Wendy Wright (00:00):

I can kind of create some little vignettes of some of the common themes. In fact, this one is so common that it gets to be one of my principles, is this belief, hardcore belief that they are bad with money. I’m going to use air quote “bad with money.”

Wendy Wright (00:15):

And my principle is there is not good or bad with money. And often, a lot of people are like, “That’s not true, I’m bad with money, so what are you talking about, Wendy,” kind of thing. Because often, if a woman thinks she’s bad with money, there are people in her life she identifies as “good with money.”

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:43):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:18):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (2:06):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:16):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:18):

So, today, we are talking to my friend Wendy Wright. Wendy is a leading financial therapist and money mentor. She’s got a background, as you’ll hear, as a licensed therapist and a money coach and a business owner. She excels in merging psychological insights with financial expertise.

Stephanie McCullough (02:35):

Her pioneering work in the field of financial therapy has transformed lives by addressing the emotional aspects of financial decision-making. Today, Wendy’s going to share her insights and how to achieve our harmonious relationship with money and navigate the complexities of financial wellbeing. Let’s welcome Wendy Wright.

Stephanie McCullough (02:56):

Wendy Wright, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Wendy Wright (02:58):

Thanks, Stephanie. I’m excited to be here. I love just how you’re talking to this audience, especially of women and helping empower them with money. It’s fantastic.

Stephanie McCullough (03:07):

Yes. And you know when you and I met and started talking, we realized we’re like copacetic on this topic and believe a lot of the same things.

Stephanie McCullough (03:16):

Before we dive into that though, could you, as a financial therapist yourself, give us a quick definition – where does financial therapy fall on the spectrum between therapy and like financial planning?

Wendy Wright (03:31):

Yeah, fantastic question. So, there is a little bit of a spectrum here like uh of different things. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I am also a trained money coach. I also uniquely have a business background, business undergrad, ran businesses, flipped houses, was a mortgage loan officer.

Wendy Wright (03:50):

So, there’s a part of me, I say that because there were parts of me that were already comfortable and attuned to asking money questions, and a lot of therapists (and I’m not badmouthing them because they tell me this), they don’t want to talk about money. Often, they’ll send me their clients for a little bit of money work and diving into that.

Wendy Wright (04:08):

But for me, it was a very natural shift once I began to notice trends and patterns with people with their money decision-making. So, one of the ways that I describe it is that financial therapy is going to be that intersection of money and emotions.

Wendy Wright (04:24):

And so, it’s like if you have ever cried about money, if you’ve ever lost sleep over money, if you’ve ever avoided looking at your money, if that’s a fear, if you’ve ever had either had a fight about money or avoided a conversation, because it might be a fight about money like– all of those things, financial therapy is a great place to come into where we’re going to sit, we’re going to pause, we’re going to breathe, we’re going to look at what are the emotions coming up and what are they telling us?

Wendy Wright (04:55):

And then, yeah the financial part of it is the … and then how can you.. what are strategies, what are ways to engage with the money stuff? Now, I’m also a money coach, so that means that I’m going to then uniquely take some coaching things, tips and tricks and things and say, “Why don’t we try this?” Like, For instance, I might say, ‘Why don’t we start putting $10 a week in your savings account?”

Wendy Wright (05:23):

Now, that is a coaching tool of like here’s the strategy. The therapy part’s going to be, “Hey, what did that feel like? If you didn’t do it, what did it feel like? If you did it, what did it feel like?” Because it doesn’t matter at that point, the dollar amount, it’s more of the emotional journey.

Wendy Wright (05:38):

Whereas a financial planner, is going to come in and have a little more plan-first probably focus, wouldn’t you say? Tell me if you feel like this is wrong-

Stephanie McCullough (05:49):

Usually.

Wendy Wright (05:50):

But plan first. There may be products and fees that are associated with the plan. And I think also, it’s really empowering your financial planner feels comfortable explaining their fee structure to you, that’s a great energy check, of like how is this working? So, that’s helpful to know. And then they’re going to look at strategies, they’re going to talk to you about that stuff.

Wendy Wright (06:12):

Whereas in financial therapy sessions, I often actually help my clients role play a meeting with their financial planner because those meetings are … like we are meeting weekly or every other week for months. A financial planner is going to have less frequency and more data-driven in those moments.

Wendy Wright (06:33):

So, knowing, for instance, one of the things that I encourage my clients to do, because I’m working with people with shame and anxiety and fear, and “I don’t want to appear stupid, I don’t know what to ask.” And so, as a financial planner, you may recognize that’s when their eyes start to glaze over or they start to check … they’re checking their phone and you’re like, “What’s going on? We’re having this conversation” and kind of stuff that I help them come into, okay, what are key questions?

Wendy Wright (07:04):

I break it down to two or three, let’s start with two or three. Let’s like really break it down. Then they know to ask and then they can come back for another visit or maybe then they feel free to ask another question, but we break it down so it feels approachable.

Kevin Gaines (07:18):

It sounds like as you’re describing to people, for lack of a better phrase, the symptoms of why they might need to work with a financial therapist – it sounds like everybody could work with a financial therapist. I mean, honestly, even you rattle off those issues, I’ve had a few of those issues.

Wendy Wright (07:42):

Me too, me too. Absolutely, yeah. So, I think that’s super helpful to recognize and to break down the shame, Kevin, of like, hey, this is approachable, anyone could do this. Especially if you want more improvement, more satisfaction in your relationship with money, more sustainable practices, to me, that is a big core of healing money stories is finding sustainable practices, not magical ones.

Wendy Wright (08:10):

And I talk about that often. In my experience as a financial therapist, I’ve also trained other therapists to be financial therapists, and I’ve worked, I’ve talked a lot about what the heck is it? And so, I have created 10 principles of financial therapy, and we can pull a few of those today that may be helpful.

Wendy Wright (08:26):

But one of them is just that nothing is really going to work for you if it’s not sustainable. And that’s more important than pretty or perfect or popular, any of that kind of stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (08:38):

Yeah. Ooh, I like that. So, the one thing that really kind of stood out to me in your explanation was the avoidance, because I see this all the time. I will meet women in their fifties, sixties, and they kind of get this look on their face like, “Oh, I know I should be paying attention to this stuff, but whatever.” It just feels more comfortable maybe to push it off till next week, next month, next year.

Wendy Wright (09:06):

Heck, yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (09:07):

What in your mind is at the heart of this of avoidance?

Wendy Wright (09:11):

Such a great question. To know what is at the core of our avoidance is so powerful. Now, one of the first principle of financial therapy that I always say has to come first and the rest of them, we work into wherever we are, but it is to approach it with abundant, compassionate curiosity and zero judgment.

Stephanie McCullough (09:29):

Ooh, yeah.

Wendy Wright (09:30):

So, we want to come sit beside the avoidance and say, “Hey, what’s up?” Because it can be different things for different people. But often, it’s fear-based, there’s a fear. Often, it is a mindset-based, especially if the word “should” pops up, that is a key to me that there’s some shame involved, so that I should be something that I’m not, which means that if I’m not that, I can’t approach it. And it really blocks, it really shuts you down.

Wendy Wright (09:58):

So, we want to look for that too, and we want to be able to see, or perhaps, it is task-overwhelm. And again, that’s part of why if it feels like … money often feels like this black hole that if I log into this one account, I’m going to be here for three days and never get away from my money stuff.

Stephanie McCullough (10:18):

That’s true.

Wendy Wright (10:20):

And so, being able to say, “No, let’s do one or two things,” and then they’re able to do that. And so, that can be a part of the avoidance as well. So, getting to know the avoidance is super powerful.

Stephanie McCullough (10:34):

Yeah. Could you share obviously anonymously a story or two about women you’ve worked with that have been experiencing this shame?

Wendy Wright (10:44):

Oh gosh, yes. Well, yeah, I can kind of create some little vignettes of some of the common themes because one of them is. In fact, this one is so common that it gets to be one of my principles, is this belief, hardcore belief that they are bad with money. I’m going to use air quotes, “bad with money.”

Wendy Wright (11:04):

And my principle is there is not good or bad with money. And often, a lot of people are like, “That’s not true, I’m bad with money, so what are you talking about, Wendy,” kind of thing. Because it’s where often, if a woman thinks she’s bad with money, there are people in her life she identifies as “good with money,” and this is all based on maybe four data points of their life that are exposed.

Stephanie McCullough (11:31):

True.

Wendy Wright (11:32):

So, it’s really helpful to begin to unpack that and if you’re not good or bad with it. So, that’s a very common one because when you come in feeling/strongly believing you’re bad with money, that leads to certain behaviors, decision-making. So, that means you don’t log in. Why log in? “I sure already screwed it up. Why should I log in and check? Why would I ever track my money? Why would I ever get to know my numbers?”

Wendy Wright (11:59):

This is a big one: “Why would I ask for more income to come into my life?” That’s either asking for a raise or if starting a business, it’s common for women (I work with a lot of women entrepreneurs) – it’s common for them to convince themselves that it’s normal and natural not to get a paycheck for years from their business.

Wendy Wright (12:18):

And so, when we begin to unpack that, it is often connected to, “Well, I’m bad with money, why would I put it in my account,” you know that kind of thing. So, as we shift that – one of my key shifts to the belief that you’re bad with money and if I believe I’m bad, and Stephanie’s good, we’ve got this whole thing going – is to instead shift it to, “I don’t like that I do this, I wish I was doing more of this. I think it’s cool if Stephanie’s doing that, I would like to do that.”

Wendy Wright (12:55):

So, we’re we’re really  taking away sort of that polarizing energy of bad and good and looking at, oh no, there’s actually like 5,000 things in between that can show up, and that tends to seem to really help them push through that.

Stephanie McCullough (13:10):

I love that. Getting specific about like, “Oh, it’s this behavior I think she does that I would like to do more of” because of course, you could do more of that. Ooh, I like that.

Kevin Gaines (13:22):

Wendy, when you’re working with your clients, how often do you see a lot of their expectations are shaped by stuff they’ve read, seen, heard? Not necessarily observed, “Oh, my next-door neighbor or my parents” or something like that.

Kevin Gaines (13:40):

But frankly, all the bullshit that we find out, all the clickbait blog posts and things along those lines that create these false expectations of if you’re not doing it this way, you’re screwed. How does that play into people’s expectations?

Wendy Wright (14:02):

Yeah, it can play a big role. If we feel unsettled in an area such as money, and we also feel like we can’t trust ourselves. So, why look within? Which is one of, kind part of my sort of why statement, is that I want to create a space for women to trust their intuition.

Wendy Wright (14:24):

When I do, I call it soft planning or intuitive planning, we start with a pencil and a piece of paper and we sketch stuff, but we want to tie into that. But when we don’t feel that, when we feel like we are the last person that we would ask for money advice, then we will ask anyone. And what happens?

Wendy Wright (14:43):

Because I also have a marketing background too, so I’ll often share with a client, “Here’s how an algorithm works. Here’s why you want to believe it and why it feels like they just spoke to you. Because there’s a lot of data and research that’s gone into how to hook somebody. It’s just a big part of it.

Stephanie McCullough (15:05):

Oh yeah, the marketers know all the psychology, right?

Wendy Wright (15:08):

Absolutely. They are basing their strategy on behavioral psychology, financial behavioral psychology, but their goal is to sell you something, not support you and build you up. So, it’s helpful to look at that.

Wendy Wright (15:25):

So, what we might do, sometimes we might do a little bit of an inventory and maybe jot down for a week, what are the top 10 messages you’re getting about money? And let’s say for instance, one of the things … if a client’s feeling really bad about the fact that they have debt (this is very common), and it’s not just feeling bad, it’s feeling shame.

Wendy Wright (15:47):

So, “I am bad because I have debt,” and this is very much what I help them begin to unpack and look at because we want to shift that to, “I’m not bad, I just don’t love that I have the debt.” So, kind of going back to that.

Wendy Wright (16:04):

But when that is the case, then they look for evidence to support that belief that they’re bad because they have debt, and they find it. And also, once you click on one thing, you’re going to get 10 more. So, it’s helpful and important to look at that, and also, why it’s super important and powerful. And what I am always saying is don’t rush to pay off debt. That’s not a strategy, that’s a panic.

Wendy Wright (16:31):

My principle is we want to learn to stay out of debt before you get out of debt, and that’s really powerful and also terrifying for my clients. They struggle so hard with that, but when we start to really work with that, it makes some of the hugest differences in their life.

Stephanie McCullough (16:50):

That’s really fascinating,

Wendy Wright (16:53):

I think Kevin, you were saying the phrase you’re hearing from the client is, “If I could just get out from under the burden of this debt,” and I would shift that sentence to let’s get out from under the emotional burden of the debt. Once we shift the emotional relationship, the role debt is playing in their money story, then we can really begin to look at … because what’s happening with debt, it is a series of repeated decision patterns often.

Wendy Wright (17:26):

So, as we begin to look at what those are and what drives the … essentially, it’s a belief that debt is an acceptable payment method for whatever that thing was. So, when we begin to look at that, then with that abundant compassionate curiosity and zero judgment, then that underlying pattern can begin to shift, absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (17:49):

Yeah. I have often talked to people, and I don’t have formal financial therapy training, but about the patterns because I think that holds so much information. I have in the past been on periods of my life where I’m trying not to spend money on anything, but the necessities.

Stephanie McCullough (18:11):

And my pattern would be Sunday night when the kids have exhausted (but this is when they were younger, I’m an empty nester now) me all weekend, I’m at my wits end and I’m thinking, “Oh, I got to go to work early tomorrow morning” and I maybe have a glass of wine and I’m scrolling, and then my resistance to the algorithms and to the temptation is way down, click, click, click. I’ve now spent $75 I hadn’t planned on spending. That was one of my patterns, noticing when I was most vulnerable to those messages.

Wendy Wright (18:41):

Yeah, that’s really powerful, and that’s really lovely of you to share that because I’m sure a lot of people can relate to that moment.

Stephanie McCullough (18:49):

One of my friends had a good strategy. She had a separate email address for whenever she would shop so that she would get the marketing messages from the vendors to the retailers, not to her regular email that she checks all day long, but to another one that she doesn’t check so often. I like that idea.

Wendy Wright (19:08)

It helps increase more intentionality about what information you’re consuming if you separate it out and kind of organize it a little bit.

Stephanie McCullough (19:18):

Yeah, I like the term intentionality. I think that’s a big helping approach to take with some of these issues, right?

Wendy Wright (19:27):

Yeah. It’s a big part of the foundational shifting that I will talk to people about. Words like intentionality, intuitiveness, mindfulness, caring, compassion – all of those kind of words are words that we want to bring into the money dynamic, and they often are not present there at all, because we’re making a lot of money decisions based on time of day, where we are, who’s looking, who’s going to see, or sometimes, it’s an emotional expression that we’re not connected to.

Wendy Wright (20:05):

I’ve had people before who are shopping a lot and I will say, “Let’s talk about what you’re shopping for.” And maybe they’re shopping for throws for their couch, and they’re looking at super fuzzy warm throws for the couch, but they actually already have 22 throws on the couch already. So, then I’m like, “Okay, well what might be coming up that’s got you seeking really longing for soothing,” and it’s very disconnected. So, we’re working toward it being connected.

Wendy Wright (20:32):

And they might see, “Oh, I’m about to go do this presentation, I’m really nervous about it.” And then we begin to see that. So, then we get to come in with what is truly comforting when you’re feeling that fear. And we shift that a little bit. That’s where the journaling that I have set up has this actual baseline practice of breath, intension, and then movement.

Stephanie McCullough (20:56):

Say that again, more slowly.

Wendy Wright (20:57):

Breath, intention, and then movement. So, the breath part, it’s you know obviously, it’s a pause. It’s allowing us to just pause the speeding locomotive. The intention part though is really powerful because we might intend to – let’s say we intend to get out of debt, that’s a fine intention, or we intend to save $10,000. But then the movement is where we break it down to an actionable step kind of with that something that feels really concrete you can do in a short amount of time.

Wendy Wright (21:29):

So, maybe that is, I will move $10 to savings this week. So, we’ll break it down because we know the intention, but if we think the intention is the goal, you can’t really save $10,000 overnight, most of us can’t. And so, then we feel like, oh, I’m bad with money, I can’t do this. Look at me, I failed that. So, breaking that down is the foundational piece of the journaling exercise, is what I offer.

Stephanie McCullough (21:54):

I like that. So, I heard Sarah Newcomb, who is a behavioral finance person talk about kind of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and how she doesn’t really believe in (I’m probably putting words in her mouth) – but what I took away was she doesn’t really believe in needs versus wants. Everything is actually trying to satisfy some type of need.

Stephanie McCullough (22:16):

And to your point about the throws for the couch, right, there’s actually a need behind that impulse to spend, but maybe the spending isn’t the actual best way to meet that need. It’s just that the marketers are everywhere and it’s easy to buy things. So, we’re told that that’s the way. What do you think about that idea, about the different needs?

Wendy Wright (22:36):

Yeah, I do. I like the structure of Maslow’s hierarchy. So, the bottom part is that safety security zone. And I often will have people really recognize that that is the food, clothing, shelter, transportation part of their life. And then moving up to more and more sort of specialized, personalized uses of money. But at first, we’ve got to meet those baseline needs, or we won’t feel stable enough to move up it.

Wendy Wright (23:07):

Needs and wants, those two words I find to be really problematic for most of my clients because there is a history and a story with them. And so, as we begin to really shift into … I will say, “What do you want your money story to be? Or what story do you want your money to tell” is actually one of my favorite prompts as we begin to look at that.

Wendy Wright (23:37):

And for me, personally, I use words like basics or survival numbers or foundational numbers, and that’s very connected to that bottom layer of Maslow’s. And then I move into maintenance because often, maintenance of our lives is one of the things that we overlook the fastest: “I’m going to buy the car, this is the car payment. Oh, there’s maintenance.”

Wendy Wright (24:02):

And I mean, personally, I still just can’t stand to do maintenance on my car. It’s not my fun thing, but I know it’s going to happen. So, beginning to look at that, and then also look at the word for me, and I work with my clients and what word works for them, is then there’s a level of nurture.

Wendy Wright (24:17):

So, I want is this money being spent to nurture me? And I find that the more clear we are about what’s happening with the money, the more meaningful the transaction is. Instead of like, oh, I’m just doing it because I have to, or whatever. If we are able to say, oh no, if you want that other throw and it fits in your plan and you get it and you feel nurtured, okay, no judgment.

Wendy Wright (24:46):

If what you really want is a hug from your friend, then we want to not use the throw as a shortcut or a bypass of the real nurture or however it is. So, that’s one of my favorite coaching tools is helping people identify the words that work for them.

Stephanie McCullough (25:02):

I like that.

Kevin Gaines (25:03):

I want to go back, you just said, “What works for them.” Before we get into the journal, which I want to spend even more time talking about, but we come across … again, going online, and I don’t mean to bash the internet or anything, because there’s a lot of good information out there, but what I’ve discovered for myself at least is sometimes you read stuff, and yeah, that’s a really great idea, but then you realize it doesn’t work for you.

Kevin Gaines (25:32):

So, saving $10,000, yeah, that’s great, but how do I get there? Or yeah, it’s a really great idea to skip going to Starbucks every day, but I like coffee. So, how do you work with people to understand it’s what works for you specifically, not what supposedly works for everybody.

Stephanie McCullough (25:59):

Right, or what some talking head person says.

Wendy Wright (26:01):

Right. Yeah, that is super powerful. So, once we come into first identifying what they should or what they think they should be doing, and maybe we’ll write those down, then we’re going to find different words for each one of those things.

Wendy Wright (26:18):

So, classic example would be, “Oh, you shouldn’t go to Starbucks or whatever.” Who cares? If you want coffee, do coffee. But if it works with your plan. So, one of my other principles is instead of living out of your bank balance for decision-making, we want to shift to living out of a plan, but the plan is only as good as the adjustment process. That’s what we’re talking about here, is how do we make adjustments? And that’s usually where it gets sticky.

Wendy Wright (26:42):

So, if they think, “Oh, if I just don’t do this or if I just do this kind of thing, that will make the difference.” And then sometimes, we try that for a few weeks, and this is the beauty of financial therapy meeting regularly, and we look at this, it’s not quick work, it’s deep work.

Wendy Wright (26:59):

So, then we look at something and we try it, and we think that’s the problem when actually, maybe they’re just responding to shame. Maybe they just cut out something in their life because they felt so ashamed of themselves because a lot of people said, “You shouldn’t do that.” That’s not a sustainable thing. What you’ll end up doing is you’ll still get it, you’ll just hide the coffee cup. Just picking on that one because that one gets a lot of buzz and a lot of hate.

Wendy Wright (27:25):

So, when we’re doing something out of shame, it’s usually not sustainable. So, we want to find something that is sustainable, and that’s where finding what works for you is really powerful. And where the financial therapy approach that I have helps you begin to find what works for you that can work for months and months and months and months.

Stephanie McCullough (27:47):

You’ve mentioned a couple times some journaling prompts that you’ve got, and I know you’ve got a journal out there. Tell us why journaling as a strategy on this stuff is so powerful.

Wendy Wright (27:58):

Oh yeah, thanks Stephanie. I love that question. Journaling is so powerful first and foremost because it initiates a pause. So, often, money is so scary, and if you’re scared, you move into often some sort of fight, flight or freeze, right? So, when you don’t know this is happening, especially if it’s all hung under the “I’m bad with money,” you think you’re just bad with money.

Wendy Wright (28:25):

So, when we start to pause and answering any kind of journaling prompt – and I love that you’re asking this question too, because a lot of people listening right now may have never actually journaled, but they may feel like they should be journaling, yes.

Wendy Wright (28:29):

So, I think it’s really helpful to understand why the heck would you because don’t do it if it’s not going to do any good for you. But, So, it initiates a pause, which allows your brain to take a breath, and kind of pause there and think about, oh, okay, instead of doing the automatic thing, what if there are other options? And that’s a big thing.

Wendy Wright (29:00):

So, we want to open up the other options. And so, if we’re journaling about what story do you want your money to tell (that’s a prompt that I love to use), then what that gives you is it doesn’t tell one story. It can tell a lot of different things, and that’s where also maybe you want it to show others that you care for them, and maybe that’s not always handing them money.

Wendy Wright (29:26):

So, maybe you’re wanting your money to show you care for others, what are three or four other ways your money decision-making can express care? So, we begin to unpack that so we can pull out of anything that feels really stuck and boxed in.

Stephanie McCullough (29:41):

And I think some of the stuck and boxed in, at least in my experience myself and talking to clients, it kind of comes from messages we got either from family members or from the world at large, or from someone early in our lives that kind of remains there unexamined.

Wendy Wright (29:58):

Exactly, and this shows up in my experience, I’ve been a therapist for 25 years. I’ve been doing financial therapy for 10 of those. So, this shows up in a lot of areas of our life, but especially money tends to kind of be siloed, and when couples say, “We don’t fight about anything but money,” that doesn’t mean they’re fighting about money. That means they’ve shifted all the fighting into that silo or, “Money is my biggest stressor.”

Wendy Wright (30:24):

It’s really not, but that’s where it’s all been siloed. And so, when we get to pause and look at that, and decide where did this come from? Does it work for me and what do I want it to look like in the future? That’s what rewriting your money story is. It’s cheesy therapy words for me to say, “Let’s rewrite your money story, but that’s what we really mean.”

Wendy Wright (30:45):

We want to look back for context (not to hang blind, but for context) to see, okay, where did this come from? And then is it working for me? And if not, what would you like it to look like next?

Stephanie McCullough (30:58):

Love that.

Kevin Gaines (31:00):

I think that’s a really good observation because I think every financial advisor or investment manager, we’ve all seen it, but we don’t know that we’ve seen it because we all have these clients that say, “Well, what’s your goal?” “I want to make money or I’m judging everything based off how much money I have.”

Kevin Gaines (31:21):

But that’s really not the goal. The goal is to do something with the money. I see this, and I know Stephanie does as well – people lose sight that money is just a mechanism, is a tool to get you where you want to go. It’s not the end all to be all, or at least for 99% of the people. Is that a conversation that you find yourself having a lot of times?

Wendy Wright (31:44):

Yeah, when we think about what is the function of the money, and look at that it is a tool, that’s really empowering, because then they can begin to say, “Okay, here’s what I want it to do, here’s what I want it to look like.” For instance, I’ve worked with people who feel like I just need to make more money. That is a very open-ended and kind of a recipe for consistent, persistent, hypervigilant anxiety because there’s not an enoughness to it.

Wendy Wright (32:18):

And if the purpose of it – because often, the purpose of that is … usually our purposes are very valid. Maybe that’s comfort, maybe that’s security. Maybe mom and dad always fought about money because they were always saying, “There’s not enough, we can’t afford that. These were the messages growing up.”

Wendy Wright (32:39):

So, the opposite of that is, I’ll have enough. Well, what is enough? Well, it’s always a little bit more, right. So, that creates this perpetual, “I am never quite there, I’m never quite there, I’m never quite there.” That is very unsatisfying.

Wendy Wright (32:50):

And that also, just to even kind of dive into that a little deeper is then when you shift into retirement, AKA, the work optional life, AKA, the whatever, however you want to call this – I’m living off of what I’ve earned kind of life, when you shift there, that identity shift is so huge. And if you’re not aware that this is what’s happening, it’s so unsettling that you go back to work six months later because you have to make money.

Wendy Wright (33:19):

So, it’s really powerful to pause, look at what is the purpose of this? Again, the breath, intention, and movement would be to take those breaths. The intention is to, “I want to make more money,” and the action is, “I want to also then be present with my family, so I’m going to spend five minutes having eye contact with someone.”

Wendy Wright (33:42):

There’s ways in which then we begin to say, “What do you want that money to bring you?” “I want it to bring me the ability to run around in the backyard with the kids.” Okay, so let’s do that and see how it feels to have the money or whatever it is. We just begin to look at that.

Stephanie McCullough (33:58):

So, if listeners are hearing this conversation and thinking, “Oh, this is kind of a rich area that I could start to explore,” what would be one action that you would suggest they’d take to kind of dip their toe into this area?

Wendy Wright (34:15):

Yeah, Stephanie, I think one of the places I would encourage people to start is start by stopping, by pausing, and taking just two or three breaths of connecting with, “Okay, do I feel ready to dive into this? Do I feel ready and open to a shift with money?” Often the answer is going to be yes, okay.

Wendy Wright (34:38):

And then what would that look like? Well, I don’t want to lose sleep over money. Okay, well, that’s an intention, a big goal. So, the action step would be to maybe have a mantra of some sort of, “I may not understand what I want for money, but I know I can figure it out.” So, we’ve just increased their sense of agency with the goal of helping them sleep better. So, there’s ways in which they can start with that.

Wendy Wright (35:04):

So, on my website, there’s a quiz that helps you identify your money shadow, and that often can help you identify, “Oh, okay, here’s coming up.” There are three ways that you’ll get an answer there; either the avoider, the wounded child, or the saboteur, and then that will take you through some journal prompts as well and some free journaling prompts. And then there’s a paid journal as well. So, each of those places are a great place to start.

Stephanie McCullough (35:28):

Awesome, and how do people find these resources?

Wendy Wright (35:32):

My website is wendywrightfinancialtherapy.com. So, they go there, they’ll see it right at the top of the page. They’ll see the ability to either take the quiz or dive into the journaling.

Stephanie McCullough (35:42):

Awesome.

Kevin Gaines (35:44):

Wendy, you just said money shadow, what is that?

Wendy Wright (35:49):

Yeah, it’s kind of the expression of what is that unseen motivator or story that’s getting there. If you find yourself … because I hear this a lot: “I keep doing the same thing with money, and I didn’t mean to, or I don’t understand why I keep repeating this.”

Wendy Wright (36:10):

Shadow is a way of looking at … because it’s kind of there, and if you think of a shadow, it’s an extension of you in some ways, but it’s also there maybe kind of whispering to you a little bit, helping you either consistently avoid or consistently sabotage, get in your own way, so to speak. When you begin to see, “Oh, that’s where this pattern’s coming from,” then you can begin to make a shift from it. But does that sort of give it an explanation, Kevin, that makes sense to you?

Kevin Gaines (36:42):

Yes, yes. Thank you very much.

Stephanie McCullough (36:45):

Wendy, thank you so much for being with us and we appreciate hearing your take on this, and I think it’s just really valuable to hear that we all have money issues, and it’s okay to kind of dive in, take a little time to explore them. Thank you.

Wendy Wright (37:00):

Yeah, you’re welcome.

Kevin Gaines (37:00):

Thank you.

Wendy Wright (37:01):

Thanks for having me, yeah.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (37:06):

Stephanie, we keep getting these financial therapists and money coaches on, and I want to say there’s a very good reason. It’s because, I mean, this is some of the core things we all can work on and get better at. And I’m talking about you and me. I’m not even talking about our listeners.

Stephanie McCullough (37:29):

All humans, we got emotional baggage around money.

Kevin Gaines (37:32):

We started off the conversation about if you’ve gone through these emotions, maybe you want to talk to a therapist, and of the six or seven she rattled off, I know at least three of them applied to me.

Stephanie McCullough (37:47):

Oh, yeah, for sure. I liked that she talked about kind of the prerequisite, the mindset that we should all try to bring to this is abundant, compassionate curiosity and zero judgment, which means zero self-judgment. Like, yes, we all struggle with this stuff, yes, we all have issues with it, and let’s try to set aside that judgment and just be curious and compassionate with ourselves. I really love how she put that.

Kevin Gaines (38:15):

The other phrase she threw out there that I enjoyed was start by stopping. Just take an extra breath. And again, not saying to stop you from doing something, but just to think through why you’re doing it. That’s the whole purpose of the journaling, to understand why you’re doing it.

Kevin Gaines (38:36):

Maybe you really just want to buy another blanket, but maybe there is something else to it. A little bit of self-reflection isn’t going to prevent you from getting happy. A little bit of self-reflection isn’t going to make you less happy. It’s actually going to probably allow you to enjoy it more because you know why you’re doing it, and you can embrace that moment.

Stephanie McCullough (39:06):

She was talking about getting clear on your intention. I really liked that. And then the other maybe hot take, maybe controversial statement was that there’s no such thing as being good at money or being bad at money. Oh, that was a little mic drop moment to me.

Stephanie McCullough (39:20):

Let’s just even take that out of the vocabulary, it does not exist. Let’s get a little bit more specific about what we’re talking about and say, “Oh, I’m feeling uncomfortable that I did these things, or I really wish I could do more of those things.” That’s much more useful.

Kevin Gaines (39:37):

Well, I mean in this conversation, good and bad is a matter of perspective. I mean, we talk about not trying to keep up with the Joneses. Well, just because somebody else has an attitude about how you should spend money or how you should save, doesn’t mean that’s how you should be spending or saving. You’re going to do what’s going to work for you, but understanding why you’re doing it, that’s going to help you get clear.

Stephanie McCullough (40:08):

Well, we’ll definitely link Wendy’s website in the show notes. Definitely check it out. She’s got some great free resources there, and her money journal is at a low price point too, if that’s something of interest. Thanks so much for being with us, we’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (40:24):

And it’s goodbye from her.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (40:27):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (40:42):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.