetic.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:56):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:31):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (01:54):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:20):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:29):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:31):

Our guest today is Diann Wingert. She is a psychotherapist by training and now, a cognitive behavioral coach working with entrepreneurial women, especially those with ADHD.

Stephanie McCullough (02:43):

When I met Diann, we bonded immediately over our shared interest in women, and business, and money and all the things. And she’s officially diagnosed ADHD, as you’ll hear. I am self-diagnosed, highly suspected, believe I’ve got it. So, I think today’s conversation will be really interesting to many of us.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (03:06):

Diann Wingert, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Diann Wingert (03:09):

I’ve so been looking forward to this ever since you and I connected at Pod fest.

Stephanie McCullough (03:13):

Yeah. So, it was my first time going to a podcasting conference and as you might imagine, the people there like to talk.

Stephanie McCullough (03:19):

But then when I met Diann, she and I could just talk for three days straight because there were so many points of connection and kind of commonalities and how we’re approaching the world, what we’re seeing in the world that we had a lot to talk about. So, I’m thrilled about having this conversation.

Diann Wingert (03:35):

Thank you. Me too.

Stephanie McCullough (03:37):

Okay. So, of the 75 different topics we could talk about, what I thought might be interesting and different from what Kevin and I have approached before is this idea of women with ADHD, whether official or they think they feel like they’ve got it, and the challenge that that brings around money.

Diann Wingert (03:58):

I am so here for this topic and can’t wait to unpack it with you because you’re right, there are a lot of women who are figuring out, finding out, sometimes falling backwards into the diagnosis because one or more kid gets diagnosed and then they think, “But wait.”

Diann Wingert (04:12):

Or figuring out on TikTok because there’s a lot of creators who are talking about ADHD, but most of them are not talking about women, ADHD, and money, money, money.

Stephanie McCullough (04:23):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (04:24):

So, let’s do it.

Stephanie McCullough (04:25):

Yeah. So, maybe give us a little background. You said you were diagnosed later in life, is that right?

Diann Wingert (04:29):

Yes. Well, I have to tell a little bit of a cringey story because I think it it puts things in the proper framework. There is no such thing as adult-onset ADHD.

Stephanie McCullough (04:41):

Hmm! Shoot.

Diann Wingert (04:41):

No such thing. So, if somebody says, “Yeah, everything was great, I was fine. I had no problems with hyperactivity, impulsivity, distractibility. But then when I was in my 40s or 50s, then I got ADHD.” No, I’m sorry. You did not.

Diann Wingert (04:59):

If you are an adult who is either self-identified with ADHD traits, or you have been officially diagnosed like I was at the age of 60 by a child psychiatrist, it didn’t just happen. What happened is that if you have it, you’ve always had it.

Stephanie McCullough (05:16):

Hmm

Diann Wingert (05:17):

But the late diagnosis for women is for two reasons. One, we can’t find what we’re not looking for. And historically, even as recently as the 1990s, ADHD was only being diagnosed in little boys.

Diann Wingert (05:32):

As a matter of fact, here’s the cringey part. I did my master’s thesis in 1995 at UCLA, while I was in grad school to become a psychotherapist. I did it on whether ADHD persists into adulthood because at that time, it was little boys and they were believed to outgrow it by late adolescents or early adulthood.

Diann Wingert (05:53):

Well, I started meeting a much bunch of dads of these boys I was working with as part of my practicum said, “Ahm! Excuse me, I know I’m just a lowly graduate student, but I’m pretty sure they don’t outgrow this because I’m meeting all these fathers. And it didn’t go nowhere.”

Diann Wingert (06:12):

So, that’s what I did my thesis on. My conclusion was, this is a lifelong condition, but we were still years away from talking about ADHD in girls and women, which is why so many are self-diagnosed these days because you can’t find what you’re not looking for. And ADHD presents differently in women than it does in men.

Stephanie McCullough (06:34):

Yeah. My son was diagnosed in first grade, my daughter not till 12th grade because it’s very different. Can you say a little bit about that, the differences?

Diann Wingert (06:41):

Yes, absolutely. Well, there’s three different types of ADHD. So, some of the bust another myth here. I’ve already busted the myth of adult-onset. If you are an adult with ADHD, you’ve always had it. You just may not be coping with it as well.

Stephanie McCullough (06:56):

Hm hmm?

Diann Wingert (06:56):

And what we can talk about hormones and that influence and all that, as many women are being identified during perimenopause and menopause. However, three different subtypes.

Diann Wingert (07:06):

Here’s the other myth. There’s no such thing as ADD. Okay? If you have ADHD, you’ve always had it. You can say, I have ADD because God knows I love a shortcut. But there are three subtypes of ADHD.

Diann Wingert (07:18):

So, ADHD is the official label in the diagnostic manual of psychiatry. A lot of people will say, a lot of women will say, “I have ADD,” because they don’t identify with the hyperactivity.

Diann Wingert (07:29):

So, the three subtypes, there’s ADHD hyperactive impulsive subtype. These are the little boys who always get identified in childhood if the parents will go along with it because they disrupt the classroom, because they push and shove at recess because they blurt things out and don’t raise their hand.

Diann Wingert (07:50):

They’re physically hyperactive. They’re impulsive. They may be the brightest kids in the room, but they have trouble learning because they can’t focus, sit still, and keep their hands to themselves.

Diann Wingert (08:00):

Then on the other end of the spectrum, this is the type most girls have, most women have, and which they will refer to as ADD. Or they’ll say, “I have ADHD without the H.” What you have is ADHD inattentive distractible subtype. This tends to be where women are.

Diann Wingert (08:17):

So, you may be, again, the brightest kid in the room, but you’re not disrupting anything. You’re sitting there quietly underachieving, minding your own business. You’re doodling, you’re reading a book in your lap instead of..because the teacher’s boring. You’re fantasizing, you’re writing your memoirs in your head.

Diann Wingert (08:37):

You are having difficulty staying focused and paying attention because you’re distracted by things around you, and you’re distracted by things going on in your very own head.

Stephanie McCullough (08:49):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (08:50):

These individuals are only just now, being officially diagnosed, but along the way they have developed anxiety, depression, eating disorders, addictive disorders, and a chronic case of low self-esteem and lack of ability to trust themselves.

Diann Wingert (09:08):

I cannot tell you how many women I saw in my psychotherapy practice who came to me for therapy with a diagnosis of anxiety and or depression. They may have had an eating disorder, they may have had other things.

Diann Wingert (09:22):

But as I began to assess them and work with them, I said, “Has anyone ever suggested that you might have unidentified, untreated ADHD?” “Say what?”

Diann Wingert (09:32):

And in so many cases, this is the part that makes me so upset. If you’re not seeking help and you’re just trying to muddle through, that’s one thing. But so many women have sought help, sometimes from multiple therapists, psychiatrists, their personal physician.

Diann Wingert (09:52):

And maybe they got a diagnosis, but it was only addressing a part of their symptoms. It wasn’t going into their whole story.

Diann Wingert (09:59):

So, the underlying cause that was feeding the anxiety, and the depression, and the low self-esteem, and the imposter syndrome, and the refusal to take risks because they were so terrified of failing.

Diann Wingert (10:14):

And that’s a tragedy to me, that people who are seeking help and getting some kind of help, they’re not getting the right kind of help. I have had three episodes of major depressive disorder in my life. I’m talking like suicidal thoughts, weight loss, can’t sleep.

Diann Wingert (10:31):

And since I got officially diagnosed with ADHD, and I’ve literally built an entire ADHD management system into my life, I haven’t been depressed once.

Diann Wingert (10:41):

Now, this isn’t going to be true for everybody, but but I think it speaks to the fact that sometimes even when you’re getting help, this underlying condition is not being addressed, so the help only goes so far.

Diann Wingert (10:55):

And sadly, there are generations of women that are included in this, like entire family lines. Which by the way, this is genetic.

Kevin Gaines (11:04):

So, what is the third subclass?

Diann Wingert (11:05):

Yeah! Oh, did I forget to say that?

Stephanie McCullough (11:08):

Yes.

Diann Wingert (11:09):

Oh, this is my favorite group actually, because it’s the group I’m part of. I am the combined type, which means I have features of hyperactivity and impulsivity, and I also, have features of inattentive and distractibility.

Diann Wingert (11:23):

Now, you might think, “Ooh, why are you so excited about that dynamic? That sounds like double trouble.”

Diann Wingert (11:30):

In my experience and observation with all the clients I’ve worked with, I think the women who have the combined type, tend to take more risks because of the impulsivity, tend to be more extroverted and social because for women, the hyperactivity tends to manifest as chatty, which you are certainly experiencing today.

Diann Wingert (11:53):

And because that sort of, the risk-taking means we have more experience with failure, we have more opportunity to develop resilience.

Stephanie McCullough (12:04):

Hmm!

Diann Wingert (12:05):

The purely inattentive distractible subtype, my heart really goes out to these ladies because they tend to become perfectionists, and risk avoidant, and conflict avoidant.

Diann Wingert (12:16):

So, they may have so much potential, but they’re actively avoiding doing things they think they might fail at, which means they don’t get to fulfill their true potential. And I think that’s really sad.

Diann Wingert (12:31):

I think one of the biggest things all women with ADHD need to learn how to do is dance with failure. And the more hyperactive and impulsive you are, the more of a risk taker you are because your brain is literally telling you, “Hey, do that.”

Diann Wingert (12:47):

Or like I think, “Hey, I wonder what it would be like if I … or what could happen? Or how bad could it be?” Like I’ve always said like I would be the person who would be jumping off the 10-meter board before I bothered to check if there was water in the pool.

Diann Wingert (13:02):

But if you don’t kill yourself on the first try, you learn to very important things, I think for all women, but especially women with ADHD, you learn that you can make mistakes and recover from them.

Stephanie McCullough (12:16):

Hm, hm!

Diann Wingert (13:17):

And sometimes you learn skills as a result of making those mistakes so that you become not only more resilient, but more resourceful.

Diann Wingert (13:25):

My daughter sums it up this way. She has the inattentive distractible subtype. “Thanks, mom.” She says, “Mom, I think you’re having way more fun with this ADHD thing than I am.” I think she’s right. Makes sense.

Kevin Gaines (13:38):

But you also, learned to actually check to see if there’s water that second time you go off the board.

Diann Wingert (13:43):

I would, Kevin, I wouldn’t say the second time. I’d say probably like the second 100th time. Because unfortunately, and this is probably one of the most annoying things about those of us with ADHD, we have a seemingly perverse avoidance of learning from our own experience.

Diann Wingert (14:00):

So, we will just do the same thing that did not work. We will do it again and again and again because our ability to remember, and retain things, and like store those things properly is impaired.

Diann Wingert (14:17):

A lot of people talk about the executive functioning challenges for…

Stephanie McCullough (12:20):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (14:21):

..people with ADHD. Executive functions are like identifying, labeling, storing, and retrieving information.

Stephanie McCullough (12:29):

Hmm!

Diann Wingert (14:30):

Identifying priorities, estimating how long something will take, being able to put things in the right order. You think about all those things.

Diann Wingert (14:41):

Like that’s why so many people will start a load of laundry, move on to mop the kitchen floor, then give the dog a bath. Forget all about the laundry, and three days later it’s all moldy, still sitting there. Because these are executive functioning challenges.

Diann Wingert (14:57):

So, we have a massive need to let go of the shame and install systems and structures and supports in our life. Otherwise, you know you just keep screwing up at the same thing. It gets really debilitating and you feel awful about yourself.

Kevin Gaines (15:11):

I know we want to talk about money and ADHD, but one part of your story that I really would like to hear more about is, so you started in grad school studying this, yet you didn’t get diagnosed until 60, and it was a child psychologist who diagnosed you, yeah! Diann Wingert (15:31):

It’s a convoluted story that I’m happy to unpack for you because I love it when people are actually curious about this. I think it’s one of the things that’s difficult about being neurodivergent in any way is that a lot of people think they know, and they don’t.

Kevin Gaines (15:48):

Well, for the record, I don’t know shit. So..

Diann Wingert (15:51):

Oh, my favorite kind of person[ there we go (Kevin Gaines overcross)]. You’re like, “Enlighten me.” Okay.

Diann Wingert (15:55):

Just for the record, Kevin and Stephanie, like I am not the poster child for ADHD because even though I have it, even though I’ve passed it on to all three of my kids ahh, single handedly, I’m white, I’m middle class, I’m highly educated. I have a high IQ, and I have all the privileges that go with that.

Diann Wingert (16:16):

So, I wouldn’t anyone listening to think, “Oh, well, she has ADHD and she’s been able to do all these things and I should be too. So, since I can’t, therefore I’m a POS.” I’ve had a lot of good fortune in my life. I’ve also had a lot of trauma, which we may want to touch on.

Diann Wingert (16:33):

The reason why there was a 20-year gap no, 25-year gap, I actually decided to go to grad school in my 30s because my oldest of three children, who was then eight, was diagnosed with ADHD.

Diann Wingert (16:50):

Very all kind, very very bright, but lot of behavior problems. I mean, he got kicked out of several preschools. We actually had to move more than once as a result, and we couldn’t find him a suitable placement.

Diann Wingert (17:04):

So, he was diagnosed at eight. And I, in true ADHD fashion, when we’re interested in something, we’re obsessed with it. I always say it’s either full ass or no ass. If I care about something, I’m hardcore obsessed. Otherwise, I couldn’t care less.

Diann Wingert (17:37):

So, because I had this kid and I didn’t really know how to meet his needs, I started learning everything I could get my hands on. And I developed such a knowledge base that I thought, “I could actually help other people with this.”

Diann Wingert (17:32):

Now, this is many years before the coaching industry came about. So, the route for me to help other people, to help other families like ours was to go back to graduate school and to get a master’s and go in.

Diann Wingert (17:44):

So, I learned that ADHD could be a lifelong condition. And I even, that was my observation, I also had to disclose in my thesis, under the section researcher bias, that I have an 8-year-old son with ADHD. And I quote, “This researcher identifies with many of the traits.”

Stephanie McCullough (18:06):

Hmm!

Diann Wingert (18:07):

Now, ADHD did not even make it into the adult section of the psychiatric manual until the year 2000. If I had only stuck with it and stayed the course and not been distracted by other options for my career, you could be talking to the grandmother of adult ADHD.

Diann Wingert (18:26):

But what happened instead was I already had three kids when I went to grad school, I got my master’s. Two years later, I got my license. I went on with my career. I worked with many individuals with ADHD over time. But I’m curious about many things, ADHD being one of them, so I didn’t specialize.

Diann Wingert (18:45):

However, as I continued forward in my career, I eventually ended up in private practice. I was working exclusively with adult women at midlife. And client after client, after client came into my practice.

Diann Wingert (19:01):

As I mentioned previously, diagnosis of anxiety, depression, eating disorders, low self-esteem, relationship difficulties. Many of them are like, “I don’t know who I am or what I want.” Right? And that can be a midlife thing, but for people with ADHD, it can be a lifelong thing.

Stephanie McCullough (19:17):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (19:17):

So, at that time, I started specializing more in ADHD. Well, by the time I was 60, I had given up the private practice. I was working online as a coach. I was working from home. And that is when I realized the full extent of my limitations.

Diann Wingert (19:39):

Because I have been creating workaround systems, structures. I say the things we need are safety, structure, supervision, and support.

Diann Wingert (19:46):

And in the workplace, I had those things. I had accountability, I had deadlines. I knew what was expected of me. I also, did really well in school because what was expected of me was clear.

Stephanie McCullough (19:59):

Aha!

Diann Wingert (20:19):

Deadlines were clear. Now, now,  to be honest, like most with ADHD, I would crank out a 20-page term paper the night before because procrastination is an art form for most of us.

Stephanie McCullough (20:11):

Oh! Yes!

Diann Wingert (20:13):

Hm! But I didn’t really understand that I not only probably have these traits, but that I would benefit from a diagnosis and a trial of medication until I was working from home.

Diann Wingert (20:26):

Now, there’s nothing magic about the fact that I was 60. It could have been 50, it could have been 45. It’s the combination of working for myself from home.

Diann Wingert (20:36):

I hate working from home so very much. Without the structure, without the supervision, without the supports, I’m like literally where the buck starts and stops. I hate having a boss, but it’s not so easy to be a boss of yourself when you have this kind of brain.

Stephanie McCullough (24:51):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (20:51):

And the last part of your question is, why did you go to a child psychiatrist? Well, having tons of experience in the mental health field that can tell you something most people do not know. It is very hard to find an adult psychiatrist who will diagnose an adult woman with ADHD.

Diann Wingert (21:11):

Sadly, this is also, true of most of my therapist colleagues. Like I said before, you can’t find what you don’t look for. And there just hasn’t been a lot of good information about how to identify ADHD in adult women.

Diann Wingert (21:23):

I’ve heard many horror stories of women who will finally get up the guts to go to a psychiatrist and be told, “You don’t have ADHD, you can’t have ADHD. You’re 36 years old. You’re 56 years old.” And so, they just sheepishly go away.

Diann Wingert (21:42):

I went to a child psychiatrist because I happen to know that they have the most training, the most experience. And what few people know is before you become a child and adolescent psychiatrist, you have to first become an adult psychiatrist.

Diann Wingert (22:00):

So, they know everything about adults and they know a lot more about ADHD because mostly, it’s diagnosed in children.

Diann Wingert (22:08):

So, this person who diagnosed me happened to be a colleague. I was still in private practice at that time. And I said, “Hey, if you stop referring patients to me, because it would be a conflict of interest, would you do an official ADHD workup and settle this once and for all?” And she said, “I thought you knew.”

Eh, there’s just still a lot of ignorance and misinformation, sadly, especially for women.

Stephanie McCullough (22:33):

Okay. So, in your experience with your patients, clients, yourself, how does this impact people’s interaction with money and this financial world that we have to live in?

Diann Wingert (22:46):

Well, I’m going to start by saying I think most women have money issues.

Stephanie McCullough (22:51):

Oh, well, yes.

Diann Wingert (22:52):

Full stop.

Stephanie McCullough (22:53):

Absolutely. Ah! For no fault of their own.

Diann Wingert (22:57):

No, absolutely. I think it’s the patriarchy. I think it’s capitalism. I think it’s just all of this stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (23:02):

Lack of financial education.

Diann Wingert (23:04):

Yeah. I think, and also, just just the historic gender-based, heteronormative, straight, married model that most of us grew up with. It’s like the man goes out and makes the money and the woman makes the home. Right?

Diann Wingert (23:20):

So, not only did women not have access to information about money, they weren’t expected to.

Stephanie McCullough (23:28):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (23:29):

And I mean, we couldn’t own property, we couldn’t vote. Like, It’s like, “Oh, you don’t need to worry about that stuff.”

Diann Wingert (23:35):

Unfortunately, it’s like there’s nothing bad that’s going to happen from women knowing more about money. However, money is often equated with power and control.

Stephanie McCullough (23:47):

Oh. Yes!

Diann Wingert (23:48):

Now, with respect to ADHD.

Diann Wingert (23:50):

So, I just want to layer the ADHD information on top..

Stephanie McCullough (23:53):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (23:54):

Of the social and cultural conditioning that leaves all women, generally speaking, in a one down position.

Diann Wingert (24:02):

In most heterosexual marriages, women are not doing the taxes, they’re not creating the family budget, they’re not making decisions about major purchases like homes and cars.

Stephanie McCullough (24:13):

Or the investments.

Diann Wingert (24:14):

They may be part of that conversation … or investments, yeah. And a lot of women are intimidated by money because they don’t know.

Diann Wingert (24:21):

And I don’t know if you saw the Barbie movie, but I remember the  the Barbie doll,

Stephanie McCullough (24:26):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (24:27):

The  talking Barbie doll that said, “I hate math,” or, “Math is dumb.” Or something along those lines.

Diann Wingert (24:34):

I’m like, “Bitch, we were programmed to think we were incompetent at math.

Stephanie McCullough (24:40):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (24:40):

And money is all about the math.”

Diann Wingert (24:43):

So, I just want to say that’s sort of the basis. And you don’t have to have ADHD to have any of that going on. With respect to ADHD on top of that, if you think about the impulsivity, there can be a lot of impulse shopping that happens.

Diann Wingert (25:00):

We all have the things that we do when we’re stressed out that make us feel temporarily better, right? Some people it’s alcohol, some people it’s drugs, some people it’s porn. Some people it’s Netflix or YouTube, some people it’s video games. Some people it’s exercise, like they, that’s what they do to feel better. But online shopping and women with ADHD, it’s a thing.

Diann Wingert (25:24):

And unfortunately, if you have a lot of traits of impulsivity and you have a lot of stress in your life, you may find yourself spending more money and living beyond your means. And there’s also, a lot of shame that goes with that.

Diann Wingert (25:38):

And I’ve known women who just buy a fuck ton of stuff that they don’t need, they don’t want, they don’t even use.

Diann Wingert (25:45):

I had one friend who was constantly asking me to either go on a shopping trip with her or a return trip with her because she was constantly taking things back with the tag still on.

Stephanie McCullough (24:54):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (25:55):

She got that dopamine download.

Diann Wingert (25:57):

One of the fundamental things about ADHD is that it’s not that we have a dopamine deficiency, it’s just that our dopamine production and regulation system is not like working as well as it could be. So, we’re always looking for something to give us a little squarer of dopamine. I call it desperately seeking dopamine. [26:15, over cross laugh]

Diann Wingert (26:15):

So, whatever that could be. It could be drugs, it could be alcohol, it could be shopping. It could be playing with the dogs. It could be having a dance party in your living room. It could be scrolling through TikTok.

Diann Wingert (26:26):

But if you’ve developed like a shopping habit as a way of managing stress and a way of treating yourself, a way of rewarding yourself for a hard day at work, a way of soothing yourself from a difficult conversation with your partner or boss or whatever. Like all addictive behaviors, it can be hard to get a handle on and it creates a lot of shame.

Diann Wingert (26:50):

There’s an expression in the therapy community, you’re only as sick as your secrets. Most people don’t talk about this stuff. Most people [26:57, Stephani overcross: Oh!] don’t share this stuff.

Diann Wingert (26:58):

Here’s another example of women with ADHD and money. We tend to get obsessed with things, right? If we’re interested, we’re obsessed. And we’re much better at starting things than stopping them.

Stephanie McCullough (27:12):

Oh, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Diann Wingert (27:13):

Of course not. I see the nodding and the smiling. So, it’s like when you know, you know, right? Especially hobbies. I mean, I’ve had so many different hobbies over the years and the moment I hear about this new thing or experience for the first time, or I see someone else is doing it, I’m like, “Oh, this is it.”

Diann Wingert (27:32):

I call it like the soulmate phenomenon because everything we fall in love with, it’s not really love, it’s infatuation, but it gives you such a massive dopamine download that before you know it, you have literally bought all of the supplies, all of the equipment, all of the things.

Diann Wingert (27:51):

Because in that moment, you are literally under the influence of a massive amount of dopamine in your brain. And dopamine is not just a feel-good chemical, it’s a persistence chemical. It wants us to keep doing whatever we’re doing that’s making us feel good. So, we buy all the stuff because we want to indulge that obsession.

Diann Wingert (28:13):

And we honestly think in the moment, no matter how much evidence we have, that this too shall pass. We, like it’s scuba diving, it’s quilting.

Stephanie McCullough (28:24):

And we think that’s going to be our passion for the rest of our life.

Diann Wingert (28:27):

That’s why I call it the soulmate phenomenon

Stephanie McCullough (28:29):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (28:29):

It’s like-

Stephanie McCullough (28:30):

“This is the thing.”

Diann Wingert (28:30):

“Oh my God, this is the thing.” And for as long as that chemistry lasts, it is the thing. Unfortunately, because this is kind of the nature of addictive behavior, what you find over time with any addiction is that the highs aren’t as high and they don’t last as long.

Diann Wingert (28:51):

And how I used to do this is that it was in hobbies. And I mentioned a couple of them, quilting and scuba diving, even though they don’t seem to have anything to do with each other, they were both on my list.

Diann Wingert (29:01):

I would have so much shame from how much money I had spent on buying all this stuff to do this thing and then literally walking away from it. Like, who are you? Like.. And I didn’t want to have all that stuff sitting around literally shaming me every time I opened the closet door or went out in the garage.

Stephanie McCullough (29:25):

Right. Because then it’s taunting you, the items.

Diann Wingert (29:26):

Exactly. And it’s it’s  an energetic drain because every time I look at it, instead of getting dopamine, I would get pulled down in my neurochemistry.

Diann Wingert (29:35):

So, I would either try to sell it, donate it, give it away. I used to refer to this as removing the bodies. Like I just wanted to like go out to the desert and dump the body. Now, I live in the desert, so I’m like, “Oh, some of my old projects are probably are somewhere.”

Diann Wingert (29:50):

It’s just that you don’t get the same level of excitement seeing something all the way through.

Stephanie McCullough (29:57):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (29:57):

And this can be very, very expensive. Especially when we are avoiding like tallying it up.

Stephanie McCullough (30:04):

Yeah!

Diann Wingert (30:04):

Many marriages have ended over this, by the way.

Stephanie McCullough (30:07):

I believe it.

Diann Wingert (30:08):

Yeah. We also, tend to avoid looking at our checkbooks, opening our bank statements, [Stephanie Crossover: Yes] opening our credit card statements, [Stephanie Crossover: Yes] paying our taxes on time. And-

Stephanie McCullough (30:20):

Plenty of my clients avoid these things too. Why they [Diann Wingert  crossover: Exactly] believe the numbers on the page [Diann Wingert  crossover: Yes] are judging them [Diann Wingert  crossover: Yes]. It’s all the stories we we have absorbed, like the messages about money that you were talking about.

Stephanie McCullough (30:31):

But then I think, is it the executive function on top that makes it even more challenging? Like I’ll start a spreadsheet where I’m going to track things and then two weeks later, I have no recollection that I started that spreadsheet.

Diann Wingert (30:42):

Well, there’s several things going on here, and I think this is really, really common. Like once you get to the point where you realize, “I really know dick about money and it’s hurting me.”

Diann Wingert (30:51):

Like maybe you went through a divorce because you just bought too many things from Hobby Lobby and your spouse is like, “I’m done with you.” Or you may just come to a point where you’re like, “I’m a grown ass woman. Like hm hmm I should understand this stuff. Or I want to understand this stuff.”

Stephanie McCullough (31:06):

Want to. We try to take away the shoulds.

Diann Wingert (31:08):

Yes. Or your kids become young adults and they look to you for guidance and you’re like, “I got nothing for you.” I mean, it’s like …

Diann Wingert (31:16):

And especially if you even, because this podcast is about taking back retirement, like if you think you are ever going to retire or even have the option, it is imperative that we face the thing that is terrifying us [ Stephanie McCullough crossover: Yes] because we think shame is the inevitable result.

Diann Wingert (31:34):

I practice and teach something called radical self-acceptance, [ Stephanie McCullough crossover: Hmm] which is basically in spite of my mistakes, failures, struggles, deficits, whatever you want to call them, I absolutely refuse to spend one more minute of this precious human life hating, blaming, or shaming myself.

Stephanie McCullough (31:57):

Wooh!

Diann Wingert (31:58):

I think I just reached like I’ve had just about enough of this. Now I may-

Stephanie McCullough (32:03):

Sign me up for that.

Diann Wingert (32:04):

Yeah. I may make more mistakes than some people, but I’m not a complete idiot. I have achieved a fair amount of success in my life, and I have learned how to manage my ADHD better than many. So, I’m just not willing to feel like crap about myself anymore. Just not. It’s just no longer an option.

Diann Wingert (32:24):

So, when you can start to peel the shame off of your behavior, [ Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah ] when you can become curious. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hmm, exactly ] I practice mindfulness. I’ve been Buddhist for about 20 years, and you don’t have to change your religion to benefit from this.

Diann Wingert (32:41):

Mindfulness comes down to three things that I think are incredibly helpful for any woman dealing with money issues, and especially women with ADHD who are finally willing to face their money issues. Mindfulness comes down to three things.

Diann Wingert (32:55):

I’m open, I’m open to see what is [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmhm]. I’m curious, I’m curious like how how did this get to be this way? No shame, no blame. You got to park that stuff outside in the alley. I’m just curious.

Diann Wingert (33:09):

Like technically speaking, like Kevin’s question to me, there was no judgment there. He was like, “Wait a minute, if you knew at 40, why didn’t you get diagnosed till 60?” It’s like being curious like that is kind of interesting. Why did it take me 20 years? Why haven’t I …

Diann Wingert (33:24):

And you’re not looking for reasons to feel crappy about yourself. You’re looking for patterns of believing and behaving that help reveal things to you that will help you change things up [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]

Diann Wingert (33:37):

And the third part of mindfulness is lack of judgment. Open, curious, non-judgmental [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. All of that gets wrapped into radical self-acceptance.

Diann Wingert (33:45):

Now, when it comes to money, like if you are not paying your taxes because you don’t want to know how bad things have gotten, I get it. I’ve had clients who’ve had that situation. The only way out of this is through it. And sometimes we need guidance and support and yes, accountability, to face those things.

Diann Wingert (34:06):

I don’t know about you, but every single thing in my life that has ever terrorized me and terrified me, and I avoided like nobody’s business, when I finally either had no place else to run, or I chose to turn around and face it, it has never been as bad as I thought it would be, Yeah!

Diann Wingert (34:24):

It has never been as hard as I thought it would be. And it has never been as shameful as continuing to avoid and run [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm!] on the regular [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm!]

Diann Wingert (34:36):

But you kind of have to get to the point where you’re either sick of yourself or you’re willing to be a little humble and a little vulnerable and partner with someone like you or me to help you.

Diann Wingert (34:48):

Because otherwise we just keep kicking the can down the road. That’s another ADHD trait. Time blindness. It’s like we have two types of time, now and not now.

Diann Wingert (34:57):

Now is what you’re doing this very second, it’s what you’re doing right now. And you’re probably only doing it right now is because you run out of time to procrastinate on it and somebody’s tapping their foot or tapping their watch or blowing up your inbox.

Diann Wingert (35:09):

Not now could be everything from planning for retirement to tonight’s dinner menu [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm!] But a kind of get, and without the executive functions, it all gets sort of lumped in there together. Like refilling your medication, making vacation plans [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Planning tonight’s dinner, planning retirement.

Diann Wingert (35:31):

If that’s all in the same bucket, let’s be honest, you’re just going to reach in there and take the easiest, least stressful thing out. You’re not going to reach all the way down into financial planning. Most of us need help for that.

Kevin Gaines (35:43):

Well, I was going to say even without ADHD, because planning for retirement, saving for retirement is such a nebulous concept, it’s really hard to focus on that.

Kevin Gaines (35:55):

And then if you have, as long you understand it correctly, and then if you have ADHD on top of it, yeah, good luck on that ever happening without somebody to work with you to help you figure this all out.

Diann Wingert (36:10):

It’s actually pretty hard but there is hope. It’s not anyone’s fault that they have a hard time facing this stuff  [Stephanie McCullough overcross: absolutely]. It’s no one’s fault that they have a hard time changing their opinion of themselves as related to their behavior around money [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hmm!]. We have a couple things going against us.

Diann Wingert (36:30):

It’s like how I started answering an earlier question, like saying, “Well, before I start telling you why women with ADHD have trouble with money, let’s talk about why women, [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes] period, have trouble with money.” I’m going to answer this the same way. Our brains are not our friends.

Diann Wingert (36:46):

And I don’t mean the ADHD brain is not your friend. I mean anybody’s brain. And the reason why is our brains are not wired for happiness. They’re wired for survival.

Diann Wingert (36:56):

So, whatever you’re doing, whatever you’ve been doing, impulse shopping, not opening your credit card bills, spending money you don’t have, getting into debt, avoiding saving for the future, like our brains are wired for survival. All brains.

Diann Wingert (37:14):

And if you’re surviving, like you’re alive, you got a pulse right, whatever you’re doing is working according to your brain [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Aha!] If you’re here, you’re surviving and your brain’s like, “Yoh, job done. I give myself an A, I’m going to go take a nap.”

Diann Wingert (37:30):

Your brain doesn’t give two shits whether you’re happy or not. It doesn’t care if you are fulfilled, if you’re evolving, if you are becoming the best version of yourself. Like your brain does not care, does not care, just want you to survive.

Diann Wingert (37:43):

So, that coupled with something called the … I’m going to give you three things. That your wired for survival, not progress.

Diann Wingert (37:53):

Two, there’s something called the negativity bias [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm!], which is true of all brains. Meaning also, for evolutionary purposes, just like what I told you just now, the negativity bias means your brain pays five times more attention to your fuckups than to your wins.

Diann Wingert (38:12):

So, your brain sort of naturally gravitates towards ruminating about what you did wrong. I’ve experienced this countless times.

Diann Wingert (38:21):

I’ve coached many people on this where they would literally give a stellar presentation at work, but they forgot to mention one thing or they left out one slide. And even if they got a standing fricking ovation, they will ruminate and torment themself about that one thing. This is true of all brains.

Diann Wingert (38:44):

And so, when you think about that, it’s like hmm your brain has a negativity bias. Your brain just wants you to survive.

Diann Wingert (38:54):

And the third thing is cognitive bias, which is that whatever we’ve been thinking, we don’t really question. It may be a hundred percent false.

Diann Wingert (39:04):

Most of us have been thinking things about ourselves on default based on things that were said to us, said about us by parents, by siblings, by the schoolyard bully [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm! ]. And because we didn’t have too much in our brains at that time, relative to now … because think about it, you never get to buy an upgrade, right.

Stephanie McCullough (39:26):

Much as I have wished.

Diann Wingert (39:28):

Oh dude, that this one brain has to serve you your whole lifetime. You didn’t have much in there to compete with when you were a little kid. So, those thoughts sunk down deep roots. And we have practiced thinking them forever. Not consciously, not voluntarily. That’s just how the brain works.

Diann Wingert (39:45):

So, because we think these thoughts about ourselves and many women with unidentified ADHD think, “I’m dumb, I’m slow, I’m crazy, I’m broken right.” And other similar thoughts. They will unconsciously seek out other experiences throughout life to confirm that bias, because that’s how the brain works too.

Diann Wingert (40:08):

So, that’s the backdrop of what we’re up against. Now, I don’t wanna you may be thinking, “I’m just going to take up day drinking and pickleball because I might as well give up.” Okay, pump your brakes.

Kevin Gaines (40:18):

Just for the record, day drinking and pickleball doesn’t sound like all that bad of an afternoon. Just for the record.

Diann Wingert (40:25):

It just can’t be the only things you got going on. No, I live in the Palm Springs area in an active 55-plus community. We got a whole lot of day drinking and pickleball going on around here.

Diann Wingert (40:35):

And we have a whole lot of people like myself who are working past the retirement age and have no no plans really to retire. But I’m working differently, as Stephanie mentioned earlier.

Diann Wingert (40:44):

But I think because of this cognitive bias, we not only tend to continue to think the same thing and think other things and find other reasons to keep thinking that, but we tend to surround ourselves with people who are also, thinking those things about themselves. That’s we’re up against.

Diann Wingert (40:59):

Now, radical self-acceptance. I can teach anyone how to learn to do this, but it begins with a decision. Like in spite of the fact that your brain is telling you, you don’t deserve to feel good about yourself all the time. You have screwed up way too many things to feel good about yourself all the time.

Diann Wingert (41:19):

That is a choice that you can make for yourself. It really doesn’t matter if anyone else makes it. It doesn’t matter if they agree with it. You do not need anyone’s permission or approval.

Diann Wingert (41:30):

And if there’s one thing I fricking love about being at this age and stage is that I care a whole hell of a lot more about what I think of Diann Wingert than what anyone else thinks of her. And that has taken decades to get there [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Oh yeah! ]

Diann Wingert (41:43):

So, you can decide, “Okay, I deserve to feel good about myself no matter what.” That doesn’t mean you don’t keep trying to improve. I don’t think those things are mutually exclusive.

Diann Wingert (41:53):

I think we need to take full responsibility for how our behavior affects others. If you are screwing up the family finances and you’re not telling your partner, that’s on you and that you do need to take ownership of that.

Diann Wingert (42:08):

But being able to take ownership of the things that you’ve done and are still doing without feeling like an ass hat, I think it requires making the decision, a radical self-acceptance, learning to practice mindfulness, and beginning …

Diann Wingert (42:44):

The reason why mindfulness is such a life-changing practice (and no, you don’t need to become a Buddhist) is that you begin to question the content of your own thoughts. We do not do that for all the three reasons I just told you.

Diann Wingert (42:39):

And I will often say there’s only two problems that human beings have. One, they’re always thinking, and two, they always believe themselves.

Diann Wingert (42:47):

Mindfulness helps us begin to question our thoughts about the world, about money, and about ourselves so that we can begin to change our behavior and our beliefs at the same time.

Diann Wingert (43:03):

But if you just are on the autopilot all the time, you just keep on thinking what you’ve been thinking and doing what you’ve been doing, nothing’s going to change.

Diann Wingert (43:13):

One of the things I’m going to give you a free resource that I think is fantastic is one of the things I recommend to my clients. You I’m sure have heard of affirmations. They’ve been around since like the ’70s.

Stephanie McCullough (43:23):

Stuart Smalley, baby.

Diann Wingert (43:25):

Yeah. But there is an app called ThinkUp. It’s free, you can access it through Google Play, Apple. Ahh, It’s on all the smartphones. And don’t get the paid version like a true ADHD or you’ll think, “Oh, if the free version’s good, I’m going to get the unlimited.” No, don’t do that. It’s a rabbit hole. Please, let me steer you clear of the rabbit hole.

Diann Wingert (43:44):

You have three affirmations in your own voice.

Stephanie McCullough (43:50):

Oh, cool.

Diann Wingert (43:51):

In your own voice. Which by the way, the reason why I’m recommending this, not just any other type of affirmations, is because that is the same voice that you are shit-talking yourself with right now.

Diann Wingert (44:01):

So, you are beginning to override the self-talk. You’re beginning to train yourself to talk to yourself differently.

Diann Wingert (44:10):

It’s absolutely a game changer. I’ve got many client testimonials who say, “I literally have had these thoughts about myself for 50 years until I started doing this regularly. And now, I’m starting to go, is that really true?”

Diann Wingert (44:25):

When the old crappy thoughts start showing up in their mind, you begin to question those things. And what we can question, we can change.

Diann Wingert (44:32):

And I will tell you the biggest impact of unidentified ADHD on women, because many women are finding out 40s, 50s, and beyond. I think under all of the things they’ve experienced, the fundamental foundational impact that affects everything is the loss of self-trust [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Diann Wingert (44:54):

Because we don’t trust that we can make good decisions. We don’t trust that we can do the hard stuff. We don’t trust that we can finish what we start. We don’t trust that what we could do today will be able to do tomorrow.

Diann Wingert (45:08):

So, the inevitable result is you either try to continue to progress and succeed while having massive imposter complex, self-doubt, fear, anxiety, or you lower your expectations of yourself and everyone else’s.

Diann Wingert (45:26):

Which is really sad because it seems for many people, like that’s the only way to dial down the shame, is to just dial down your expectations and everyone else’s. So, all of your wonderful potential get squandered and you continue to feel badly about yourself.

Kevin Gaines (45:44):

We have met the enemy and he is us [Diann Wingert overcross: Yeah]

Stephanie McCullough (45:47):

So, I feel like we’re running out of time, and yet can you tell us shortly about your ADHD management system?

Diann Wingert (45:54):

What I’m, I’m probably going to be changing the name of this very soon because I’ve just started using the term ADHD-ish [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Aha]. And in fact, I just bought the domain, but I haven’t figured out how I’m going to use it yet.

So, my program, whatever it ends up being called in the future, you can find it at Diann Wingert Coaching. It is broken down into six components. And I’ve actually changed the order of two of them.

Diann Wingert (46:18):

I used to start with self-awareness. I realized self-awareness is a skill, and it’s a skill unfortunately, that many women with ADHD lack as well as men. So, I’ve switched the order. Now, the first step in the process is self-acceptance.

Diann Wingert (46:34):

I think when we start with self-acceptance radical self-acceptance, we set the tone for being able to be mindful and curious so that we can develop more self-awareness. Otherwise, we’re just deflecting any incoming information because we have so much experience with negative information, and shame, and depression, and fear and all that.

Diann Wingert (46:56):

So, I think it starts with self-acceptance. Then we move into self-awareness and all the ways that we can develop self-awareness, which I teach people how to do.

Diann Wingert (47:05):

Then the third phase is self-advocacy.

Stephanie McCullough (47:08):

Hmm!

Diann Wingert (47:09):

And this is, “Now, that I know who I am and how I am, and I refuse to think badly of myself, no matter what, I am actually giving myself permission to grow, to learn, to unlearn, to change, because I know there’s nothing at stake. I can’t fail at this.”

Diann Wingert (47:26):

So, self-advocacy is examining to what degree do I want to share this information with others? The self-advocacy is in what environments in my life is it safe, is it appropriate, will it be skillful for me to disclose? Now, I’m not saying you need to disclose your ADHD, I can’t make that decision, especially without knowing who’s listening.

Diann Wingert (47:50):

Some people it may be necessary because they may their traits and their impairment as a result of those traits may be significant enough that if they don’t disclose, they might be written up in their job, they might lose their job. But if they disclose in HR, they may get some accommodations, which will save the job and will certainly save their self-esteem.

Diann Wingert (48:10):

But even how we talk about it with friends, how we talk about it with our partners. A few years ago, I was starting a new friendship and I thought I’ve often felt like I was going to be a disappointment to friends sooner or later.

Diann Wingert (48:25):

And it held me back from making new friends because I have a bad memory, I can be late, I can sometimes double book myself. I can say, “Oh, I’d love to do that.” And then when it comes around, I’m like, “Oh, I don’t want to do that.” So, these traits can really interfere with your relationship.

Diann Wingert (48:44):

So, what I’ve started doing is now, we’ve moved to this new community. It’s pretty social here. When I meet someone new, and I don’t blurt this out the first time we meet, but when we start to spend a little time together, I will say something like this.

Diann Wingert (48:55):

“So, it seems like our friendship is developing. And I, I just want you to know how much I like you and how much I’m enjoying our time together and you seem to feel the same. But as our relationships deepen our relationship deepens, there may be some things about you that might cause you to feel differently about me.”

Diann Wingert (49:11):

“I’ve experienced this all my life. And I would like to share those things with you because I think if they’re expressed and understood, you won’t have to jump to conclusions. And I won’t have to feel like our friendship is at risk.”

Diann Wingert (49:24):

And I’ve done this a few times and I realized like they’re like, “Wow, I don’t think anybody’s ever done anything like that.” And I say, “Well, this is new for me too.”

Diann Wingert (49:33):

But it’s that knowing that my behavior can be really inconsistent and knowing that I have traits that people misunderstand and may think I’m being rude or I lack respect.

Diann Wingert (49:46):

Or I may or may not use the term ADHD. Because one thing I don’t want, I don’t want anyone thinking, oh, I have ADHD and therefore that’s my excuse for any behavior that I have that you might not like or find inconvenient or annoying. Because that is I completely reject that.

Diann Wingert (50:06):

And I think we can explain without excusing. And part of this self-advocacy is taking apology out of things. Like even simply that, “I appreciate your patience. I meant to get here sooner,” instead of, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry I’m late again. You must hate me.” “I appreciate your patience. I intended to be here sooner.”

Diann Wingert (50:30):

So, we’ve got self-acceptance, self-awareness, self-advocacy, self-discipline. I know that connotation is really bad for a lot of people [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes]. But it involves an analysis of where in my life do I need routines, habits, structure, systems, so that I am not constantly trying to discipline myself.

Stephanie McCullough (50:51):

Hm Hm!

Diann Wingert (50:52):

You could call it self-management. I’m not really happy with the discipline word. I’m kind of playing with it [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]

Diann Wingert (50:56):

And then the final stage is like self-mastery, where I know who I am and I know how I am. And I’ve built a lifestyle for myself that allows me to express my strengths and manage my struggles in a way that my life is not constantly stressful.

Diann Wingert (51:14):

And if you work from home and you have ADHD, or believe you do, there’s a lot of engineering that goes into that phase where you’re literally engineering your environment to support your time blindness, to support your hyperfocus, to support your distractibility. Instead of thinking, “Oh, you should be able to do this.”

Diann Wingert (51:33):

No, you shouldn’t. No, no, you shouldn’t. You’re just internalizing all those messages you got as a little kid, you should be able to do this. And I say, no, no, you absolutely shouldn’t.

Diann Wingert (51:45):

Let’s be kinder to ourselves and figure out how could we take the friction out of getting this done? Or my favorite, how can I make this more fun?

Stephanie McCullough (51:54):

Hmm! Awesome. Oh, so much juicy stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (51:58):

Diann, if people want to follow you and learn more, how can they find you?

Diann Wingert (52:01):

I have a podcast. It’s currently named The Driven Woman Entrepreneur. It’s going to be changed in the near future, but if you go look up in your podcatcher, The Driven Woman Entrepreneur, whatever the new name is, you will find there as well.

Diann Wingert (52:14):

And if you want to go to my website, Diann Wingert Coaching, just make sure you spell Diann with two Ns and no Es. You can find my podcast, my blog, my programs, and a one resource that brings together a bunch of other resources called Appropriately Shiny Objects.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (52:35):

Love it. Thank you so much.

Kevin Gaines (52:37):

Appreciate this. Thank you.

Diann Wingert (52:39):

You’re so welcome. It was a lot of fun.

Kevin Gaines (52:44):

This was a unique episode for me, Stephanie, because truthfully, I didn’t know jack about ADHD.

Kevin Gaines (52:51):

You hear it thrown around all the time and those of us without it, or who don’t think we have it anyway, it’s kind of like, well you know, what is it? And she even addressed this as an excuse or is it a lot more common than I’m aware, you know? There’s all this I just don’t know about it [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]

Kevin Gaines (53:10):

So, frankly, this whole episode I got a lot out of, because this is a topic I don’t know jack about. Sooo.

Stephanie McCullough (53:20):

And you got to work with me so.

Kevin Gaines (53:22):

And I got to work with you. So, now, I can figure out how to handle you a little better at least.

Stephanie McCullough (53:27):

You know, there was so many great points she made. But I think the biggest one that I’m going to take away and try to bring to clients, and friends, and women that we talk to is that there’s often less shame in facing the thing than in continuing to avoid it.

Stephanie McCullough (53:46):

We know financially you’ll be better off if you stop avoiding it. And in terms of not running out of money and all those things. But the shame piece is often what stops women, in my experience, from diving into their numbers and tackling the planning.

Stephanie McCullough (54:02):

But that knowledge that once you get there and get over the hump and actually start doing it, the shame of what you see and taking action is less than the continued shame of avoiding and keeping your head in the sand. I really like that.

Kevin Gaines (54:16):

Yeah. I mean,I mean and that’s just basic human nature, that the unknown is always scarier than the known or 99.99% of the time anyway [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]. So yeah I mean, yeah, so, just having an awareness.

Kevin Gaines (54:29):

And this is a theme that we’ve talked about before, just being aware of what’s out there. Now, we focus it on financial planning or retirement planning, but just being aware of what’s out there demystifies a lot of these unknown things that hang over us, that terrify us to make decisions [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup] or choices so

Stephanie McCullough (54:51):

Yeah. We see it with clients all the time when they do finally get up the guts to come in and sit down and talk things through, there’s relief and clarity. And yeah, not that we’re going to fix everything.

Kevin Gaines (55:01):

No, absolutely not. And the other thing she said that actually is like, “Hey, this is one of our themes as well,” is you know she says you know question your assumptions.

Kevin Gaines (55:11):

Now, she’s talking about doing it internally, but you know we make the same comments all the time when we’re talking about retirement and what retirement can be or however you want to define the last 34 years.

Stephanie McCullough (55:26):

This next phase of life.

Kevin Gaines (55:27):

Next phase of life, the second half, whatever, is question those assumptions. Don’t assume what you think is true is true [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] or it has to be that way for you.

Stephanie McCullough (55:39):

Hm hm! Yeah. We’ve talked about being mindful with your money and she really brought more nuance and understanding to what that means. Loved it.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (55:47):

Alright, everyone, thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (55:52):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (55:55):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (56:10):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.