Meg Wheeler (00:00):

But I think the other piece of language is learning how to talk about it in a way that doesn’t add on to the shame or the guilt or the judgment. So, entering a conversation, talking about money, instead of saying things like, “I’m so bad with money” — I mean, it’s okay to express your feelings, “I feel ashamed, I feel whatnot.”

Meg Wheeler (00:18):

But we want to stay away from those statements that continue to make money and talking about money an uncomfortable and bad thing. And so, instead of saying things like, “I’m so bad with money,” it’s saying, “I haven’t yet learned how to manage my money. I’m starting to explore what it means to save for retirement.” It’s just the way we talk about things, the way we talk about ourselves changes how we show up.

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:49):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:24):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit geeky and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

 

Stephanie McCullough (02:13):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:24):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:25):

Today, we’re talking to Meg Wheeler, and you’ll see why we were excited to talk to Meg. She has a huge focus on financial education. Meg is a CPA (Certified Public Accountant), and also the founder of the Equitable Money Project, which offers accessible financial education to support primarily marginalized small business owners in building impactful generational wealth in order to eradicate economic inequality.

Stephanie McCullough (02:53):

Meg combines her political and civic activism work and her more than 15 years of tax strategy and planning expertise to support small business owners to set up and manage the financial side of their businesses through an inclusive and equitable lens, which addresses the disadvantages and systemic failures in our current economic and political systems.

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (03:11):

Meg is also the host of the Disrupt Your Money Podcast and the Equitable Money Project on YouTube. Here we go with our conversation with Meg.

Stephanie McCullough (03:24):

Meg Wheeler, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Meg Wheeler (03:26):

Thanks so much for having me.

Stephanie McCullough (03:28):

So, I’m excited for this conversation because you have a giant focus on financial education.

Meg Wheeler (03:35):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (03:36):

How did this become to be a focus for you?

Meg Wheeler (03:39):

Well, you know I took a very traditional route in my career. I worked in public accounting, I worked in a big corporation, and when I decided to leave, and I actually started a completely different business. I sold physical products, which I hated. I hate having inventory in my house.

Meg Wheeler (03:55):

But through that, I was meeting a lot of folks, a lot of business owners who had questions about money. And they didn’t really know what they were supposed to be doing with their money, they didn’t know how to save for retirement.

Meg Wheeler (04:08):

And this was particularly the case for folks who were not in the traditional workplace environment where they had the 401(k). But even for those folks, they were like, “Okay, I have the 401(k), but what else?” And so, I started to realize pretty quickly, “Hey, I know the answer to these questions.”

Meg Wheeler (04:23):

And that’s really when I started answering them, and then I thought, let me actually make this my business. And through all of that work, I’ve realized how critical financial education is, especially for folks who didn’t grow up with wealth, who didn’t grow up with any kind of home economics class. Let’s face it, those are the things of the past when we were in school.

Meg Wheeler (04:44):

And so, a lot of us just don’t even know the basics. And that’s not on us. That’s on our society failing to teach us that. But if we don’t learn it now, we’re really going to set ourselves back.

Stephanie McCullough (04:55):

That’s really true. And that’s one of the reasons I hate the word “financial literacy” that term. Because it implies some kind of shame. Like, “Oh, what, you can’t read?” There were people trying to teach us to read since the time we were, what, like three or four.

Stephanie McCullough (05:10):

Nobody teaches us about money, and yet somehow, we kind of get to adulthood feeling like we should know. Women say to me all the time, “I know I should know this stuff.” What’s your response to that?

Meg Wheeler (05:21):

Yeah, number one, I hear it all the time. I think every single person in our community has said it. And it’s one of the things that I really try to work with our folks to help them understand, “Why should we know this when we’ve never been taught it in school?”

Meg Wheeler (05:36):

In many cases (and this of course depends on your culture and your family), it’s not something that was talked about in your home. And especially, if you were a woman, we add on that layer of it. So why? I mean, I don’t know about brain surgery. I don’t know about, I don’t know, environmental science.

Meg Wheeler (05:53):

I’m looking at the beautiful leaves outside my window, but I don’t know about these things. And I don’t feel shame in not knowing about these things because they were never … not only were they not taught to me, but the education wasn’t accessible for me to engage in. I think that’s the other critical point, too.

Meg Wheeler (06:09):

This is not about blaming necessarily and saying, “Well, no one taught us.” I mean, that’s part of it, but it’s also about saying there’s not great education out there. Now, we have a lot more now with social media and YouTube and all these things.

Meg Wheeler (06:20):

But even then, who can we trust? How do we know if we can rely on it? Is it the right fit for us? And so, we now have, maybe arguably, more education than ever, but is it the right education?

Kevin Gaines (06:33):

I would almost say it’s like there’s more information out there than ever before. But half of it (and I’m being extremely generous)-

Meg Wheeler (06:43):

Yes, you are.

Kevin Gaines (06:46):

Is total bunk.

Meg Wheeler (06:48):

And you don’t know that either. I think it’s also increasingly harder to discern what is and what isn’t, especially with social media. Because you’re seeing people say, “Well, I did it, and this is what I got. This is what my life looks like now that I did it.”

Meg Wheeler (07:01):

And I think for a majority of those people, they’re probably lying. They’re just probably flat out lying. But even the folks who are showing you what their life really is, just because it worked for them, doesn’t mean it’s the right choice for you. And so, it’s really hard to understand who to listen to.

Stephanie McCullough (07:16):

But I think that’s true even in the analog world. Like maybe your neighbor works in the financial field, which, let’s be honest, is a broad area. Maybe they’re the controller for a giant corporation or something, and therefore, you think, “Oh, I should trust that person, I should do what they do.” Which is not necessarily the right thing for your situation.

Meg Wheeler (07:41):

Exactly. And I think also, not necessarily even based on – they don’t have all the facts. I always joke when people ask me … it never fails if I go to a party, someone always asks me tax advice. I don’t know why. Why are we talking about taxes at parties?

Stephanie McCullough (07:55):

Because you have CPA attached to your name.

Meg Wheeler (07:58):

I know, but there are better things to talk about at a party. I’m always like, “I don’t have any of the facts, so I can tell you what I’ve done, I can give you sort of examples or ideas, but I don’t know your specific situation.” And so, we have to just remember that. That even when we’re seeing someone online, if it worked for them, doesn’t mean it’s going to work for you.

Stephanie McCullough (08:17):

Well, and let’s be honest, and that’s true with a lot of the big talking heads. Not to name names, Susie Orman, but the one-size-fits-all advice isn’t right either. This product is terrible for everyone. Not necessarily, products are not good or evil. They just have certain characteristics that you need to understand and pros and cons, and whether that works with your situation.

Meg Wheeler (08:39):

We see this come up in our community a lot around debt. Because we get a lot of folks who come to us who have been given the message of debt is bad, debt is horrible, you’re bad for having debt. And that’s a huge – I mean, there’s so many — in fact, we do a whole workshop on debt, and one of our slides is, I think it’s like 21 different factors that lead to people getting into debt. And most people have at least 5 or 10 of those factors are part of their story.

Meg Wheeler (09:05):

And we have lots of people who use debt to their advantage as an opportunity. And I think that’s such a critical piece of this. I always give the example to my folks of big companies aren’t sitting there paying cash for everything. They’re leveraging debt. And so, again, it’s that messaging of “This is bad, this is wrong.” “You are bad, you’re wrong, you’ve failed if you do it this way.”

Stephanie McCullough (09:29):

And I think money carries a lot of that judgment, whereas maybe brain surgery doesn’t. You have this reality in your life, therefore, you are a bad person. That often leads us to, obviously, the shame, but then that can lead to avoidance or totally freezing up and not taking action.

Stephanie McCullough (09:51):

I met a woman last year who was 62 and said she was terrified of money, and she found it humiliating that she’s terrified of money. So, she’s filled with terror and humiliation. How can she possibly take any positive action?

Meg Wheeler (10:06):

And I think the number of folks that I talk to, primarily women who their spouses will die, and they say, “I knew nothing about the money. I don’t know where the money is, I don’t know what we have.” Or they get divorced, or just in general, I don’t know. And that leads to that shame, because they don’t know and they feel disempowered, and it’s a huge problem.

Kevin Gaines (10:31):

So, Meg, let me ask you this question: when you meet with somebody the first time (and we can describe them however you want to describe them to answer this question), what’s typically the first conversation or first couple conversations you have with them.

Meg Wheeler (10:47):

Yeah! One of the first things we do with the folks who come into our community is we just ask them to tell us their story. I don’t have a long list of questions, I don’t say, “Do you have a 401(k)? Do you have this? Do you have that?”

Meg Wheeler (11:00):

I say, “Just tell me your story. Tell me who you are, what you do — not in terms of work, but what you do in life.” And I think the first thing I see is that through that, they start talking about money because that’s why they’re there.

Meg Wheeler (11:12):

And they start to feel better once they’re talking about money. I think any of us who’ve gone to therapy know that the minute you start talking about something, even if it’s not fixed, you start to feel a little bit better that someone else is shouldering that burden with you.

Meg Wheeler (11:24):

And a lot of times that first call is really just that. It’s just sharing the story and me adding, or my team adding some validation that number one, this is normal. I love when people tell me, “Oh, I’ve got such a unique situation.” It’s never unique. You are not alone in this. That they’re not alone, that it’s normal.

Meg Wheeler (11:46):

Two, that it’s not their fault. And again, it’s not about trying to get rid of personal responsibility, but it’s about that recognition that there are so many (like I said, with the debt) other factors that play into who we are with money, how we are with money.

Meg Wheeler (12:05):

We can talk about genetics, we talk about societal factors. There are so many different factors. And so, understanding that their personal responsibility is just a piece of that I think is really helpful to sort of give them that permission to not be perfect.

Stephanie McCullough (12:21):

Right, right! And I think the fact that the medical healthcare system in this country is totally messed up, and a lot of people end up with medical debt. It’s not your fault you had appendicitis or had a dread disease or a cancer treatment.

Stephanie McCullough (12:40):

To kind of still internalize that message that, “Oh, I’m bad because of this.” And even just we live in a consumer society, we’re bombarded with marketing messages and keep up with the Joneses’ messages. Target knows all the ways to get you to spend your money. And here we are, not realizing we’re being manipulated. Of course, you’re going to spend $250 when you went in for a pack of gum.

Meg Wheeler (13:06):

And the basics are so expensive that a lot of people can’t even afford the basics anymore. We’re not at a point anymore where you can have a one-income household that can comfortably afford good housing and groceries and healthcare.

Stephanie McCullough (13:22):

In a lot of places, yeah.

Meg Wheeler (13:24):

So, it’s a struggle. And people need to hear that. They need to understand that this is not just them.

Stephanie McCullough (13:30):

So, you’ve mentioned the word “community” a few times. I think one of the other problems is that people don’t feel comfortable talking to anybody about this stuff. Even their best friends, they might never talk about money. So, they had just interiorized-

Meg Wheeler (13:44):

Internalized.

Stephanie McCullough (13:46):

Internalized. I can’t do that word today.

Kevin Gaines (13:48):

Hey, I like that word. Hey, that’s a good word, Stephanie. You might have to start using it.

Meg Wheeler (13:50):

I like that. I’m going to use that.

Stephanie McCullough (13:53):

They internalize again the worry, the anxiety, and the “Well, no one else is dealing with this. I must be the only one. I’m terrible.” What role does community and seeing that others are struggling with the same thing play?

Meg Wheeler (14:07):

This is such a huge topic for us and for me personally, because I think that creating safe spaces for people to talk about money is one of the most powerful things we can do right now to make the world better for change.

Meg Wheeler (14:21):

And I still remember a few years ago, a good friend of mine who’s in her 40s had a great job. She was always the responsible friend. She had everything figured out. And she came to me, and she asked me about retirement. And I realized she hadn’t really been saving much for retirement.

Meg Wheeler (14:36):

And she said, “I don’t really know what to do. I don’t know how to do this.” And that was shocking to me because I thought, “Well, you have everything figured out if you don’t know.” And she even said, “We don’t talk about money in my family, I’ve never talked to my friends about money.” She felt so embarrassed to talk to me about it.

Meg Wheeler (14:53):

And that was such a great wake-up call because I’m used to it. We work with a lot of folks who, depending on their cultural background, talking about money was always a no-no. A lot of folks who have money trauma, money baggage.

Meg Wheeler (15:04):

They either came from families that didn’t have a lot, and so money was always a scarcity thing. Or they came from families that had a lot, and money was always a guilt, a burden for them.

Meg Wheeler (15:17):

And so, what I’ve tried to, and what we do in our community, is really help people learn the language to be able to talk about money in a safe way. Because I don’t think we have that language. I mean, could you picture, I don’t know, picking up your phone and texting your friend and being like, “Hey, how are you? What’s your balance between your Traditional and Roth and your 401(k)?”

Meg Wheeler (15:38):

That’s just not something that most people are texting about. So, it’s creating a way to be able to talk about that. And I will say (a little bit of a tangent, but I think it’s relevant here), we’re seeing more and more states pass pay transparency laws, which I think is really helpful for this.

Meg Wheeler (15:53):

Because so often, that money shame, if it’s not starting at home, it’s starting in the workplace too. It’s like we can’t talk about what you’re being paid or what that looks like, and even just be able to talk about that with your coworkers in a safe way, I think it’s creating another space where we can do that, which is huge. But it’s hard.

Meg Wheeler (16:13):

And I will say for anyone who’s a parent or a grandparent listening, having these conversations with your kids or your grandkids is such a gift that you can give them. I’ve got an 8-year-old, and we talk about money all the time because it’s an important piece of it. And we want to destigmatize those conversations.

Stephanie McCullough (16:31):

I think so. Because if it’s not talked about, the kids are going to guess and make assumptions, and draw their own conclusions. Just like anything that’s not talked about, you kind of make up your own story, and it’s not just a single conversation. I like the idea that you talk about it regularly.

Meg Wheeler (16:52):

And by the way, it’s okay for it to be uncomfortable. I still remember the first time my son, probably like six at the time, asked what we paid for our house. My initial gut reaction was like, “I’m not going to tell you that.” And my worry was, I didn’t want him going to school and telling everyone, even though anyone can look this up. But that was my initial gut reaction.

Meg Wheeler (17:11):

And then I thought, “Wait a second, let me examine this. Let me move through this.” And we did talk to him about it, and we actually used it as a great way to explain how, yes, it’s really important to talk about money with your friends, your peers, your community, but also to do it in a respectful way. You don’t want anyone, “This is what my parents paid for their house.”

Meg Wheeler (17:31):

You don’t want anyone to feel lesser than or anything like that. So, that was actually a really interesting conversation to have because yes, we want to talk about money, but how do we do it in a way that everyone in that conversation feels safe?

Stephanie McCullough (17:43):

You mentioned learning the language. Can you give us and our listeners some ideas? What language or what kind of conversation starters do you recommend to people?

Meg Wheeler (17:57):

When I say “learning language,” I think it’s two buckets. So, one, I think there’s just the jargon. And as a CPA, I’m so comfortable with the jargon that I constantly have to remind myself that other people aren’t. So, I think that’s really, really key.

Meg Wheeler (18:12):

And I also think for folks who are not CPAs or not finance professionals, it’s important to understand the jargon, but you don’t need to be a professional at it. So, this isn’t something you should be spending hours memorizing. All the different terms of the retirement accounts or whatnot. But you want to be able to (it’s a language) be comfortable talking about it.

Meg Wheeler (18:30):

But I think the other piece of language is learning how to talk about it in a way that doesn’t add on to the shame or the guilt or the judgment. So, entering a conversation, talking about money, instead of saying things like, “I’m so bad with money …”

Meg Wheeler (18:45):

I mean, it’s okay to express your feelings. “I feel ashamed, I feel whatnot.” But we want to stay away from those statements that continue to make money and talking about money, an uncomfortable and bad thing.

Meg Wheeler (18:57):

And so, instead of saying things like, “I’m so bad with money,” it’s saying, “I haven’t yet learned how to manage my money. I’m starting to explore what it means to save for retirement.” It’s just the way we talk about things, the way we talk about ourselves changes how we show up.

Meg Wheeler (19:13):

And so, I think that’s a really core piece of it. And that’s the thing that takes more time. That’s the piece we have to work through, because pretty much everyone I know has money baggage. So, we have to dig through that before we can really gain that language.

Stephanie McCullough (19:26):

So, a couple of things you’ve said, Meg, remind me of this idea that some people think … okay, I am going from the point of knowing what I think of is next to nothing about money, and I need to then become an expert. I got to go get a freaking MBA in personal finance or something in order to be able to make any good decisions. I have a response to that, but what’s your response to that?

Meg Wheeler (19:50):

Oh, I’m excited to hear your response too. Look, I think this is like anything. I’m currently trying to get healthier, and I’m not going out there to become a bodybuilding, vegan eating — I don’t even know what are the extremes?

Stephanie McCullough (20:06):

Ultramarathoner.

Meg Wheeler (20:06):

Ultramarathoner. Oh, my gosh, I can’t even imagine. No, no, absolutely not. It’s not even on my radar. So, I think there’s two, again, two pieces to this. The first is to – and I’m not a big journaler – but I think journaling in this case, or even just writing it down or typing it or whatever works for you, is helpful. It’s what are you trying to do?

Meg Wheeler (20:28):

Are you trying to make your family more financially secure? And if so, why? Are you trying to feel more comfortable talking about money? Are you trying to feel more in control of your own money? Maybe financially you’re secure, but you just don’t really feel like you understand everything.

Meg Wheeler (20:46):

So, I think identifying that goal is really important at first. And then once you do that, it’s about recognizing that the way to get there isn’t to become the ultramarathoner or the MBA CPA expert. It’s these small incremental steps that you can take every single day. Because so much of our day is interacting with money in some way.

Meg Wheeler (21:11):

And I’m literally on week one of eating healthy. Yesterday, I went out to a restaurant, which is the first time I’d done that this week, it was about making smarter choices. It wasn’t about having this fabulously healthy meal because I was eating out. It was about making a smarter choice in what I chose in that environment. And I think it’s the same thing with money.

Meg Wheeler (21:33):

It’s about just those incremental shifts that we make that over time are going to add up. But we’re never going to get anywhere if out the door we say, “I’m going to be the ultramarathoner.” If that’s what you want, fine. But even the ultramarathoner didn’t start on day one as an ultramarathoner. They grew over time.

Stephanie McCullough (21:52):

And just to note that I have met more than one graduate of really high-level MBA programs who learned nothing about personal finance. So, that wasn’t even the best-

Meg Wheeler (22:00):

Oh, gosh, they don’t teach you a thing about personal finance.

Stephanie McCullough (22:03):

Our point is, you don’t have to know all the answers, but you need to know the questions to ask and have the guts to ask them. So, back to your kind of thing, it’s questions of yourself and questions of others.

Meg Wheeler (22:17):

Well, and I also think too (because I get this a lot) folks will come to our client calls and they’ll say, “I know I’m supposed to ask you a bunch of questions, I don’t know what to ask you.” So, if that’s you, if you fit into that bucket … because I completely agree with what you said about asking questions. But if you’re sitting there going, “But I don’t know the questions to ask, or what if I hit that point?” Go back to, again, what do you want?

Meg Wheeler (22:37):

I want to be able to retire comfortably in this place near my family, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Start there, and have that conversation. And out of that, you will find questions. So, if the question thing gives you anxiety (like I know it does for a lot of our folks), just start by talking about what you want, and it’ll come.

Stephanie McCullough (22:58):

In a safe space.

Meg Wheeler (22:59):

Yes, yes.

Kevin Gaines (23:01):

In your community (because I want to get back to the kids), as people are getting more comfortable with accepting what they know and don’t know and getting better, does the question come up, “How do I encourage my kids to get, maybe not interested, but to ask questions? How do I bring this up to my kids, and what’s okay to bring up as opposed to too much?” A 6-year-old does not need to know how to do your taxes, for example.

Meg Wheeler (23:28):

Oh, come on now. No, I’m just kidding.

Kevin Gaines (23:30):

Other than Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory. Yes, 6-year-olds-

Meg Wheeler (23:34):

If I could get my 8-year-old to do tax returns, that would be great. It does come up a lot. And I will say, so our community is predominantly folks. We have a lot of like first-generation Americans, even second-generation — we have a lot of folks who have not come from families of privilege or wealth.

Meg Wheeler (23:52):

And so, the next generation is a very big topic in our community. Not all of our folks have kids, but even for the ones that don’t, they’re thinking about nieces and nephews. They’re thinking about other people in their community and wanting that next generation to be better off.

Meg Wheeler (24:08):

So, this comes up a lot. And I think the most important takeaway is what I said before, which is about just destigmatizing talking about money. So, from birth, anytime my son would ask, what does something cost? Or any kind of money-related question, we answered it. We didn’t say, “You can’t ask that,” or “We don’t talk about that here.”

Meg Wheeler (24:40):

We wanted to make it clear that these are good questions to ask. Now, sometimes we might be in a situation where we might frame it a little bit differently if we’re in public or who we’re around or whatnot. But again, we’re teaching them it’s okay and good to ask these questions.

Meg Wheeler (24:44):

And so, when I think when you’re thinking about, “Well, does my 6-year-old need to know how to do taxes?” No, but as your kids are out there in the world being curious about things, it’s encouraging that curiosity to extend to money.

Meg Wheeler (24:57):

And I also think it’s getting them comfortable with money. So, probably from the age of, gosh, I don’t know, 4, anytime – my son loves to do craft projects, so we go to Michael’s a lot. So, anytime we’d go to Michael’s, I’d give him $10, and I’d say, “You can spend this on anything you want.”

Meg Wheeler (25:14):

And this kid would spend an hour in there, and he’d be doing the math, he’d pick something up, “No, put it back so I can get that.” It’s that kind of exercise that a lot of us never did. Sometimes if we were given money for the candy store, I always think about that, but I don’t think often enough.

Meg Wheeler (25:34):

He’s 8, we’ve now graduated to he has a bank account with a debit card. We use Greenlight, which is a great app for anyone who has kids. And he goes to the store, and he pays with this debit card, and he checks his bank balance before he does that. It’s making money a thing we do, not this big heavy burden.

 

Stephanie McCullough (25:53):

I love that. And I think you do have a focus on helping folks figure out how to build that generational wealth, right? You have a few pillars of that? Talk to us about that.

Meg Wheeler (26:05):

We do, and we say “generational wealth,” but we recognize that that term, for a lot of folks who have never had access to generational wealth, that term actually can be very restrictive. They feel as though that’s not something I’m ever going to have. So, we like to call it impactful wealth.

Meg Wheeler (26:20):

Because the idea is that it’s impacting both you, your family, your community, and future generations, even if, again, they’re not your children. And so, when we think about impactful wealth or generational wealth, we think about the different pillars, as you mentioned, and we group them into three buckets.

Meg Wheeler (26:36):

So, the first is to set up. Having good, strong financial foundations. This is the boring stuff like bank accounts and cash flow and budgets, although we don’t call them budgets, we call them money plans in our community. But just having structures in place to really manage your money.

Meg Wheeler (26:54):

The second bucket of areas we focus on is stabilizing. This is really having a good strategy around debt, whether you’re going to use it or not, whether you have it or not, around planning for the worst. This is where we get into emergency savings and backup plans and estates. Planning and things like that.

Meg Wheeler (27:14):

Disaster planning, especially with all of the climate crises in the world, just understanding how that may affect you financially. And then the last bucket is growing. So, this is where we focus on making more money, making it in a way that is tax advantage certainly, but also that is healthy for you.

Meg Wheeler (27:35):

We’re not fans of the hustle-till-you-die culture. We recognize that your compensation package in anything you do isn’t just the dollars. It’s time, it’s resources, it’s energy. And so, looking at that, it’s where we look at retirement investing.

Meg Wheeler (27:50):

Investing in “less traditional ways,” looking at businesses and real estate and things like that. But that setup, stabilize, grow, is really how we take people through the wealth-building process.

Stephanie McCullough (28:00):

And that kind of makes it feel less intimidating too. Like, “Oh, there’s these steps I can do, and each step is progress.”

Meg Wheeler (28:07):

And even within those buckets, we break it down much more. And what we tell all of our folks is, every quarter we want you to pick just one thing within one of those buckets to focus on. Because this is a journey.

Meg Wheeler (28:18):

It’s building, wealth building. We’re not doing it on (again, ultra-marathoner) day one. This is a process, and every step you take gets you closer to where you want to be. So, every step you take is a win.

Stephanie McCullough (28:30):

Even that like emergency fund idea, “Oh, I can’t get to six months of my expenses.” Okay, but having $100 is better than not having $100, right?

Meg Wheeler (28:40):

Yeah. I remember the first time we’d finally started emergency savings. I think we had been doing it for maybe a year or two, and we had something come up, I can’t remember what, and I had to use a decent chunk of the money, most of the money.

Meg Wheeler (28:51):

And I remember actually feeling so much shame and failure, like, “Oh, I have to drain my emergency savings.” And then I had a moment, and I thought, “Wait a second, this is exactly what this is here for.” This is exactly what I prepared.

Meg Wheeler (29:03):

I was so proud of myself at that point. It just completely switched. And I thought, “This is why I did this. So that I don’t have to put it on a credit card.” And that moment is beautiful.

Kevin Gaines (29:14):

True confession from a brilliant financial advisor (that’s me). I know I should not have shame dipping into emergency savings. I do have shame dipping into emergency savings even today. It’s like, “Is it really that big of an emergency?” Yeah, it is. But emotionally, it’s like I just have trouble doing it.

Meg Wheeler (29:40):

I just sold some of my investments and my taxable brokerage to pay for some stuff, and I had a lot of shame around that. And I thought, “Oof, like, I failed.” And I thought, “Wait a second …” Again, same thing. I was like, “Why did I earn all this money if I can’t use it to help out this other area of my financial health?” So, yeah, we’re very normal. This is very normal.

Stephanie McCullough (30:00):

Kevin and I talk about this all the time. We have clients who get to retirement, and then they have such a hard time actually spending their retirement accounts: “Wait, you mean it’s going to go down?”

Stephanie McCullough (30:11):

I’m like, “Well, you made it. Like, here you are. This is what you saved it for.” But all those decades of trying to build it up, and then it’s really difficult to switch gears and think that it’s okay to draw down. It’s all psychology.

Meg Wheeler (30:27):

Well, it is psychology, and I think this goes back to that scarcity mindset, which we encounter a lot in our community. And we work a lot with business owners too, so there’s a lot of this feeling of like, they’ve gone through a slump, and so there hasn’t been much coming in.

Meg Wheeler (30:41):

And I think probably I see this a little bit more with folks who have an inconsistent income, but I always tell folks, “You can always make more money.” Look at what people are doing on YouTube if you don’t believe me that you can make money for anything.

Meg Wheeler (30:53):

My son watches people build with Legos, and they’re making money. So, you can make money doing anything. And I think just reframing that can help spending that money because it’s not a limited resource in that sense.

Meg Wheeler (31:10):

And by spending that money, by taking that money out of retirement, you’re enriching your life. Which is actually just, to me, filling up the jar, not dwindling it. So, I think that’s just a really important thing to remember.

Stephanie McCullough (31:22):

Yeah. I like that way of putting it. And you’re probably helping others along the way too. Whether it’s creating something for your people or helping a business owner that you’re paying for a service or a thing, so spreading it all around.

Stephanie McCullough (31:39):

Meg, you do work with a lot of business owners. I’m sure we have listeners who own a business or want to own a business. Can you give us just a couple of tips on business owner money?

Meg Wheeler (31:50):

Yeah, sure. And the first thing I’ll say before I give those tips is I think a lot of people think of like employees or business owners, and it’s two completely separate buckets and never a shell that you meet. But again, in this day and age, more and more, there are opportunities for folks to do a little bit of both.

Meg Wheeler (32:08):

I’m seeing more and more people come to us who have full-time W2 jobs but are also doing – I hate when they use these terms, but they call it “side hustle,” or “I’m freelancing,” or “I’m a contractor.” And I’m like, “That means you have a business.”

Meg Wheeler (32:23):

The number one thing in our workshop at the very beginning is, let’s talk about what it means to have a business. If you’re doing work and getting paid and you’re not an employee, you have a business.

Stephanie McCullough (32:32):

There you go, I like it.

Meg Wheeler (32:33):

So, I actually think probably more people have businesses than they realize, and I think that’s the first piece. The second piece is especially as you’re going into retirement, business income can be a great way to bring income in and keep you engaged and involved in things you’re passionate about.

Stephanie McCullough (32:51):

Have purpose.

Meg Wheeler (32:52):

And especially for our folks who don’t want to draw down their retirement accounts, can keep those getting filled up. So, I want to put that reframe there. But in terms of tips, the number one biggest thing (and you touched on this at the beginning) that we see with our business-owner folks is avoidance.

Meg Wheeler (33:08):

They don’t know how to do the money stuff in their business. They’re super busy. They’re wearing 17 hats, and this is such a low priority, it feels like a low priority. And so, I think if you can get over that hurdle, it’s so critical. And we work with our folks to do that.

Meg Wheeler (33:24):

I say you can deal with your money stuff in 20 minutes a week. You don’t need to spend that much time. Every single week in our community, we have money club where we all meet, and we ask questions and talk about our money.

Meg Wheeler (33:35):

You can do this on your own, you can do it with your friends, great way to talk about money. But it’s just setting aside some time to just even start getting comfortable with the numbers in your business.

Meg Wheeler (33:43):

You don’t need to make any advanced reports or analyses or anything like that. Just open up your bank account, start looking at your numbers, start noticing things, put your childhood curiosity hat on, and start asking some questions. I think that’s the biggest one.

Meg Wheeler (34:00):

And then the second tip (kind of along those lines) is to have those really good foundations in place. So, bank account, an accounting system, ideally something to track your cash flow and your sales coming in, and your money going out.

Meg Wheeler (34:13):

And again, you don’t have to have those all on day one, build them over time. But those are going to give you access to the information you need to make better decisions in your business. I can’t tell you the number of folks I’ve either worked with or talked to who have 7-figure revenue businesses, and they have no systems in place.

Meg Wheeler (34:42):

They’re constantly missing payroll, they’re maybe intermittently paying themselves. And it’s not because the money’s not there, it’s just because they don’t have the systems in place to manage the business and make good decisions.

Stephanie McCullough (34:44):

Yeah, systems are key. And it’s not necessarily my strength either as a business owner myself. That’s something I – it’s a journey.

Meg Wheeler (34:51):

Absolutely. It is a journey.

Kevin Gaines (34:53):

Again, another true confession from a brilliant financial advisor. I’m glad we just said this because you just reminded me, I actually got to do my payroll when we get done with this interview.

Meg Wheeler (35:03):

You’re welcome.

Kevin Gaines (35:04):

So, my system apparently is interviewing guests for the podcast to remind me to do the crap I’m supposed to be doing.

Meg Wheeler (35:12):

I’m happy to oblige.

Stephanie McCullough (35:14):

Meg, thank you so much for being with us. This is great information. How can people find you and learn more about what you’re doing?

Meg Wheeler (35:21):

So, you can find us at equitablemoneyproject.com. We’ve got a podcast as well, Disrupt Your Money. We’re over on YouTube with lots of walkthroughs and things to help you set up those business systems. And of course, we’re on Instagram as Equitable Money Project as well.

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (35:34):

Fabulous. We will put all those links in the show notes.

Meg Wheeler (35:37):

Thank you so much for having me.

Kevin Gaines (35:39):

Thank you.

Stephanie McCullough (35:39):

It was great fun. Thank you.

Kevin Gaines (35:44):

Alright, Stephanie, I suspect I know what you’re going to say your biggest takeaway is, but I’m not going to steal your thunder.

Stephanie McCullough (35:52):

Oh, dear. Now, I feel pressure. What if I guess wrong?

Kevin Gaines (35:55):

Yeah, then we’ll fake it and I’ll pretend that that’s what I was going to guess. It’s like the old saying says, “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull.”

Stephanie McCullough (365:04):

Your specialty.

Kevin Gaines (36:07):

Yes, it is. Anyway, what I liked what she said was when she first starts talking with somebody, she doesn’t have a long list of questions. Just start talking about it.

 

Stephanie McCullough (36:18):

Yeah, tell me your story.

Kevin Gaines (36:19):

And I like that because that way you’re not getting rigid, you’re not making any – I don’t want to say prejudgments – but some positions. Is that the right word? Anyway, where you’re just saying, “Well, this is the way the conversation’s going to go.”

Kevin Gaines (36:31):

Everybody is different. Everybody has different fears and hangups and everything like that. Just talking about it is what’s going to get all of these conversations started. And in our experience, it just naturally flows to where the concerns are and what needs to be addressed.

Stephanie McCullough (36:48):

Well, everyone has a unique path to how they got where they are today. And a lot of those experiences are going to inform both maybe the system that’s going to work for them, but also with the kind of barriers that they might have, whether logistical or mindset barriers, to addressing this stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (37:10):

She talked about the avoidance and the discomfort a lot of people have with money. And these are things that you and I have talked about before. Families don’t talk about money, schools don’t teach us about money, not okay to talk about it with your friends. So, how the frick are we supposed to learn about it?

Kevin Gaines (37:24):

There’s a reason we keep doing these episodes, because this is pretty flipping important.

Stephanie McCullough (37:29):

Yeah, totally. And I love her point about creating the safe space to talk about money with other people, learning to talk about money, getting comfortable doing it, and to do it in a way that doesn’t add to the shame that you might feel. To the emotional barriers to having the conversation.

Stephanie McCullough (37:48):

It’s not enough to grit your teeth and talk about money with your spouse once, you probably should keep doing it. You don’t have to get it all solved in one point. That was the other part I liked about what she was saying. The incremental changes, getting those systems into place, having the daily things you do, and just maybe thinking about making smarter choices. I like to parallel it to health.

Stephanie McCullough (38:10):

You’re not going to go from … I knew a woman who said “Couch to ultramarathon.” No. You’re going to take those incremental steps first to get there. You don’t have to all of a sudden become a money whiz.

Kevin Gaines (38:22):

Just being less bad on some things is going to allow you to have – it’s not even necessarily improvements. Well, obviously, it is, but also, it just lets you hopefully feel a little less stress, a little less overwhelmed by stuff that you can say, “I’m doing these little things,” and it doesn’t get nearly as overwhelming.

Stephanie McCullough (38:47):

Well, and we’re going to try not to use the judgmental words like “bad.”

Kevin Gaines (38:51):

I know. But the cliché had a nice little ring to it. So, you know me, I love a good cliché.

Stephanie McCullough (39:00):

This is true. I like her point that this stuff is hard. We’re not saying it’s easy, it is hard, and it’s okay for it to feel uncomfortable. So much of growth in life comes from walking through the uncomfortable bits.

Stephanie McCullough (39:14):

And this money stuff, money mastery (perhaps we can say), that’s certainly one of them. There are going to be times you’re uncomfortable. And if you could do it with supportive people, people who aren’t going to pile on further judgment, that’s definitely better. And I think doing it together is easier than doing it alone.

Kevin Gaines (39:33):

Yeah. No, I definitely think the community part helps for a variety of reasons. And also, the idea of if this stuff was easy and everybody was doing it, more people would be out there bragging about it. Talking about it. You don’t see people talking about this stuff. And there’s frankly, probably a reason.

Stephanie McCullough (39:54):

That’s true, that’s true. Well, many people are hiding their own hangups and worries and shame around money stuff. Well, we enjoyed our conversation with Meg, we hope you did too. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (40:08):

And it’s goodbye from her.

 

 

[Music playing]

Stephanie McCullough (40:11):

Be sure to subscribe to the show, and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (40:25):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.