Stephanie McCullough (00:06):

Welcome to Take Back Retirement, the show for women 50 and better, facing a financial future on their own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, and along with my fellow financial planner, Kevin Gaines, we’re going to tackle the myths and mysteries of “Retirement,” so you can make wise decisions toward a sustainable financial future. Through conversations and interviews, you’ll get the information and motivation you need, to move forward with confidence. And we’ll be sure to have some fun along the way. We’re so glad you’re here. Let’s dive in.

Stephanie McCullough (00:40):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (00:51):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (00:52):

I’m really excited today. We have a fabulous guest, Kathleen Burns Kingsbury. I met Kathleen a few years ago because she happened to sit next to my brother at a bar at a ski resort where they both live in Vermont. She told my brother what she does and he’s like, “Hey, my sister does something like that, maybe you guys should talk.” I of course knew who Kathleen was. Kathleen has long been a sought-after speaker at financial industry conferences, so I had seen her speak and followed her stuff for a long time so I was thrilled to meet her.

Stephanie McCullough (01:22):

Kathleen has authored five books. Her most recent one is Breaking Money Silence: How to Shatter Money Taboos, Talk Openly About Finances and Live a Richer Life, and you just know from the title that Kevin and I absolutely love that. Her podcast is called Breaking Money Silence and we’re thrilled to have her on today, so let’s get started. Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (01:48):

Thank you so much for having me. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Stephanie McCullough (01:51):

It’s fun to have a pro podcaster as a guest on our podcast.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (01:55):

Ooh, pro podcaster, I’ve never been called that before, so that’s exciting.

Stephanie McCullough (02:01):

Why don’t you give us a quick overview of what you do?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (02:04):

Sure. My company is KBK Wealth Connection and I am a wealth psychology expert, author, and coach. I primarily educate women about women and wealth, the psychology of money, the psychology of negotiation, and I also train advisors to communicate more effectively with their clients.

Stephanie McCullough (02:23):

I love that. When you and I were talking ahead of time we thought a really good, fun, juicy topic would be women, money, and power. And my first question for you is, why you feel that that’s a topic that makes some people uncomfortable.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (02:41):

It’s a great question, I love this topic. I feel empowered even when I say the words, women, money and power, and I think it makes people uncomfortable because we are so used to in our society, at least historically, of not having women be in that power position. If you look in politics, if you look in the financial services industry, if you look in the C-suite, things are changing in the next generations moving up but still there’s a lot of work to go. There are very mixed messages for women about owning their power, about stepping into their power, and I do think for some people, women and men, I’m not going to say it’s just men, find it somehow threatening because it’s different and it’s new. But when you really understand what women, money, and power is about it’s really important for all of us and it’s something that I think we should be talking more about.

Stephanie McCullough (03:35):

So, what does it mean to you?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (03:36):

Power. I think that when I’m talking about empower, I’m really talking about empowerment, I’m talking about feeling good about yourself, feeling self-confident, and because certainly I do wealth psychology it goes further to being able to financially take care of yourself, to know when to ask for help, to know when to speak up and use your voice against financial discrimination and certainly in the negotiation area to ask and get paid what you’re worth. I think for me that’s what it means. I think any of your listeners should think about, well, what does it mean to them if they were to feel their power as a woman, what does it mean to them because I think that’s what’s most important.

Kevin Gaines (04:18):

You spend a lot of time talking to advisors and helping them have these conversations. Do you see a big difference between the conversations advisors think they should be having versus what they actually should be talking about, again, addressing the lack of power and confidence, really? Let me ask that question instead. Are we talking, when you say empower and empowerment, it’s a confidence issue, correct?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (04:47):

I think it’s a combination of things, Kevin. To answer that question around advisors, I think advisors are very well-intended and the majority of them want to do good by their clients and their female clients. I do think there is a fair share of them that believe they should be talking about only the technical side of finance, when in fact, when you look at not only just women but millennials, the next generation, a lot of men who maybe aren’t speaking up, they’re really interested in the human side, which is how do you think and feel about money? What are your values? How do you express your values through how you’re investing?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (05:21):

And so, I think sometimes the disconnect between what an advisor is focusing in on and maybe what some of your listeners want to focus in on is the area that I’m trying to educate advisors about. And, yes, I think it’s confidence but I also think, and I’d be curious what you two believe, that women get a bad rap. I know there’s some research out there saying that we’re not financially confident, and I’m not saying that’s not true, but somehow, we get put in this, women aren’t confident, men are confident. Women aren’t interested in finance, men are interested in finance and that’s simply is not true, but what do you think?

Kevin Gaines (05:57):

Well, interesting question. I would say, honestly, I run the gamut of the clients that I talk to, I find some of my female clients actually self-profess that, as they like to say, “I don’t know a lot about this stuff,” but others come in knowing exactly what they’re looking for, what they need, they’re not scared to ask for help. And then with my male clients it’s more of a flip side that they’re scared to ask for help because I don’t know if it’s they’re embarrassed that they’re supposed to have the power but they don’t and they don’t have the confidence so they think all we can talk about are investments and how to make more money and shy away from having the real conversations that are going to make a difference. And I think that leads to issues as well.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (06:50):

Well, and it’s interesting that you say that because I do think that this issue around women money and power isn’t about one gender that certainly there’s gender fluidity and it includes men as well, because I would actually argue that the downside for men is they have been socialized to not be able to be vulnerable, to show that when they don’t know something to ask for help, whereas women have been socialized to connect through being vulnerable, asking for help.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (07:18):

And so, in some ways we’ve overcorrected. Women need to empower themselves and feel a little bit more confident and men need to learn how to open up and say, “Hey, my wife knows a little bit more about that,” or, “My partner does.” Or, “Maybe could you teach me this?” So, I think it runs the gamut and it’s not a him versus her situation, so I’m glad you brought that up.

Stephanie McCullough (07:41):

I think too, one of the areas where our industry misses the mark is that kind of what you were saying, Kathleen, that the advisors think they should be talking about the technical stuff. And in my experience, most of the women I talk to, and I’m sure the people who work with me are the ones who are attracted to the way I talk about this stuff, but they want to talk about what the money means to them and what it can do for their lives and what it can make possible for their families and their communities as opposed to beating the S&P. That puts me to sleep now, that is not what interests my people, at least.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (08:15):

Well, and I think a lot of women, again I’m going to say next-gen because I think the next-gen is really interested more in experiences and tying values to investments and things like that, but I also think that’s where we live. If we think about where most consumers live, they don’t live in beating the S&P or understanding the history of the stock market, and there’s nothing wrong with being interested in that, but that isn’t what affects us on a day-to-day basis. I know for me and my husband when we work with a financial advisor the people that we pick are holistic and it starts off with, what’s important to you? What are the things in your life that matter and financially what do you want to invest in?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (08:53):

And what’s nice is when you work with the right person, they don’t judge us that my goal in retirement is to get a Sprinter van and be able to afford any kind of skis I want. Whereas, maybe somebody else might walk in and go, “Well, I just really want to make sure I can take care of my parents.” Yes, I want to take care of my parents but I want the Sprinter van and I want skis, and then my parents have done a pretty good job by themselves, but I will take care of my parents, as well.

Stephanie McCullough (09:20):

I love that. I think that’s exactly it. Before you can make any decisions about the money it’s what the heck is the money for? That’s how I always say is step zero, getting really clear on your own goals. But at the same time, I feel like the women I talk to have something about shying away from the idea of wanting power and trying to step into their economic… throwing their weight around economically and yet I firmly believe the world will be a better place when more women are financially stable, number one, but also are exercising their economic power and putting their dollars where their values are.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (10:00):

Yeah. I think we’re at this place that’s a weird spot in history where I feel like a lot of women, like you just said, believe that if we all stepped up and we spoke more and we embraced our power we’d be better off, but what actually happens in the real world is when we do that what happens is that there’s ramifications that are often quite different than for men. I’ve coached women around negotiating for a salary in a corporate environment, and this young woman, we coached her, she went into her HR professional and she asked for more money in a various sort of way and she was accused of being greedy.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (10:36):

Now, literally an HR person called her greedy. I really don’t think that happened to her male colleagues. Maybe, but I doubt it. And so, there is a way in which even if you want to claim your power, you have to have a pretty thick skin. I know for me as someone who is a successful business woman, who’s negotiating deals all the time to speak or big consulting engagements, it’s the same thing. There are times where I’m like, “I’m not sure that would have happened if I wasn’t a woman,” and I got to tell you, it hurts. So, I have a support system around me of women who are supporting each other, male allies, because it isn’t always so easy but I don’t think that we shouldn’t embrace our financial power because it’s hard, it’s just to realize that it’s a tricky point in history and we’re not there yet.

Stephanie McCullough (11:25):

Can you say more about that support system that you built, and is that something you recommend other women do, too?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (11:29):

I absolutely recommend other women do it. And what is interesting is when you look at money psychology and you look at where we are in, say our incomes or asset level, we tend to hang out with people that reinforce where we are and what we make. And so, you have to be really careful because you can surround yourself with a group of supports, say girlfriends in this case, where there is this silent, “Oh, I’m really jealous of your success,” or, “Oh, you make so much,” or, “Don’t get too full of yourself.” And it’s very subtle. Or you can surround yourself with girlfriends that get really excited when you get a raise or land a big deal.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (12:12):

And so, I have consciously sought out over my career, and it wasn’t conscious to begin with but it ended up being conscious in the end, women who can support me and I can talk about money with. And so, yeah, that’s my financial advisor but that’s also some of my business colleagues, some of my girlfriends, and I don’t want to leave Kevin out, male allies who give a great perspective. You just want to find people who are going to support you in embracing your financial power as opposed to very subtly keeping you in your spot.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (12:44):

And in terms of money psychology, to step out of that socioeconomic status or to step out of that income level, it takes a lot of inertia, and so really making sure you have somebody who can support you and help you through those tough times but then also celebrate the really good times. It’s really fun when somebody celebrates when you’ve gotten a raise or my girlfriend landed a six-figure job the other day and we all threw her a little Zoom party. It was exciting.

Kevin Gaines (13:10):

In the grand tradition of Take Back Retirement, let’s veer off course a little bit, because I was interested when you were talking about the negotiations and getting the pushback for being greedy. When you work with people, how do you talk to them about how do they overcome that objection or that perception?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (13:29):

I think the hard part, Kevin, is you can’t change how someone’s going to perceive you, but you can change what you do with what you anticipate will happen, I hope that makes sense. There’s unconscious bias out there. It’s always going to be there, it’s going to be there around gender, around other stuff, but we need to start to be more aware of it. And so, when women are negotiating, whether it’s negotiating a salary or negotiating with a partner in retirement about what retirement is going to look like, it’s really making sure that no matter what comes back at them that they understand where they’re coming from and they’re able to assertively reiterate what their value is. And in a business, so a business negotiation, that’s really about making the business case but also knowing that as a woman there are certain techniques that we can’t get away with that maybe men can. The really aggressive negotiation techniques backfire because of all the perceptions of women that are like that. Women get called the B word, whereas men get called, “Oh, he’s so powerful. Look at how impressive he is.” I think it’s anticipating that.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (14:36):

For the woman that was called greedy, she handled it beautifully yourself and she goes, you know what? I don’t see this as greed, I see this as compensation for my value. She was incredibly well-spoken, probably more well-spoken than I would have been and ultimately, I think the HR professional didn’t know what to do with her so she ended up getting the raise and then processing –

Kevin Gaines (14:58):

Hey, awesome.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (14:58):

Yeah, awesome, but processing those feelings afterwards because that’s a horrible thing to be called greedy when you’re just asking to be compensated fairly.

Kevin Gaines (15:07):

Yeah. I think back to the story and I think it was Sally Krawcheck who told this story. She now has her own firm but I think at the time she was either with Smith Barney or Merrill Lynch. I forget which company. And she would tell the story after the fact that even though she wanted to have equal pay for everybody, in our industry bonuses make up a lot of the salary. She would give most of the bonuses to the men and she said it was for the simple reason, they asked. She goes, “For whatever reason, when it came time for bonuses the male employees would sit there and bring up the issue or force the issue.” And she said, “The females, they didn’t ask so they didn’t get.” I guess even if you’re worried that you might get called the B word or greedy or whatever, it’s easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Would you agree with that?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (16:06):

Absolutely, you have to ask. And when I’m thinking back to when Sally was, the last place she was, was Merrill Lynch, that was a while ago. I also think that we have seen a shift in next-gen, so in the millennials and the upcoming Gen Zs, women are asking more and more. And so that is positive, speaking up and asking, but if you need to learn the techniques to be able to ask, and it is true, I’ve heard that from other HR professionals. And so, I actually interviewed somebody the other day for my own podcast about negotiating, and she’s an HR professional, and I said, “What do you do when a woman doesn’t ask?” She goes, “I kind of hint around, are there any other more questions or how is that? Do you want to see if you want to ask for more?” There’s a way in which you can encourage that and I know Sally has committed her life to doing this work now so certainly she’s gotten her revenge, hasn’t she?

Kevin Gaines (17:02):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (17:02):

Yeah, totally. You’re totally an expert on the psychology of wealth and I love that topic. What psychologically is it that gets in our way, in women’s way of really taking action on our own behalf?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (17:18):

Well, let me tell you about something that happened today when I was working with someone and I think that this is a great example of what typically happens. It’s that woman who works really hard, who believes that if I work hard and I do a good job and I take all the extra assignments or I go the extra degree in my business, that someone’s going to turn around and say, “Boy, you deserve more money,” and that is a faulty belief. And so, part of it is I think the myth or the expectation that if we do good work, we will be recognized. It would be great if that was the case but that isn’t currently how it works. And so, I think that’s the first thing. If you believe that if I work really, really hard and I’m going to be compensated fairly, you need to really challenge that. What you need to do is work really hard, learn how to ask to be compensated fairly and then hopefully you will be.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (18:11):

I think the other thing that happens is women are so relationship-oriented, the way our brains are wired, the way we are socialized. And I do think that often we put the other person first. The other person could be somebody’s boss, the other person could be somebody’s colleague, could be the clients. A lot of entrepreneurs really struggle with asking for their fees. I think in some ways there is a belief that if I ask for my value somehow, I’m doing something negative to the other person. But again, it’s reframing it to be if I ask for my value then I’m providing value, I’m role-modeling to other women and lo and behold, you actually are less resentful and do a better job. I hate this saying but I’ll say it, it’s a win-win.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (18:54):

And those are the things that get in the way. It’s all mindset. It’s usually the skills people know. It’s getting out of our own way. And I don’t know about… I don’t want to put you, Stephanie, on the spot, but as a woman I’ve certainly struggled with this in my early career. I don’t think it’s something that most of us don’t pass through as something we need to learn.

Stephanie McCullough (19:14):

Oh, totally. I find myself talking to my clients. I have several clients who are therapists and I’m always asking them what they’re charging, and I have one who’s lovely. She’s just an expert with children. She’s so great, and she charges less than somebody brand new down the street right out of school. “So and so down the street is charging $125 an hour and I’m only at $95.” That’s what I’ve been talking about. And she does have that idea that she’s somehow hurting the clients by increasing the fees. And yet I feel like I’m speaking out of both sides of my mouth because I’ve struggled with charging my own fees. I still have one of those therapists is still paying my old hourly fee because I feel guilty about increasing on her, so I’m kind of a hypocrite.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (20:00):

Well, you’re not a hypocrite, you’re a human being who has work to do. The other thing for people to be thinking about is what are those types of clients or what are those situations where all of a sudden, you’re feeling guilty, or maybe I’ll give them a discount. I know for me, people may not know this but I’m a recovered therapist. I had been a therapist for 15 years so I know that world very, very well. And-

Stephanie McCullough (20:22):

Got it.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (20:22):

… One of the things that used to be really hard for me was to charge the single mother with kids. There was something about the single mother with kids that all of a sudden, I’d be like, “Oh, maybe I should give a sliding scale,” before they even asked. And so, whether you are a therapist or whether you are a financial advisor or in a different position, I think the thing to be thinking about is if you are asking for your worth, you are role modeling to that person. What’s the worst thing that can happen? They say no. In fact, way back when I was a therapist and raised my rates the first time, I had one client I had for five years and she said, “I’ve been waiting for the last two years for you to raise your rates.” And she happily would pay me the increase rate. Sometimes or often it’s our own money mindset that gets in the way.

Stephanie McCullough (21:12):

I totally believe that. I heard this one story about, I think it was this woman was a consultant to retail and she worked with a local gift shop and the gift shop was struggling, things weren’t leaving the shelves. And she came in and said, “Double all your prices.” And the owner was like, “I can’t possibly do that. That’s terrible.” She finally convinced her, she doubled all the prices and things sold. There’s a psychology of money on the buyers’ side as well. The value that we attach to things is somehow connected to the price tag.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (21:44):

It is. And I think you get a choice. Where do you want to be? Do you want to shop at the boutique where you pay more but get clothes that nobody else has? Do you want to shop at the big box store because it’s cheaper or somewhere in between? And so, as a business owner or as a person in a firm you also have to be thinking about where do I want to be and you get to choose. I’m not going to judge somebody who says, “You know what? I really want to serve this population and this is the rate I’m going to charge.” But if you’re doing out of guilt or you’re doing it to avoid talking about money then I think it’s an issue that you probably should take a look at.

Stephanie McCullough (22:17):

Yeah. Back to your greedy comment, though. I do find myself pushing back, though, against the idea that a woman taking care of her own finances and trying to accumulate assets and asking for more money, I feel the women also sometimes feel it’s selfish. “Oh, but I should take care of my kids,” or, “I should take care of my parents.” Or, “If I’m giving unpaid care, I shouldn’t ask for money for that.” I think we do have that, well, many of us have socialized and picked up that idea that it is selfish and I disagree. But, what do you think?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (22:55):

I agree that I hear that a lot and it’s the classic example of I have to pay for Johnny’s hockey, but I’m not going to save for retirement. But you can probably find scholarships eventually for Johnny’s hockey but there’s no scholarship for your retirement. I think part of that is educating women, and I know you both do this, about the fact that if you take care of YOUR financial health what ends up happening is then you’re able to contribute more to your kids, to the community.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (23:29):

For instance, one of the things that happened during the pandemic was the PPP loans that were going around. And so, I had one woman call me and she goes, “I think,” a coaching client of mine, “I think I should take a PPP loan but I feel really guilty.” And so, we explored why she felt guilty. She felt like other people were worse off and she shouldn’t take money away from other people, those typical thoughts. And I said to her, “Well, what if you get that PPP loan? If you qualify you should be able to get it. And if you get it then you can give back in different ways.” It’s like, if we are financially empowered then we can give back more, as opposed to, if we’re financially empowered somehow, we’re taking it away from somebody. I don’t know if men have that belief.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (24:13):

Kevin, you don’t have to represent the whole male race, but the idea that somehow, we’re taking it away is that scarcity thing as opposed to we can all lift each other up. And I know I wasn’t raised with that. My parents were great but I was raised a thrifty Yankee, and you bet, there wasn’t enough to go around. But that just simply isn’t true and it feels really great to be able to be generous that way because you’re taking care of yourself financially so you can give back.

Kevin Gaines (24:41):

I would say everybody, most people I know are going to be happy if everybody is in a better place. Then you’re going to be able to make better decisions, you’re going to be able to help more people, as you were just saying. I would almost use the analogy that it’s a bad setup but it’s almost like when an airplane is having issues, the masks drop down, you put the mask on yourself first. You’re supposed to. If you don’t, that’s a bad thing.

Stephanie McCullough (25:12):

Because if you pass out you can’t help anybody.

Kevin Gaines (25:13):

Exactly. If you-

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (25:15):

Correct.

Kevin Gaines (25:15):

… Haven’t kept care of yourself financially, how can you do all the other things that you want to do or feel you have to do or whatever that driving emotion is? If you don’t keep care of yourself, who is?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (25:30):

Well, and I think the other thing that you just made me think of, Kevin, is how much money represents or symbolizes other stuff. It’s complicated, it’s not just the knowledge, it’s, what does it mean if I’m taking and giving myself money? What does it mean… Do I love the other people if for some reason I’m having them fund their own college versus me fund it? What does it mean if I am asking for more money? How is that going to affect my relationship if I’m in a partnership with somebody and they make less? It’s just the symbolization of what it means about love, control, power. It’s so complicated, which is makes it so fascinating it’s why I do what I do.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (26:15):

But there isn’t a simple answer. I think what’s important and what my call to action would be for people listening is whatever area that you feel this discomfort, that to try to break that money silence, to delve in a little bit and understand where that comes from so then you can make a conscious choice. Do I want to keep doing this or do I want to do something different? Because you can decide to do something different whether you’re listening and you’re 25 or you’re 75, it really doesn’t matter. It’s just making a conscious choice, can also feel empowering, whatever that choice is.

Stephanie McCullough (26:49):

Yeah. We talk about that a lot, trying to bring to light whatever those unconscious money beliefs and attitudes we picked up along the way that are driving our behaviors and we might not even know it. I always say I’m not a therapist, I’ve never studied that stuff, but let’s try to talk about it and cast a little sunshine on it so that you can then make more intentional choices going forward. And if you choose to do the same thing, great, but you did it mindfully as opposed to on autopilot.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (27:18):

Well, I imagine with retirement and negotiating conversations around retirement, you must run into this a lot with partners and with women looking at this next stage of their lives.

Stephanie McCullough (27:30):

Yeah, that’s something I wanted to ask you about too. We’ve been talking about power in the world more broadly but what about power and relationships and money? And I know that you do quite a lot of work on communicating with couples, how does that play in?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (27:44):

Oh, that is another 20-to-40-minute podcast. Couples and money and power, if you think about it, whether you’re conscious of it or not, often the person that makes more money holds a little bit more power and so it’s unconscious. Again, it’s talking about it in a relationship. And in my relationship, I have been the primary breadwinner, I’ve also been the grad student that’s made nothing, and it’s called the see-saw marriage. That’s what they call it. Sometimes he earns more, sometimes I earn more and it’s very, very interesting to have that experience.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (28:21):

Now, I feel privileged because I’ve had choices to be the breadwinner or not the breadwinner. Not every woman has that. But when I was making nothing, I had trouble even buying a toilet brush cleaner without his permission and he didn’t care. My husband really is pretty generous around money and didn’t care but I just felt, “Oh, do I spend $7 or $12 on that?” It became really big. And then the minute I got a job again after I had graduated and started making money, I can remember the first purchase. I walked into Pier 1, my husband and I, actually we were buying the thing that my computer is on right now and there was a coat rack.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (29:01):

And I bought this table and I said, “I want that coat rack.” And my husband, Brian, goes, “Oh, you don’t need that coat rack.” I said, “I know.” But he said, “But I’m buying it.” And he really did not want to buy it. And so, he walked out to the car to go get it ready to get the table and I looked at the woman, I said, “I’ll take the coat rack.” And so, I still have that coat rack. It symbolizes, I’m back. I don’t know if that’s a healthy-

Stephanie McCullough (29:24):

Yeah.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (29:24):

… Expression of power in a couple hood but he laughed at it and now we have a great coat rack.

Kevin Gaines (29:28):

There you go.

Stephanie McCullough (29:33):

Yeah. There’s different levels of what the things that we buy mean. I love Meir Statman and how he talks about everything we buy has three levels of value, the utilitarian. That yes, it will hold your coats. The emotional, it was that feeling for you of, “Hey, I have the power to do this now because I’m making my own money.” And then the expressive, what you thought that coat rack said about you to anybody who came in and saw it.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (29:59):

Right, right.

Stephanie McCullough (29:59):

I think that’s an interesting perspective.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (30:02):

Well, I think in terms of advice for couples I think one of the things is just to sit down and have conversations about money. Sometimes that’s not so easy, but when it comes to power and control, I wouldn’t start with that topic I would start with things like, what do you like about how we are managing our relationship with money? What’s one financial success you’ve had that you’re proud of that I may or may not know about? And then over time getting to, what is it like when we’re earning money equally versus when we’re not? How do you think that affects our relationship? Whenever you can directly address it, and it doesn’t have to be a big, long, huge therapy session, it can be 10 or 15 minutes and just checking in every once in a while. Because whether you’re aware of it or not, those dynamics do shift and change over your partnership and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s just being aware and being sensitive to the other person.

Stephanie McCullough (30:57):

I love that suggestion. Thank you.

Kevin Gaines (30:59):

Well, Stephanie, you would like that suggestion because you’re so much better at the introductory conversations than I am, but you have your line. Tell me your money story. That’s your what first and maybe even the first two meetings understanding the emotions, not necessarily the psychology of the money but how your clients relate emotionally to money, both good and bad. And I think that’s a really powerful conversation that you have.

Kevin Gaines (31:26):

But secretly I’m hoping for a little free coaching here, so let me try to phrase your question, not so greedily, so to speak. One of the biggest problems I find with couples that I work with is the shared goals versus the individual goals. That when I’m talking to the couple together, this is what we want to do in retirement. But then when I’m able to get them alone and have a little one-on-one conversation, that joint goal isn’t necessarily the individual goal, that they have their own objectives, their own things that they want to do that’s going to make their retirement complete. How often do you come across couples having these conversations like that, just, I guess, talking at cross purposes, maybe?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (32:16):

I think it’s healthy to have some shared goals and to have some independent goals in retirement or ideas of what you want to do. I think it really comes down to do you have shared values? And if most of your values are shared you can plan your retirement around that and how are you going to use money or the money you’ve saved to express that. And I think the individual goals are important as well. I think the dilemma becomes, and I’m sure you see this, Kevin, is when someone feels resentful or upset that somebody else wants to spend time differently. I would like to go travel in retirement, I would like to jump in my Sprinter van, and while my husband might want to do that for a month out of the year, he would be resentful if I forced him to do it for a year.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (33:07):

Then it becomes, well, what do you want to do? I want to mountain bike; I want to now travel for nine months out of the year. And so, it’s a negotiation again and negotiating that process. I think it’s important to talk about it and I think that’s where financial advisors can come in and say, “It’s okay to have shared goals and independent goals, but let’s look at how this is going to work together.” And sometimes there’s huge conflict and it’s not going to work together but I think often you can get to a place of some sort of an agreement.

Stephanie McCullough (33:36):

Kathleen, you’ve mentioned negotiation several times and I know this is a topic that you’re thinking on. Can you tell us what you have going on that you’re offering on negotiation for women?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (33:45):

Absolutely, I’m very excited. I have some online courses on negotiation. I have one that is absolutely free that people can check out. I also have a masterclass that’s coming up. So, you get courses, you get access to me for individual and group coaching, and so it’s for a smaller group of women that really want to do more in-depth work. And you can go to courses.breakingmoneysilence.com and all those different options will come up. And so, I will give you a discount code, the Take Back Retirement show a discount code so people can get 10% off, whichever of the courses you would like to participate in. I will make sure we put that in the show notes, or you’ll make sure we put that in the show notes.

Stephanie McCullough (34:31):

We will. Thank you so much, that’s very generous of you.

Kevin Gaines (34:33):

I appreciate it.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (34:35):

The other thing I just want to mention is that if people just want to get a sense of Breaking Money Silence and want to get triggered every week as to money psychology and the topics you could be talking about with your partner or with your kids or with your girlfriends, you can check out my podcast, breakingmoneysilence.com and you can just go to any podcast app and pull that up.

Stephanie McCullough (34:56):

Yeah, that’s a great podcast. And, Kathleen, as I mentioned has been doing the podcast thing for quite a while. She’s got a great series of guests and they get into some really juicy topics.

Kevin Gaines (35:07):

I wanted to ask you about your one book because, frankly, I was intrigued by what this does, the Creating Wealth from the Inside Out Workbook. Read about it on Amazon. It sounds like it’s something interesting that people can do on their own if they don’t want to have conversations, work with financial advisors, or intimidated or whatever. Is this workbook going to help them get more confident?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (35:35):

Yeah, that’s a great question and I’m smiling because that’s the book that often isn’t mentioned so it’s like the poor little kid that never gets any attention in the corner, so thank you for asking. The Creating Wealth From the Inside Out Workbook was developed, I developed it when I started in this field, and the whole goal of it is for us to… Or the reader to look at what their definition of wealth is. And then I take them through a process of understanding their money mindset a little bit better and being able to get to a place where they can have more peace in their relationship with money. It’s a great place to start, it’s an easy read. And I did not intend this when I wrote this workbook but this is what happened. When women in partnerships bought that book often, they would start engaging in these conversations with their partners and it would open up the dialogue so it was almost a precursor to the most recent book I wrote on the topic.

Stephanie McCullough (36:34):

That’s great, thank you. We’ll definitely link to that one.

Kevin Gaines (36:36):

Well, I’m glad you finished that way because you saved me from asking the next question, was, is this something you can do with your partner using this workbook, but it definitely sounds like something you would want to?

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (36:47):

Yeah. You can use it individually; you can use it with your partner. You could even do a study group with your girlfriends. The one thing I will say is if you want my most recent work, the Breaking Money Silence Book that is not a workbook, it’s a book. This book has a ton of activities in it and it is very consumer-friendly, so you might want to check out that one as well. But whatever works for you. Sometimes people like the simplicity of a workbook so go for it, and sometimes people like to dig a little bit deeper. And in Breaking Money Silence we look at not only conversations with partners but with our aging parents, with our kids, with ourselves so it’s a little bit broader in the context and still has those activities at the end of every chapter because I’m a coach at heart and I just love activities.

Stephanie McCullough (37:35):

That’s perfect. We’re always harping on people that have the conversations. Talk to your parents, talk to your partner, let’s not keep this stuff hidden. So, I love your theme of breaking money silence. Thank you, Kathleen.

Kevin Gaines (37:49):

Thank you.

Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (37:50):

Thank you, Stephanie and Kevin, it’s been great breaking money silence with you and talking about women, money, and power.

Stephanie McCullough (38:00):

Well, that was really fun. I really enjoy Kathleen and how willing she is to dive into the sometimes-sticky topics around our money, our psychology, women and power, I really appreciate that.

Kevin Gaines (38:13):

It was good. I was glad to hear it. I was glad to meet her. I know you’ve talked to her but this was the first time I got to meet her one-on-one. And I think she had a lot of good stuff to say, that all of us, I’m going to say, listen, I learned some stuff that’s hopefully going to make me a better advisor or at least stuff to think about to make me a better advisor, so definitely I appreciate her being on with us today.

Stephanie McCullough (38:36):

I really am intrigued by her negotiation course and I think I’m going to check out the free course she’s got available, because so much of the money stuff that we run into in life ends up being a negotiation even if it’s just with our life partner, people in our family that we have to make financial decisions with. I really like her focus on, it’s not just knowing that you should ask but knowing some specific tactics and ways to ask. Because she’s right on, how women are perceived impacts how our questions land, the results we get, but also our willingness to ask in the first place.

Kevin Gaines (39:17):

Yeah. I definitely support that idea because the conversations I’ve had with women, and it’s not just the pushback they get but it’s internal as well, worried about being perceived as that way. Having some help and some guidance on how to position the conversation goes a long way because if you don’t ask, they’re not going to say yes.

Stephanie McCullough (39:40):

Yeah, very true.

Kevin Gaines (39:41):

That leads to one of the things I’m intrigued by are her books. That she says because she does coaching the workbook obviously is going to be interactive, for lack of a better word, little tasks or ways to practice. But her newest book as well that she has at the end of each chapter ways to implement the stuff that she’s talking about. Because, I’ll tell you when I read a book I just get sucked into the book and then I put it down and I don’t always, I’m not still thinking about this stuff I was thinking about when I was reading the book. It gives you these little call to actions or these inspirations to do something to get something out of the books. Yeah, I think those are probably definitely worth checking out.

Stephanie McCullough (40:25):

Yeah. And I didn’t remember that she had been a therapist in her past life, so I’m sure as now a coach as well, she definitely asks the good questions and that’s what we like, asking the good questions. But the most important thing she said today was that I am not a hypocrite, I am a human being that has work to do. I like that very much; I’m going to remember that.

Kevin Gaines (40:46):

That’s a good phrase.

Stephanie McCullough (40:48):

Thanks so much for being with us, we’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (40:53):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (40:55):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only, Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Narrator (41:09):

Investment advice offered through private advisor group, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Private advisor group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material, are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice, or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor, prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.