Nancy May (00:00):

Make sure that you have one person who’s the go-to, should you know the you- know-what hit the fan. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right] They are the one to make the tough decisions that you can’t make, or you’ve given them instructions to make when that time comes.

Nancy May (00:14):

And do it in conjunction with a team, you still need a team of outside support. You still need an attorney, you still need an accountant, you still need financial advisors. You still need that outside legal, financial, and fiduciary care team to help that lead power of attorney, durable power of attorney, make those decisions so that it’s easier not just on their head, like, “What do I do?” Because it’s hard to make decisions quickly [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] when a life is at risk, and you don’t know what to do.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:57):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:32):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:21):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:32):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:33):

Our guest today is Nancy May. Nancy has a fascinating story she’ll share with us. Nancy has been a corporate leader, business advisor, author, speaker, and nationally recognized podcast host.

Stephanie McCullough (02:47):

Her career working with CEOs, boards of directors and global leaders in both the public and private sectors, gave her the strength, resources and foundation to step in and provide her parents with guidance and support as power of attorney, as trustee, as diehard advocate in unraveling their needs and the missteps that happen along the way as they aged.

Stephanie McCullough (03:12):

It really is a fascinating story. She’s super open about sharing her learnings, and I can’t wait to dig in. Nancy May welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Nancy May (03:25):

Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here with you both and your audience too.

Stephanie McCullough (03:30):

Ah you know. After we met back in January and spoke for a bit, I was really excited to have you on the show because you have had experience that a lot of us are either going through or feel like we’re on the precipice of, and not only did you learn a ton, but you are sharing it with the world and helping others. So, I really appreciate that.

Nancy May (03:52):

You’re welcome.

Stephanie McCullough (03:53):

And the topic, of course, is caring for older parents. Nancy, you shared with us some of the statistics you had seen of the impact on caregiving generally on the economy.

Nancy May (04:05):

Ahh you know! Caregiving is really becoming a moving target, I’ll say. The numbers are changing every day, and most of us know hmm a number of years back the number was ahmm 626..  something like hm 65% of — no, there’s 10,000 people that are turning 65 every day [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Oh yes!]

Nancy May (04:26):

But hm now I just recently read that by, I believe it’s 2023, at least in the United States alone, there will be more people over the age of 60 than there will be under the age of 60 [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm] That’s a big deal.

Stephanie McCullough (4:42):

And then you had said to me that 40% of caregivers end up quitting their jobs, and a lot of them don’t even-

Nancy May (04:50):

Actually, that number is fairly old. I’m gonna, I think that that number is higher. It’s probably closer to 53% or sorry sorry ah 43%, if not closer to 50% at times.

Nancy May (05:01):

But the stress and strain on on those who are employed, and working is huge. And in fact, I just did a podcast short on some of those things and just even how to even talk to your employer about it, because most people won’t even share that information with their employer for fear of retribution [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And that happens [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]

Nancy May (05:21):

And not retribution in a bad way, but retribution in the fact that, “Oh! Well, Nancy must be overwhelmed we’re not going to give her that special project that could result in a promotion. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right] Greater visibility.

Kevin Gaines (05:32):

Yes. With the concern about retribution, is that more of a large company thing or a small company thing, or is it pretty much universal?

Nancy May (05:41):

I think it’s across the board, in in fact, in smaller companies, the smaller companies rely on every single employee. And so, any the the wiggle room there is tighter. Larger companies, you’re probably able to get away with a little bit more and hide it for a longer period of time if you want to hide that.

Nancy May (06:00):

But in smaller companies, it the… we’re families, small companies, in more ways than we even want to probably admit because we’re there all the time. And your boss or your employer, an entrepreneur themselves, may be going through the same thing in a big corporation.

Nancy May (06:19):

But it’s hard. I mean, if you don’t think that your lead employee is going to be able to pick up the slack when you’re gone, or you need something as an employer, then you are going to a maybe think of some ways to, I don’t want to say potentially remove that employee from [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm] from your your list of go-to people [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]

Nancy May (06:43)

Or even fire you know. And that’s not legal, but there’s always firing with cause and there’s always a way to find a cause.

Stephanie McCullough (07:53):

Yeah! Yep. And then the effect on the actual caregivers themselves right, besides the emotional and the exhaustion, there’s a financial impact.

Nancy May (07:02):

There is a financial impact. And and going back to sort of the large and small companies, those corporations that have 50 or more employees are required to have what’s called FMLA. It’s the Family Medical Leave Act where you are allowed to leave your job for an extended period of time. It could be a couple of days, it could be a couple of weeks, it could be, I think it’s up to three months in the course of a year without pay.

Nancy May (07:27):

So, some companies, some larger corporations are giving partial pay, but there aren’t a whole lot of them. So, from a small company perspective, if you’re working with a corporation that’s 20 employees, you don’t have that luxury of knowing that your job is safe. And in a larger company, you’re still without a paycheck. So, it’s it’s a heavy burden.

Stephanie McCullough (07:51):

Yup. And then I had seen over 60% actually are ending up supplementing the cost of care with their own [Nancy May overcross: 63%] dollars.

Stephanie McCullough (07:57):

63. There you go. [Nancy May overcross: Yeah]

Nancy May (07:59):

Yeah. And it can go it can go up to a hundred percent of care for an aging parent, the average ah right now is somewhere around 20%. So, depending upon what you’re taking home, even still, you’re taking care of mom financially, you may be taking care of a dependent child.

Nancy May (08:19):

It could be anybody in between who needs help in the family that … or even yourself who’s lost you know an income from another spouse or another partner that is now like, “What do I do? How do I handle this?” It’s a burden. Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (08:35):

Yeah. And I have to say, I became an empty nester a few years ago, and I was thinking, ” Oh! This is the nice carefree time of my life. I’m not caregiving,” but parents are kind of hovering on the edge of you know how much do I need to step in and help there? I think a lot of people you know their kind of dreams of freedom and leisure in those later years end up spending a lot of that time caregiving.

Nancy May (08:58):

Well, there’s also true people who are retiring or retiring early. I’m seeing those numbers. And, and there are also stats out there saying that as people are retiring or leaving their job and thinking it’s time to go on a cruise, go to vacation, I want to travel through Europe, I want to chill and take some time off for myself.

Nancy May (09:14):

But they are being so sandwiched themselves with now having to take care of an aging parent. So, the fear of, “Well, do we take three weeks off to go travel Europe or see friends someplace else? And what happens if we have to come back unexpectedly?” Because you..it’s hard [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].  And even just thinking about it, it’s  it’s hard to relax on vacation worrying if mom’s going to fall or if the caregiver’s going to show up or what else is going to happen.

Stephanie McCullough (09:46):

Yeah. Yup!

Kevin Gaines (09:47):

I mean, I have a friend, his parents live on their own, but they’re definitely older and they rely on him for transportation and a lot of other things. He took a one-week vacation, and for that one week he had to coordinate with his sister, who lives in a different part of the country.

Kevin Gaines (10:08):

She flew in to yeah handle that, to cover that one week. But that gets to another issue that I think exists, which is people looks like, oh there’s three or four siblings they can all pitch in and help out with mom and dad.

Kevin Gaines (10:25):

But in our experience, it’s never evenly divided. Ah! I’ll just say that. Whether it’s because of geography or just lifestyle you know, one is just busy with his or her own kids and everything and really can’t pitch in, or they’re just assholes.

Nancy May (10:45):

Or, Or you’re only a single child. Right?

Kevin Gaines (10:47):

Or you’re a single child.

Nancy May (10:49):

But ahh.. I’ve had a number of conversations with families and siblings and including dealing my own family in that I have one sister, and it’s very difficult to oversee the care or support that an aging parent or a relative might need when you’ve got multiple people in charge. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm]

Nancy May (11:14):

I say, when you know think of a corporation, if you want to go back to that focus, how many companies do really well with co-CEOs? Not too many, right?  As the old adage goes, the buck’s got to stop somewhere. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] And usually, I, I recommend to families or parents, if you’re setting up your POA, your durable financial legal, make sure that you have one person who’s the go-to, should you know the you know what hit the fan [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]

Nancy May (11:46):

They are the one to make the tough decisions that you can’t make or you’ve given them instructions to make when that time comes. And do it in conjunction with a team, you still need a team of outside support. You still need an attorney, you still need an accountant, you still need financial advisors. You still need that outside legal, financial and fiduciary care team to help that lead power of attorney, durable power of attorney, make those decisions so that it’s easier not just on their head, like, “What do I do?”

Nancy May (12:19):

Because it’s hard to make decisions quickly [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] when a life is at risk, and you don’t know what to do. So,ahm that comes from housing, that comes from financial management, that comes from medical decisions. So, having that one person to say, this is the go-to I am the fulcrum. I am the at at the key where I can bring in my siblings to say, “These are the facts. We need to come to some sort of either consensus or you need to weigh in and I’ll make the decision and let you know.” [Stephanie McCullough overcross: I have a friend…]

Nancy May (13:59):

It wont happen quite that way, and as harsh as that you know…

Stephanie McCullough (13:03):

But you’re saying have some clarity in who’s in charge, right?

Nancy May (13:05):

Absolutely. And always understand if you can, what your parents’ wishes are the person that you’re in charge of. I think the worst thing that a parent or an adult can do to a sibling or somebody who’s in charge of their care is to not let them know.

Stephanie McCullough (13:21):

To not be clear. Yeah. [Kevin Gaines overcross: Hmm]

Nancy May (13:24):

Not to be clear. I mean, my dad was ahm somewhat clear. My mom was always clear, I think from the day I was five.

Stephanie McCullough (13:34):

Okay. That’s unusual.

Nancy May (13:36):

No, my my joke is, I say you know, my my mom and dad, actually, it’s probably my mom prepared me for their death since I was five. And my dad traveled a lot. And I had a younger sibling who passed away at three and a half from childhood leukemia. And my mom’s own parents passed away within weeks after I was born.

Nancy May (13:55):

So you know, I’m the oldest. So, a lot happened in the course of the first five years of my life, and they always wanted to make sure that I knew I’d be safe, and my sister would be safe should anything happen. So, I learned how to dial 911 and how to answer the door should you know a a doctor need to come. That’s when doctors made house calls [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]. They’re now going back to making house calls, some of them [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Nancy May (14:21]

But even still you know, I always sort of knew how to at least make that next move if need be, from a very early age. But even still, as those times came on, my dad never necessarily said, what should I do if you can’t make those decisions?

Nancy May (14:38):

Although I did find in his wallet a little card that says, “Does not have DNR,” in big, bold, indelible links. So, okay, dad, I got it. Hang on. And I sort of knew he was a fighter. He wouldn’t give up until we couldn’t.

Nancy May (14:54):

But I had to make that decision of when enough was enough and when we couldn’t fight anymore, and when was it going to be intolerable pain and suffering for him.

Stephanie McCullough (15:05):

Hmm hmm! Which is rough.

Nancy May (15:07):

And mom on the other hand said, “I get to that point, just shoot me.” And I mentioned that to an ER doctor when she got to that point and not being of original American descent, he kind of didn’t get the colloquialism. And he’s like, “We can’t do that. We can’t do this.”

Nancy May (15:20):

No, no. Understand, it’s my mom’s humor.

Kevin Gaines (15:24):

Yeah, Nancy, you made a comment that it’s important to inform the one child. It’s like, listen, this is falling on you and everything, but in attempts at family peace, is it also important to tell your other children they’re not in charge? So, it doesn’t fall on the- [Nancy May overcross: Yeah, absolutely]

Nancy May (15:46):

Have that consensus, at least if you’re uncomfortable having it with other children, then then drop hints or or write a letter saying, “This is what I want upon my demise,” even if it’s not part of your will, have it documented somewhere [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm] so that somebody knows one where it is, and two, I mean, access it at what point in time.

Nancy May (16:13):

So, hm my mom had actually written a rather interesting note, and it scared the living daylights out of me. I didn’t know she had, but I insisted — there were there were a couple of conversations we had that every time I came down to visit them in Florida, “I would say, mom, I need you to put this in writing somewhere so that my sister understands you knoe, you and I have had this conversation, but sometimes we forget. So, please make please make your wishes known.” I know what they are. It it was something slightly personal.

Nancy May (16:45):

And I never knew whether she did it until going through files after my dad had passed, I found this sealed envelope that said, “To be opened by Cindy upon my demise.” I’m like, “Oh God, I’m screwed.”

Stephanie McCullough (17:03):

Cindy being your sister.

Nancy May (17:03]

It ended up being a you know lovely note explaining to my sister, “Please understand that you know ,Nancy is in charge. She will, she will have to make some very difficult decisions that you’ll never, ever have to experience. And we put her in charge for a reason, and we trust her, and we hope that you’ll do the same.”

Stephanie McCullough (17:24):

Oh! That’s nice.

Kevin Gaines (17:25):

That’s good.

Nancy May (17:26):

I mean, that was basically paraphrased [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]. There were a couple of other little things. But my sister cried. She says, “Why did she say that?” Well, I knew [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. But hm [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] you know I just explained, “It’s because my you know mom loved us, and she wants you to make sure that you understand too.”

Stephanie McCullough (17:43):

Yeah. And I hear so many people say, ” Oh! My family will never fight

Nancy May (17:50):

You’ll fight over grandma’s dishes .” [Stephanie McCullough overcross: They’ll all get along. Everyone will agree.”]. You’ll fight over the pen that dad used. You will fight over … maybe not fight, but there will be disagreements that cause hurt.

Stephanie McCullough (18:01):

Yeah.

Nancy May (18:01):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (18:04):

Yeah. I remember growing up, mom and dad always said, “We’re not going to mess with a will, you two just divide everything up.” And I was 16, I’m the oldest, I was 16 when my grandmother died. My mom’s mom died.

Kevin Gaines (18:20):

And they thought they had the same arrangement of, “Ahm! Well, she doesn’t have all that much and just divide everything evenly. And let’s just say things got messy, real fast. And after that, all of a sudden, we had a will. My parents had a will, which you know makes perfect sense. But you know you always assume you’re not going to have these issues. And then you see the issues and you go, “Holy crap.”

Nancy May (18:50):

And evenly may sound fair to a parent, but in the long run even is not always fair to the children, especially the one who’s in charge of everything, who has to do 75% more of the work [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]. Both emotionally, physically, and yes, financially at times too.

Nancy May (19:11):

So, parents also have to be educated on what is you know what’s fair, what may sound fair because it’s been done for generations, does not necessarily equate to who’s being put into a more vulnerable position.

Stephanie McCullough (19:31):

So, we’ve been talking about when when mom and dad pass on you know, but a lot of the issues that come up before they pass on, right? I know, Nancy, you’ve had thoughts on how to kind of insert yourself as the adult child into the caregiving role, maybe when parents haven’t necessarily accepted that that’s yet needed.

Nancy May (19:54):

You know. It’s, it’s interesting. Some parents will be in denial until the very end. And others will slowly admit that they need a little help. And I’ve seen, usually what happens is if there’s two parents still alive, it’s usually one that admits that they need to help.

Nancy May (20:16):

The other one, whether male or female will kind of be in denial and sometimes allow the one that needs the help to get the help[Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmhm]. That actually makes it a little easier for siblings because you can kind of sneak in the support that say, dad or mom might need [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. I just think, don’t worry, we’re just sort of here for the other one.

Nancy May (20:40):

And, and see how you can slowly sort of creep that in as that that other more stubborn parent starts to realize it’s kind of nice to have a little extra support around the house type of thing [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah, yeah]

Nancy May (20:57):

Ahm! But when it becomes dangerous, the ah and nothing’s being done. That’s the scary part. And sometimes you have to get firm, but it’s not all at once, unless there’s a disaster and a disaster, meaning a fall, an accident, a trip to the hospital, long-term rehab, and those become life-threatening.

Nancy May (21:20):

And you have to have sort of that, I say the come-to-Jesus meeting [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yep] with mom or dad and say, look life is not going to get better, we wish it would, but here here are the decisions we need to help you make [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm] so that we can support you in the best possible way.

Stephanie McCullough (21:36):

Well! I like that wording.

Nancy May (21:37):

Right. So, it’s not a ahm an ultimatum. It’s, we are not our parents’ parents. That is a pet peeve of mine. Whatever it is. Please, if you’re listening, understand, you are not parenting your parents. You are there as their adult child to guide and support and to love them and make sure that they get the best quality of life until the end, because you would want the same for yourself [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hmm]. Right?

Kevin Gaines (22:09):

Well, I’m glad you made that point because y’you see a lot of articles that like to use the headline when you have to parent your parents or when the kid becomes the parents or yes some other generic scare line. That, you know, that they’re just trying to convince you that it’s going to be this horrendous experience.

Nancy May (22:30):

It’s insulting. Kids don’t know better. The children learn through a learning curve, right?  You start with knowing nothing and you grow, whether you learn to know and do well, but adults, you already know what to do, whether it’s right or wrong. And, and that learning curve is different.

Nancy May (21:51):

So, inserting yourself as as the parent of a parent is so disrespectful, not just to them, but to yourself as well. So, don’t do it. Find another way to have a conversation. Sometimes you have to be a little stronger and a little firmer and you know either agree to disagree or agree to agree and and move that needle forward in in smaller increments, if need be, versus big chunks.

Nancy May (23:19):

You don’t want to ever have to make a shift immediately, like overnight because that’s disruptive to everybody’s life and you don’t know how to continue on. But ahm like I said, sometimes accidents create those issues [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]

Kevin Gaines (23:32):

Nancy, speaking of learning curves, how did you become so knowledgeable and worldly when it comes to this subject?

Nancy May (23:43):

Oh! Well, like I said, since I was five. So, worldly of five. I’d like..  I wish I could but hm you know my parents, these were these were these were conversations that we had over the course of my lifetime, and they became more frequent as I got older. And as my parents moved down to Florida from Massachusetts, my dad always knew where you know… he always kept files, he always kept files, anyway.

Nancy May (24:16):

He was obsessive with files, sometimes duplicates upon duplicate, upon duplicates. And like, okay, which is the first one, where do we start….

Nancy May (24:26):

But every time I came down, he would make sure I knew the accountant, the attorney, you know the financial advisor, their wishes on going to a care facility, what was happening in the house, who the neighbors were. And he always kept me informed and his red three ring binder of where everything was in a file case.

Nancy May (24:42):

So, that was helpful to know. But as things got a little, I say wonky, ahm it was my time to officially step in as power of attorney. I knew they had a financial advisor that I did not trust.

Nancy May (24:58):

But as I became POA, i. I was able to cut that cord quickly move on, but things got even. Got even worse.

Nancy May (25:06):

So, mom started to have some dementia issues and they moved into a care facility. Their goal was to do that, to not be a burden to my sister and myself. And things got worse there.

Stephanie McCullough (25:16):

So, they moved of their own accord?

Nancy May (25:18):

They moved of their own accord. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Okay] Absolutely [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm]. My mom had some cognitive issues that were going on. We didn’t quite know what they were. We thought something was a little wonky, maybe depression. But you know definitely something was happening. The care facility eventually told me that my mother was not their problem.

Stephanie McCullough (15:37):

Wait, what? She was a resident.

Nancy May (25:40):

Thank you. The key is to understand the term care facility. So, as this all happened, ahm  my background has been working with large corporations and and corporate governance. So, research has always been in the background. If I didn’t understand a business or an industry that I was starting to work in, was asked to work in, I dove in and became an expert ASAP, to get the grasp of what was happening.

Nancy May (25:05):

So, as things started to show cracks, I’ll say in the quality and what the care was going on with my folks, I dove in and basically did a you know. WTF moment. I go’got… This is my new client. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] What do I do? [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]

Nancy May (26:22):

And I put it in those terms to make it easier for for myself to really understand and really for other families to understand. You have to become an expert in understanding the big business of aging care has become a huge enterprise. And smaller companies and larger companies are diving in knowing that they can suck money out of a system.

Stephanie McCullough (26:46):

That’s unpleasant.

Nancy May (26:47):

And the system meaning your wallets [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. So, that’s not to sound overly negative because there are many good organizations that are out there to do well, but they are for-profit institutions. And even a not-for-profit has to make a profit. So, understand that too.

Stephanie McCullough (27:04):

One of the things you shared with me is that you got good at reading the contracts.

Stephanie McCullough (27:09):

Yeah. Talk about that because I think a lot of people assume they’re all the same and sign on the dotted line and mom will be okay.

Nancy May (27:15):

Well, here’s the deal. We assume the assisted, the independent, even the memory wing is a medical facility where they would get medical care and attention. That is not true. The only true medical facility are hospitals, nursing homes that have nursing home licenses and rehab facilities. That is it.

Stephanie McCullough (27:35):

So, care doesn’t equal medical.

Nancy May (27:37):

No. Care doesn’t equal medical.

Kevin Gaines (27:39):

So, everything else is just a residence.

Nancy May (27:42):

Yeah. They’re residents. You are basically renting an apartment with two or three meals a day, sometimes one meal a day. And, ahm somebody there to, I’ll say babysit in case mom falls. However it’s packaged, you have to understand that the true customer of that business is not you. The true customer of that business are the investors.

Nancy May (28:07):

And if you understand that simple little hook, then you have a better understanding or a better way to put your feet on the ground and figure out what you want, what you’re going to do, and how you’re going to provide or support your parents.

Nancy May (28:23):

So, one example is, if your parent is in one of these facilities and they have to call 911, nobody will be there with them. They’re shipped off to the emergency room. Nobody from that facility goes, now what happens, right? Nobody is your eyes and ears with mom and dad in an emergency room. Nobody who knows how to call you.

Stephanie McCullough (28:48):

Oh my gosh.

Nancy May (28:49):

Nobody knows who you are [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. They may lose papers and documents that even say who your parents are. So, those are important things to understand. But the facility contracts are really sneaky little devices. One we don’t, most people don’t know how to read contracts [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yap]

Nancy May (29:07):

The other is that even an attorney doesn’t necessarily know how to ask questions and what should be provided. I say the what ifs, even an eldercare attorney. Some eldercare attorneys are getting classified as eldercare attorneys by only taking a two-hour course and getting a certification.

Stephanie McCullough (29:26):

Oh! Lovely.

Nancy May (29:29):

Yeah. There is no course in college that says you have graduated from this university of law as an elder care attorney.

Stephanie McCullough (29:37):

Hm hm! Interesting.

Kevin Gaines (29:39):

But this gets to a really important point that I, I think we’re making here, which is not only do you have to have the right pieces in place, you have to understand the role of those pieces. Not so much what they do, but what they don’t do.

Stephanie McCullough (29:53):

Where the holes are.

Nancy May (29:54):

And the implication.

Kevin Gaines (29:56):

Oh, we have gaps.

Nancy May (29:57):

Right. So, the cost of my parents care in this one particular facility, which was a lovely facility, went from ahm originally his … my dad was excited because he got the discount started $1,500 a month to save the bed. Save the bed. But they don’t they don’t tell you what you’re not getting. And so, the cost of my folks care went from that 15 to $3,500 a month, which was going to be the average.

Nancy May (30:19):

Then I say the kaching started to happen you know every month. Kaching, kaching, oh it’s not going to be raised, it’s not going to be 6%, 6% once every three years. No, 6% once every quarter. It started … then the cost of their care escalated to $30,000 a month.

Stephanie McCullough (30:37):

30,000 a month in the same place?

Nancy May (30:40):

That was nothing. At the same place. Yes. And and and nothing changed other than ahm mommy need a little bit more support. We got that. Ahm! But the other day I heard of somebody say — who asked me, is that $30,000 for both your parents combined? And they said, “Yes.” And they said, “Oh my God you know, I had a friend who just had $30,000 a piece per parent.”

Stephanie McCullough (31:03):

Yeah.

Nancy May (31:04):

That’s probably the worst I’ve heard so far.

Stephanie McCullough (31:06

Yeah.Uh!  So, Nancy, your decision was to pull your parents out.

Nancy May (31:12):

Ohh! You better.. I got the before and after pictures [Stephanie McCullough overcross: And bring them home]. Mom had eight stitches in her head, had two cracked ribs, and dad was in denial. And she had lost 60 pounds or about 55 pounds in about five months and was not eating. And ah was a little cleaning lady who said, “Miss Nancy, we know you’re not physically here, but we know you care. We have to let you know that if your mom is not feeling well enough or doesn’t want to go down to have a meal at the dining room, that we are not to bring her food.”

Stephanie McCullough (31:42

Ooh.

Nancy May (31:45):

So, she was starving. We didn’t know it. Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (31:48):

Yeah. So, what did you do?

Nancy May (31:51):

So, ahm dad had cognitive capabilities to know what was going on. I flew down, sat down and dad down, asked for a private meeting room that we could have, and had a little pow and said, “Dad, you trusted me with everything. I’m trusting you with the truth.”

Nancy May (32:07):

And I told him what was going on and ahm money that was being spent, and he about passed out at the table. I said, “Can we leave now?”  No, he contract says 30-day notice, by the way, just about every contract says 30-day notice. That’s from them to you as well as you to them [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Okay] . They can ask you to leave.

Stephanie McCullough (32:31):

Within 30 days.

Nancy May (32:33):

Yep. So yeah, what happened next. I looked at about 40 care facilities between Florida and Connecticut, where I was living. Ah, discussed the situation with attorneys and my financial advisor to figure out what we could do. We ended up ahm moving them temporarily we thought a to a an independent facility, which is basically a lovely apartment which I was able to negotiate.

Nancy May (33:01):

It was a two-bedroom apartment with lovely bright light and a little kitchenette and a lovely living space for the price of studio. It was a month-by-month rental. Ahm,and then we had our own independent aides. I hired three aides, brought them in. They worked there, no problem, no issues, no questions, no concerns. And we stayed there for about, I think it was about 12 to 13 months. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Okay]

Nancy May (33:34):

That became a concern, ahm not so much the facility, the facility was physically lovely, but the quality of the food, which is important for my dad, my mom’s weight went right back up. She was eating well. She was happy. It was light. She was engaged, which was great [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And we had aides working with her.

Nancy May (33:54):

But dad was a big guy. He was about 200 pounds. And his weight was dropping rapidly because a slice of pizza does not make a meal for a 200 pound year-old … year-old for 200 pound 90-year-old guy, right? [Stephanie McCullough overcross: No] So, the quality of nutrition was going down for him. So, we decided to make another move [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm]. Down I fly. I used to call myself the wicked witch from the north because I would fly down from the north, put on my little broomstick actually it was Jet, it was JetBlue.

Nancy May (34:26):

I flew down on JetBlue, so plug for JetBlue, and ah, and started looking for new care facilities and thought, “Wow, what am I going to do?” I mean, really, it wasn’t we didn’t need the care facility. We had three … actually, by the time then we had five independent aides that ran around on a schedule. And we did that predominantly because I realized I didn’t want to become dependent on one.

Nancy May (34:52):

Too many people rely on on one or two, and it’s detrimental to your parents’ health. Ahm, It could be detrimental to their safety and to your own hm well-being as well. And so, we ended up getting a rental, a house rental, and realized that the house gave us an entire house for a lot less, including the cost of food and aides than it did at this facility.

Stephanie McCullough (35:21):

Wow.

Nancy May (35:21):

And when that house went on the market, because it was a rental, we had the option to buy it, we did an inspection, and it didn’t pass the inspection. They weren’t willing to negotiate. So, I called my sister, and talked to actually talked to the attorney and accountant well before as we were figuring out buying an asset and ahm figured out what we had and what we could spend.

Nancy May (35:44):

And we looked at about ah 50 houses [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Oh my gosh] in the course of 10 days……..5 guy I had all the.. I had four different real estate agents lined up for meetings before I got down. I said, “Cindy, you’re taking those two. I’m taking these two. And we’re dividing and conquering.” At the end of 10 days, we had fired three real estate agents, hung onto one and found home. We really did.

Nancy May (36:13):

And I actually included our our lead aide at that time to make sure that the house that we thought was going to be home [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah], really was going to be viable for them because they were the ones who were there 24/7 with mom [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] and dad.

Nancy May (36:27 ):

I wasn’t. My sister’s in Oklahoma. I was in Connecticut. And I knew I was in trouble when Millie, my lead aide, walked in the house with this look of, like “Uh,” on her face.

Stephanie McCullough (36:39):

Look of what?

Nancy May (36:40):

She went into the kitchen, and she hugged the lanai….. Ok–

Stephanie McCullough (36:47):

That was great.

Nancy May (39:48):

I guess this is it. And she’s , “Oh, it feels right.” And I said, “Thank you. I thought so too.” So, but you know trust, but confirm as they say.

Nancy May (37:00):

And I brought my sister in to make sure that she felt it was good too. And I showed her all the pictures and she said, “Yep, let’s do it.” So, I was … I was going to buy it anyway [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Nancy May (37:12):

But talking about siblings, bring her in to make sure that she felt she was part of the team, and we gave her all the reasons why and all the problems that we could run into and said, there really weren’t any but any that were major, I just sort of dealt with their accountant, attorney and hm dealt with that.

Stephanie McCullough (37:32):

Okay. And how long did mom and dad live in this house? This is the part that really amazed me.

Nancy May (37:36):

Yeah. So they lived, after that first facility, ahm we increased the quality of their life. Had before and after pictures, you wouldn’t believe it. But ahm they lived another 10 years. They were in, they were in the rental in the individual house for I think it was eight.

Stephanie McCullough (37:53):

Eight years. I mean, that’s amazing. It’s not like you—–

Nancy May (37:55):

They were better on their death bed than they did at that facility. I mean, I, honestly. My dad had an open wound on his head due to hm hm skin grafts and skin cancer had opened up. And so, you could see his skull at the at the care facility. It wasn’t harmful. It was just kind of disgusting to look at [Stephanie McCullough overcross: What?] I mean, it was gray, but hm but ultimately what happened is it closed up on its own.

Stephanie McCullough (38:21):

Because he was healthier.

Nancy May (38:24):

He was healthy, he was in a good place [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (38:28):

Okay. So, I know one of the questions a lot of people are going to have is how did you find those trusted aides? I mean, that is a hard part that I’ve heard from folks who look to bring in help. How did you find people that you trusted and how did you manage them from afar?

Nancy May (38:42):

Well, hmm the first one I found, because she had been actually working with an agency, and we just sort of, I just said, hmm would you do this on the side.

Stephanie McCullough (38:53):

You had gotten her through the agency and liked her and then cut your own deal?

Nancy May (46:22):

Yeah! I, I, I just hired her directly. A lot of agency– The thing that agencies will do is they will scare the aides to death in saying that hm they will sue them. They can’t do that [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Really] First of all, most of them are just kept on part-time so they don’t have to pay benefits.

Stephanie McCullough (39:13):

Yeah.

Nancy May (39:15):

So, guess what? And the other thing is the contracts from those hm from agencies. Read your contracts. I did not like the contract from the agency at the time, and so I refused to sign it. And the hm the agency owner, who was a former New York City police officer, panicked and said, “You have to sign it.”

Nancy May (39:32):

And I said, “Why? My check will clear. I will guarantee, and if I do… if my check doesn’t clear you don’t provide the services.” He said, “No, no, no. You have to sign it.” I said, “Well, I don’t like it.” He said, “Well, just cross out what you don’t like.”

Nancy May (39:42):

Well, I knew that, but I didn’t know that he did know it. So, I crossed out everything initialed, dated, and signed, hmm the only the part where it said I had to pay, and he was fine with it, absolutely fine with it.

Stephanie McCullough (39:58):

He just wanted something signed in his file cabinet.

Nancy May (39:59):

Yeah, hm some of those contracts will say you know if you’re going to hire an independent aide from them, you’ll you’ll owe them a hiring fee of $5,000 or more. I cross that out. You know, there’s a will, there’s a way. And there’s always another agency because these places are in hot competition for one another, and they’re in competition for good quality aides too.

Nancy May (40:23):

So, we started with one [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]. And then I said, “Who else do you know? Let’s interview them.” So, it started with that first aide, and then I just started asking — ahm you know,  if you’re in business for yourself, you are probably a great networker [Kevin Gaines overcross: Right]. What you do is, I say you always focus on hiring for attitude. You can train for skill; attitude equals competency and desire to learn and do well. Attitudes change too, though. And you have to be willing to change up if an attitude changes.

Stephanie McCullough (41:05

Did you experience some of that?

Nancy May (41:06):

Oh! Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (41:09):

How did you …..How were you aware that it was changing? Again, you didn’t live next door.

Nancy May (41:13):

Pretty, pretty easily. So [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah], I had ahmm…  I started with my first lead aide, which is the one, the first one we started with. I eventually fired her because there was something going on hmm that wasn’t great. One of the other, one of the other aides had warned me that … I say warn me, but asked [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Okay] whether we had ah a need to give mom and dad Benadryl. And I said, “Are they sick?” I said, “No.” So, we have three open bottles of Benadryl.

Stephanie McCullough (41:42):

Oh! That’s not good.

Nancy May (41:44):

Open bottles of Benadryl. Sleepy people and sleepy people are easier to take care of. So, when I told that one aide, ” Ahm, I want you to dump every single bottle in there, take a picture of it. I want to see pictures regularly.” I called and find out what was going on and leave the one bottle that’s unopened, that subtly put our lead aide at the time on notice [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]

Nancy May (42:11):

And more reports started to come back you know. When you have a trusting relationship, you let people know that you’re in charge, ahm but you are firm and approachable.

Nancy May (42:25):

Every single check that went down every other week to every single aide that I ever had included a thank you note and some words of praise of something that they know that they had done. It builds a rapport [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And you know, the the lead aid would always say, “Well, Nancy’s in charge,” and try and put the fear of God and be like, “Nancy, the wicked witch from the north.”

Nancy May (42:49):

No, no, no, no. I, Everybody that was hired, I said, “Please, if you have any questions, here’s my phone number. Call me at any point in time, even if you have a personal issue you want to discuss.”

Stephanie McCullough (43:00):

Oh! That’s nice.

Nancy May (43:01):

Everything is figureoutable. We can do it. We can do it. We can handle things. The key is that we are a unit working together for the same reason, for the same purpose. And that’s the the wellbeing of my folks, who I hope that you grow to love and appreciate too.

Nancy May (43:15):

So hm, when things went wonky, we took them off the schedule. You don’t have time for the schedule, hence the reason for five to six aides [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. You have a schedule that’s adjustable [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm]. People go on vacation, people get sick [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]. Things happen [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]

Stephanie McCullough (43:37):

And they got to care for their family.

Nancy May (43:38):

I knew who my second lead aide, my next one would be almost from the day I hired her. We brought her in. When it came time to get rid of that other lead aide, she was nervous about it. And I said, “Don’t worry, we’re a team. We work together as a unit. I’m here to support you. If you ever need me down there for any reason, all you have to do is say, Nancy, I need you tomorrow. I will be there tomorrow.”

Nancy May (44:02):

But we talked regularly. Sometimes, sometimes it was twice a day [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Usually y’you got to do it when things balanced out and there became a better routine, we knew that we could talk usually about three or four times a week. And ah she would always check in in the morning and send me a text, “Good morning, Nancy.”

Nancy May (44:22):

When mom and dad passed, I felt a loss. I didn’t have those good morning texts. Actually, we kept them on, we kept them going for a while [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. So hmm, that routine was important. And having that relationship, I mean, if there was an issue that she had with an aide, we discuss it. I let the person go [Stephanie McCullough overcross: hm hm]

Nancy May (44:42):

When she was bringing somebody on, I said, “Remember, these are the things you look out for.” How do they introduce themselves to your parents? [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Really interesting] How do they have that conversation? Are they enthusiastic to do so?

Nancy May (44:57):

We had one aide that we interviewed who came in, and I wasn’t there for the interview, but but ah I was told how that went. And I said, “So, how’d it go?” Well, the response was “When she walked into the room, looked at your parents, pointed them and said, how do I talk to them?”

Stephanie McCullough (45:15):

Oh dear.

Nancy May (45:15):

Yeah. We knew that wasn’t work.

Kevin Gaines (45:18):

Not a good thing.

Nancy May (45:18):

It’s not mom and dad [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Right]. Where others would come in and say, “What are their names? May I go over and say hello to Ms. Audrey and Mr. Stu, and can I talk to them?” That was always a plus [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes]. And to watch what that interaction was.

Nancy May (45:36):

And then we had a training schedule. So, my lead aide, Millie would train the the new ones. The first day was, all they did was follow and shadow and watch exactly what went on. Don’t do anything. Don’t lift a finger. You’ve got.. This is your schedule. You just come and watch and observe [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup]. If you want to have a conversation and interact with mom and dad, please do. We always watch that one, by all means.

Nancy May (46:03):

Day number two, that was on the schedule you worked together with the lead aide. You chipped in. You asked for help. If they didn’t ask, If they didn’t ask questions on day one, we probably knew we’re into some sort of rocky roads [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. Even if they knew what was going on. Ask a question, do they like this? Do they not like this? Do you have problems with that? Is that an issue? What should I watch out for, right?

Nancy May (46:31):

Day two was actually working hand in hand together with our lead aide and day three, and it’s not always consecutively, but the third the third time on the shift was they were let to do everything on their own. And our lead aide watched and observed. And when they had questions, they could ask questions. So that’s basically… And then on the fourth day, they were on their own, but we also had cameras in the house.

Nancy May (45:55):

So, we always were able to watch and see, is everything going okay? [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yup] And those aides always knew that if they had a question of Millie or myself, they could say, “Could you jump on the camera? I’m concerned about this.” [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah cool]

Nancy May (47:07):

We told them they were not cameras to sort of make sure they were screwing up, but the cameras were aids for all of us to make sure that we were still there as a team. And when the time to call 911 happens, and it happens a lot more often than not. In fact, yeah, even wrote the book on how to call 911.

Stephanie McCullough (47:27):

Oh, my goodness.

Kevin Gaines (47:30):

Geez.

Nancy May (47:30):

Yeah. Seriously. This is, this is moi.

Stephanie McCullough (47:33):

Wow. Alright. We have to link to that.

Nancy May (47:36):

So, yeah, when those times came, you will call 911, or your aides will call 911 or ask you if they can call you know the emergency, take mom and dad off to the emergency room will happen a lot more than you ever, ever anticipate.

Nancy May (47:50):

But when those times came, I would get on the camera. Ahm! I would be on a phone, a separate phone with one of the aides or whoever was there and be there to answer questions or just make sure that everything was going okay [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. And then we stayed in touch. It was just another way to stay in touch [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Kevin Gaines (48:09):

Especially with technology today, it’s probably even easier than it was for when you were doing it.

Nancy May (48:14):

Well, it doesn’t need to be fancy, simple is better. A phone and a camera go a long way to getting a lot done.

Stephanie McCullough (48:28):

Oh my gosh, Nancy, you’re a wealth of information and we so appreciate your coming on. How can our listeners find you? Learn more, find your book, find your other resources?

Nancy May (48:36):

Well, the book, How to Survive 911 Medical Emergencies is available on Amazon. So, you can go to Amazon. You can also go to howtosurvive 911.com. You should be able to get a free File of Life there too. File of Life is very simply a document that ah ahm prompts you to add all the information that’s important.

Nancy May (48:59):

It’s done as a fillable PDF. So, if you make a mistake, you can save it and redo it again at any point in time. It gives you full instructions on how to do that on that front.

Nancy May (49:08):

You can also go to my podcast, which is Eldercare Success. If you just google Eldercare Success on Google, it’s like the first two pages will come up. But, hm it’s also eldercaresuccess.live. On that page, there’s a little tab, blue tab on the right-hand side on the top screen that says, ask Nancy a question. You can click on that; you can send me a voicemail, or you can even send me an email and go from there.

Stephanie McCullough (49:34):

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today.

Kevin Gaines (49:37):

Thank you.

Nancy May (49:38):

You’re welcome.

Stephanie McCullough (49:41):

Well, Kevin I just so appreciate Nancy being completely open about her own story, about what she’s learned along the way. I mean, It’s one of those areas where when you’re going through, you’re usually going through it for the first time.

Stephanie McCullough (49:54):

So, to be able to benefit from someone’s learnings that they learned the hard way along the way. And she had interaction with so many different facets of care, different ways of care being provided, which is why I really was excited to have her on the show.

Kevin Gaines (50:09):

And it definitely came through. I mean, and this is one of the bigger issues when it comes to talking about retirement in general [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]  is yes, we can always say you know, this is what happens with most people. Or this is the most common experiences, or on average you should do this.

Kevin Gaines (50:27):

But bottom line is, at the end of the day, we only get one shot at this [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. So, it’s got to be what works for us. So, even if her story is different from what other people have heard in the past, that was her story. And the important thing is, as you were saying, is she was willing to share with us, hey, this is what some of the things, when they go wrong, what they look like and when things go right, this is what they can look like as well.

Stephanie McCullough (50:51):

Right. I appreciated some of her red flags. And, and also you know, to start with how to have the conversation with parents, with siblings in kind of a gentle way, right. I mean, Nancy comes from many years in corporate, so she can be super firm and direct and at the same time, she understands the value of having that open communication with all parties, both the parents, the siblings, the ones helping you give care because that open communication is crucial.

Kevin Gaines (51:19):

It’s extremely important because, I mean, at the end of the day when mom and dad are gone, the siblings, ideally the siblings are still siblings, but if it’s not handled correctly or if somebody gets you know out of shape or legitimate issues arise you know, it can create fissures within the larger family, and they may or may not ever get prepared.

Stephanie McCullough (51:46):

Yup! Yeah. I really liked her suggestions on training for aides on what to look for when you’re hiring. I think she just wasn’t scared to be in there and you know kind of clear on what she was expecting, her point about the care facilities right. And, and the standard of care expected there.

Stephanie McCullough (52:12):

So, understanding what you’re getting if you are yourself moving into a community or moving a family member versus what you can do when you write the checks to the aides yourself and you can lay out what you expect and how you want it done. And you’re watching because you have the cameras.

Kevin Gaines (52:30):

Yeah. And your very first sentence is understanding the difference of a care facility versus at home versus a medical facility [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] you know, right. Right there. If something goes wrong, they’ll make the call. But they’re there just to make sure they’re provided for. And the medical center, skilled nursing facility, hospitals-

Stephanie McCullough (52:52):

Nursing home, all of people nursing who say, “I don’t want to go to a nursing home.” But they have medical personnel on staff.

Kevin Gaines (52:58):

Exactly. Understand, like you just said, understand what you are getting.

Stephanie McCullough (53:03):

Yes, yeah. And we’re not making blanket proclamations about, which is what we’re just saying per Nancy’s suggestion. Read the contract, really understand what it is you’re getting and what you’re paying for. And reading contracts and you know finding someone like Nancy or someone else who really does this for a living to help you out, if if that’s something that fits with your situation and with your budget. I just was so impressed by how active Nancy was, even though she was very many miles away, the wicked witch from the north.

Kevin Gaines (53:38):

Although from her parents’ perspective as a quick thing, Glenda was the good witch of the north and clearly in this situation, she was the good witch for her parents.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (53:47):

Yeah. For sure. For sure. Alright, well we hope you enjoyed Nancy’s story and all of her wisdom. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (53:57):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (54:01):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (54:15):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.