Stephanie McCullough (00:06):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (00:30):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep expertise in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (00:54):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial, an American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (01:05):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (01:07):

Today we have a guest, Stacey Stern. Stacey is fascinating because she’s been doing coaching for 18 years and even a little bit longer, as you’ll hear, when kind of coaching didn’t really have a name and she was calling it consulting.

Stephanie McCullough (01:22):

But Stacey and I recently reconnected at a women’s conference, we’d known each other years ago, and she has such an interesting approach to working with clients, kind of in this phase of life that a lot of our clients find themselves in of wondering, I’ve been doing this thing for a long time. What’s next? What else is possible? What else could I create in my life that might be more satisfying, fulfilling, exciting, less stressful, monotonous, whatever, fill in your own adjectives.

Stephanie McCullough (01:59):

You’ll notice we’ve had several coaches on as guests, but I feel like they have such wisdom to bring in the questions they ask. They don’t necessarily bring all the answers, but it’s the intriguing questions that they prompt us to ask of ourselves that can help give us clarity and help make us better decisions.

Stephanie McCullough (02:20):

So, here is our conversation with Stacey. Stacey Stern, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Stacey Stern (02:31):

I am so happy to be here with you guys.

Stephanie McCullough (02:33):

Awesome. It’s great to have you. So, let’s start out by, why don’t you tell us how you came to be doing the work you’re doing in the world?

Stacey Stern (02:41):

Yes. It has always been important to me to do work that I feel is aligned with my values, and that feels really meaningful for me. And coming out of college, the most obvious path that occurred to me was the nonprofit world. So, I went to work for nonprofits doing social and environmental work that really resonated with me.

Stacey Stern (03:05):

But on the side, just for fun, I was constantly drawn to personal and professional and spiritual development in all forms. I read, I took classes, workshops, programs. And out of the corner of my eye, I took note as life coaching was being born (we’re talking 25 plus years ago), as a profession.

Stacey Stern (03:29):

And to be honest, it was kind of intriguing, but I didn’t really know what it meant. It didn’t feel that real or solid or even like a real profession. It was just too early to know where it was going.

Stacey Stern (03:42):

So, 18 years ago when I launched my own practice, I called it Stacey Stern Consulting and focused primarily on the consulting side of things. It’s where I had more experience and it felt more substantive, quite frankly. I knew what I could do, I knew what my deliverables would be, and I worked with small to mid-size businesses.

Stacey Stern (04:01):

And I increasingly got requests to work one-on-one with the senior leadership or the founders or the owners of the company. So, I read up on how to do that, and essentially, I was doing some self-training on executive coaching, and I loved it.

Stacey Stern (04:18):

And by then the field had grown, the schooling had grown, and I eventually took the leap. I went back to school for coaching, and I got multiple certifications. I’m a Professional Certified Coach and Certified Life and Leadership Coach. And I continue to absolutely be amazed by the space, to grow in this space and to be inspired by my clients every day.

Stephanie McCullough (04:41):

That’s awesome. Well, lots of people have heard me tell the story that when I first started in this industry as my career change, I was a little bit lost and thought I can’t do this work. And I sat next to someone at a Chamber of Commerce event who called themselves a coach, and I was like, “What? What do you mean?” It was like the late 90s.

Stephanie McCullough (04:57):

“You coach volleyball or something. What are you talking about?” He’s like, “Just do a free session.” And by the end I’m like, “Oh, I need to work with you. Help me, please.” So, I have always valued the coaching approach for sure.

Stacey Stern (05:09):

I appreciate your story. I didn’t actually know that. I should add that I also availed myself of coaching. I’m a huge believer in it. And it served me so well, which also is what helped inform me. And I got clear on how I could help others in the space.

Kevin Gaines (05:26):

So, given that you’ve worked with businesses, you’ve worked with executives, who are you working with today and what do you like to focus on?

Stacey Stern (05:37):

Yeah, I work with a wide range of people, people who are looking for more in their life. And it could be more meaning, it could be more impact, fulfillment, joy, peace of mind. It really depends on the person. And on the flip side of the coin, these folks often want less of other things like stress and fear. So, we tackle it all.

Stephanie McCullough (06:02):

So Stacey, you and I ran into each other at a women’s conference a few months ago at our beloved alma mater. And we just got so excited talking to each other because there felt like there was so much kind of overlap in the kind of conversations we have with people and the issues that our clients are facing. I think, if I remember correctly, that you often deal with people who are kind of facing big transitions and wondering what’s next for them. Is that right?

Stacey Stern (06:31):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think people don’t even think about coaching typically unless there’s something going on. Either there’s a problem, a situation or a life transition.

Stacey Stern (06:43):

And so, it could be as major of a life transition as a career change, divorce, retirement, or a major health scare. But other people come because they just have a niggling sensation that things could be better in life. I mean, on the surface, they don’t want to make major changes in the structure or function of their life, but they feel like things could be easier, more fun, and they want to proactively take a dive and see what they see.

Stephanie McCullough (07:14):

Some of the tools that you talked about seem very interesting and different than I’ve heard. What do you mean when you talk about energetic resources?

Stacey Stern (07:23):

Well, when a lot of people think about energy, they’ll think in terms of how much energy do you have, as in physical energy and are you feeling high energy or low energy?

Stacey Stern (07:35):

But I also look at the quality of the energy. And so, if you have, let’s take an example with money. Let’s say you’re nervous about money and you’re not excited to meet with your financial planner and you’re sitting in your financial planner’s office, and you have tons of energy. You’ve got tons of adrenaline and cortisol coursing through your body, that energy is going to want to propel you out the door and to run away.

Stacey Stern (08:04):

And that’s not the kind of open, relaxed, receptive energy that you’d like to have when you’re sitting down, taking a look at your money. I know you guys are so nonjudgmental in the approach, but this person might be judging themselves and have a lot of fear. And that’s because our physical bodies are very connected, of course, to our minds and our emotions.

Stacey Stern (08:28):

So, our mental energy is driven by our thoughts. Our emotional energy is driven by our feelings. Our spiritual energy is driven by our beliefs and our values.

Stacey Stern (08:40):

So, I work with my clients at really getting clear and identifying that whole picture of who they are so that they’re bringing the energy that they want in whatever setting that they’re showing up for.

Kevin Gaines (08:54):

So, just for the record, none of my clients ever have anxiety when they come to have a meeting. Just-

Stacey Stern (09:01):

I believe that, Retirement Geek

Kevin Gaines (09:03):

Just want to say that.

Stephanie McCullough (09:05):

I don’t believe it.

Kevin Gaines (09:07):

Neither do I, but sounded good, didn’t it?

Kevin Gaines (09:11):

So, you were just talking about stress. Now, I know another phrase you use is money stress, is that as obvious as it sounds or is there a lot more to it?

Stacey Stern (09:24):

Well, money stress is a biggie. It’s ubiquitous. I mean, I wonder if you see what I see, which is that a lot of people stress about money in different ways and for different reasons, regardless of how much money they have or don’t have. Is that something you commonly see?

Kevin Gaines (09:41):

Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (09:42):

Totally.

Kevin Gaines (09:43):

Absolutely.

Stacey Stern (09:44):

And I want to clarify, of course. Yeah, I’m not referring here to folks who are in a legitimate financial crisis, who are struggling to put a roof over their heads or clothe themselves or feed themselves. That’s major and serious and perhaps a different conversation.

Stephanie McCullough (10:02):

Right.

Stacey Stern (10:02):

The kind of money stress I’m talking about here is more the mental or emotional, at its roots. It stems from the thoughts and beliefs and the feelings we have about money.

Stacey Stern (10:13):

And so, when I’m working with clients, we take a look at their money story, their money stories, and all of the thoughts and beliefs they may have about money. And as you probably see often, they can be contradictory or complex, and sometimes stand in the way.

Stacey Stern (10:32):

So, an example I can give of this was of a couple who owned a massage business, and they were both really experienced, talented masseuses. They trained under absolute fantastic teachers. They had a beautiful office. They ran it really professionally, and they were extremely generous with their time with each client.

Stacey Stern (10:55):

As you might imagine, they were both working a lot, and yet they weren’t earning the profit they needed for a sustainable business. And that’s when they sought my help.

Stacey Stern (11:07):

And I actually do a blend of coaching and business consulting. Some people come to me more because they’re having some issues with their business, in any way, it all ends up fitting together.

Stacey Stern (11:19):

And in their case, we started looking at what they both felt and thought about money, going back to their earliest beliefs. And it was interesting because they were raised with very different backgrounds, different financial means, very different stories were told in their families. And yet for the woman, one voice came through so clear to her as we were talking, and it was her grandfather saying, “Money is the root of all evil.”

Stacey Stern (11:50):

It took her by surprise actually, because she said that’s not a phrase she even consciously thinks about. And she remembered as we dug into it how true it felt on certain levels to her as a child and how much it shaped her. And at first, she dismissed it intellectually now, she’s like, “I don’t believe that at all anymore.”

Stacey Stern (12:11):

And so, we actually went a little further and we looked at both of their views on any of the negative sides of money. Is money evil? Are people that are really wealthy, evil? What strings of truth from that really stark statement are there? And they both unearthed some negative feelings about money that really surprised them, and that became clear were standing in their way of having a profitable business.

Stephanie McCullough (12:38):

Yeah.

Stacey Stern (12:39):

So, I challenged them to turn that phrase on its head in a way that actually felt true to them as adults and aligned with their values. And they came up with a beautiful phrase that I love. And what they came up with was, “The more money that flows through us, the more good we can do in the world.”

Stephanie McCullough (13:02):

Hallelujah.

Stacey Stern (13:03):

I get chills, quite frankly, when I say it now.

Stephanie McCullough (13:05):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (13:05):

There you go.

Stephanie McCullough (13:05):

I love it.

Stacey Stern (13:06):

And they both felt it. And yet that realization is the first step because then we could get back to the practical work of making structural changes in their business, to create a much more profitable and enjoyable enterprise where they felt they were serving their clients deeply and doing it in a sustainable way.

Stephanie McCullough (13:29):

I love that. And it’s so often I think that we are driven by these unconscious ideas and beliefs we’ve picked up throughout life that as you pointed out in that story, like we don’t really realize, or when we speak it out loud, like, “That’s ridiculous. I don’t intellectually believe that, but some part of me believes that.”

Stacey Stern (13:49):

Or believes a piece of it.

Stephanie McCullough (13:53):

Right. And it’s enough to kind of throw off the behavior.

Kevin Gaines (13:58):

Yeah, no, what really resonates me is it sounded like there was a shift from them viewing money as an object, whether it was evil or an objective or something like that, to becoming, which is something Stephanie and I try to speak to a lot. Money’s just a tool to get you wherever you want to get. And it sounds like that was a shift that they made in their work with you.

Stacey Stern (14:27):

I think that’s a great observation, Kevin. Yeah, I agree that money is a tool. I also look at money as energy. As it flows, do we resist the flow? Do we actively pursue the flow in a panic?

Stacey Stern (14:41):

There’s so many ways to look at it, but I think you’re right. In our society, money isn’t just an object, as you said Kevin, but it also can take on personality. It can become something that is so huge, this huge ambiguous entity, this power in and of itself. And I think that that is something that many of us feel at some point and some time, and it’s just bringing it back to what is it that we’re talking about here.

Stephanie McCullough (15:13):

Yeah, yeah. And how can you shift it, like you said. And you weren’t necessarily having them do a wholesale, erase all of their history and do something else, but find a way to rework their own mantra, the things they were telling themselves about money and what it could do.

Stacey Stern (15:34):

Absolutely. And it just opened the past for creativity with their business, with their life. And they’re living just a much more abundant, joyful life now, quite frankly, personally and professionally.

Stephanie McCullough (15:48):

I’m doing a webinar soon for women on money and one of the points we’re talking about is looking at how much you make. And one of my theses is that it’s not selfish to look at how much you make and to try to increase it, which I think goes against especially what a lot of women have learned in their lives.

Stephanie McCullough (16:09):

Oh, you got to be taking care of others all the time. Can’t be selfish. Worry about your clients, worry about your patients or whomever, your customers — if they can’t afford it. But putting yourself into financial jeopardy isn’t doing anyone any favors either.

Stacey Stern (16:25):

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. And what’s also interesting is when I first thought you were going to talk about the tie people have with how much they make in their self-worth.

Stephanie McCullough (16:36):

Yeah.

Stacey Stern (16:37):

Which is another biggie. But the direction you took it absolutely came out of that story as well in that yes women, but other people in the caring giving professions, men and women, whether it’s social work, whether it’s massage or teachers, a lot of people, particularly when they’re in private practice, and I work with a lot of solopreneurs and entrepreneurs and business owners where they really get to choose their rates. They really get to choose how they’re doing it.

Stacey Stern (17:09):

And they often sometimes do feel by charging less, they’re serving their clients more, they’re being more giving, but it’s not necessarily the case.

Stephanie McCullough (17:20):

And that can be a hard kind of thing to get your head around sometimes.

Stacey Stern (17:26):

Absolutely.

Kevin Gaines (17:26):

Well, Stephanie, I know in the webinar series that you do, that’s actually one of your major topics is making sure you bill for yourself what you’re really worth, not what you think is generous to other people. Because I know you’ve had that conversation many times.

Stephanie McCullough (17:45):

Yeah, I’ve got a few clients in the helping professions too, who … and then they’ll look, one woman’s very experienced and there was a kind of a newer therapist who set himself up down the street a couple years out of school charging more than she did. I’m like, “Okay, what is this telling you?” You’ve got the experience and the expertise, and you bring so much more to the table, you can charge more.

Stacey Stern (18:11):

It’s fascinating. Well, the male and female gender differentials historically in payment for the same job is an issue that we have yet to resolve as a nation, much less when folks are even doing it for themselves. That’s crazy. You think when you’re doing it for yourselves, you can write these inequities, but it’s so ingrained in us.

Stephanie McCullough (18:34):

Yeah. Do you see people have other kind of, whether it’s limiting beliefs or early thing, messages they picked up in childhood, getting in their way in other facets of life?

Stacey Stern (18:45):

Every single day, for every one of us, which makes my work so interesting. Knowing who we really, truly are and what we really, truly want is where it all begins. And that changes.

Stacey Stern (19:03):

And as Kevin said before, we have unconscious beliefs. They’re unconscious, we don’t know what they’re. And so, I jumpstart my work with every client by using a really powerful tool called the Energy Leadership Index assessment, or ELI for short.

Stacey Stern (19:24):

And the ELI sheds light on how we see the world. It sheds light on our beliefs about the world and ourselves. And that’s really cool. I’ve probably taken every assessment out there, just for fun, that was my passion. And I’ve gained some value from everyone I’ve taken.

Stacey Stern (19:49):

But most assessments measure our strengths and our weaknesses or give us a label or a type and then help guide us with how to work with what we have.

Stacey Stern (20:01):

What’s fundamentally different about the ELI, it’s not telling us what type we are or what our strengths and weaknesses are. It’s telling us what our perceptions are, how we see the world. And that is fundamentally something we can change if it’s not working for us or in the places that it’s not working for us. So, that’s how I begin with every client. And it gives such a juicy starting point for coaching.

Stephanie McCullough (20:33):

Are people surprised at the results?

Stacey Stern (20:35):

It’s a great question. Sometimes they are. I’ll add one other piece about it. It has two components. It tells us how we view the world on a typical day when things are going well. And it also shows how we view the world when we’re under stress.

Stacey Stern (20:56):

And for most of us, we have one way, one particular set of lenses, we look at life when things are going well, maybe our own version of rose-colored glasses. It’s just our own perceptions. But all of us default to a different set of lenses when we’re under stress.

Stacey Stern (21:16):

And this shows the differences. And then it gives us a great starting point for that unique person’s experience of stress and how to manage stress.

Stacey Stern (21:28):

Yes, I think people are often surprised on one component or the other, but they’re often very encouraged by just how much can be shifted and changed.

Kevin Gaines (21:40):

So, Stacey, you’ve talked about how you work with all different people, but I’m going to be selfish and talk about a particular group that I work with a great deal, people entering retirement. It’s that transition from the work to whatever, and sometimes they know what the whatever’s going to be.

Kevin Gaines (22:05):

And sometimes they don’t, either because they were forced to retire, or they just mentally said, “I’m done, I’m going about my life.” And then realized, “I don’t know where I’m going to go from here.” How do you work with people like that? I mean, when they come to you, what type of questions do they have? Do they realize that’s what they’re trying to figure out? Or is it sometimes just saying, “I just feel this empty void and help me.”

Stacey Stern (22:32):

I love that question. I get it on both sides. But a story’s coming to mind of a woman who came to me in retirement in her 60s who had recently retired after a long profitable career in corporate America.

Stacey Stern (22:49):

She had worked with a financial planner. She retired in the traditional sense in that she didn’t have to make any more money for the rest of her life, and she could do whatever she wanted. And she knew exactly what she wanted to do. And that was to write a book.

Stacey Stern (23:06):

And for her, she’d been looking forward to this for years. She’d been telling everyone, “After I retire, I’m going to write my book.” And actually, that’s why she was referred to me. I’ve written books and I’ve coached authors and wanna-be authors about their book. So, she was referred to me actually to work with her on her book, her retirement project. Well, we got going and she was gung-ho after all, she waited for years to be able to do this. And she ran with it and was truly enjoying it.

Stacey Stern (23:35):

And then she started to stall on the book. She started to drag her feet and realized writing a book is a lot of work, and it’s actually not what she thought she wanted to do anymore. Yet she’d come to her sessions really jazzed about the (and I’m saying), “little other thing” she was doing, the organization, she was learning about, the hobbies she was starting to pick up. And she was always minimizing them because the book was her big project.

Stacey Stern (24:08):

And you may also see this with people that are entering retirement, particularly if they had a lifelong career or they derived a lot of identity from their jobs. They’re looking for a big needy purpose. And this woman’s purpose was her book. So, it was really scary for her to take a look at the fact that what if that’s not my purpose anymore. I have my retirement purpose.

Stacey Stern (24:31):

So, we shifted from kind of coaching her as an author to that broader coaching of what did she really want to do now? And the truth was she wanted to dabble in all of the things that were lighting her up. And it was just that work of letting go and putting to rest that project that no longer excited her that allowed her to embrace a very full, varied retirement. So, sometimes what you really want might not be what you really want after all.

Kevin Gaines (25:04):

Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the scariest things is yeah, what do I do once I get or realize this isn’t what I thought it was. I frequently use the reference of you approach retirement, it’s like, I’m going to golf. You can’t golf every day. Or even if you try, you’re going to get bored.

Stacey Stern (25:23):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (25:23):

So, it’s like a bigger question.

Stacey Stern (25:26):

Yeah, I think it is the question. I mean, purpose is a really big word. I think a question can even be contribution. It’s what are your values? How do you want to show up? What do you want to enjoy? And that example I gave you was someone who was already in retirement who thought they had exactly what they wanted to do. But I also of course work with folks who are looking ahead to retirement in the same way that folks come to you and they’re planning for retirement.

Stacey Stern (25:55):

And someone that’s coming to mind now is someone who just turned 50. He is the president of a company. It’s been his whole professional life. He’s been building it and growing it and he’s derived a lot of joy from it. It supported his family and many, many employees’ families. And we’re taking a two-pronged approach to this.

Stacey Stern (26:18):

One is planning on the business consulting side, planning his slow succession on, how does he want to set his business up to pass it along and to whom and how? Is he going to sell it? To whom? He’s getting his business house in order and hiring the right people. So, that’s kind of a pure kind of executive coaching business consulting side on that, what’s his legacy going to be in the professional life?

Stacey Stern (26:49):

We also have separate sessions on what do you want to imagine on the personal side for what your retirement might look like. Knowing you may feel very differently when you get there, but just to fuel that or honor that flame of getting that creative juices flowing for what may lie ahead for him when the big business has moved on and it is no longer his day-to-day. And he’s taking a really proactive approach to that. And that’s fantastic.

Kevin Gaines (27:25):

Wow, that’s … so, follow up. Which is the more challenging conversation for him because I would suspect that it’s that he always knew he was going to have to deal with succession planning. And maybe even before he came to you, he may have had like a nugget in his head of how he thought that might look. But I can imagine that he’s actually kind of surprised on the other side of the conversation.

Stacey Stern (27:50):

It’s interesting, I’d actually put it more into the big category of prioritization, meaning we could agree upfront we were going to address both things, but when you are in the meat of your business, it’s always I’ll do that retirement conversation later. I’ll do that later. This is in front of me.

Stacey Stern (28:11):

And so, that’s, I think the beauty too of engaging, whether it’s a coach or an accountability partner or a friend in thinking about your retirement is it’s easy to put the later off, even the fun later conversation off when you’re putting out fires in the day-to-day.

Stacey Stern (28:26):

But having somebody else that works with you on it that says, “Wait a minute, we’re going to carve out this and when do we want to carve out this to really explore this?” Kind of keeps that from just slipping away till he rushes into retirement and says, “Oh yeah, I never did think about it.”

Kevin Gaines (28:45):

Well, that actually makes a lot of sense. I mean, it almost seems like it’s human nature that you focus on the here and now and the later, no matter what it is. It’s further out, whatever further may be.

Stephanie McCullough (29:00):

So Stacey, you had mentioned this tool that you use with folks before and I’m curious to learn more about it. What is an energy audit?

Stacey Stern (29:07):

An energy audit is a fun, simple exercise that can yield surprising results. Anyone can do it. You start with a piece of paper, you draw a line down the middle, at the top of the left side, you write the header Energy Drivers, and you brainstorm all of those things that really juice you up, that you get excited thinking about, and that leave you more energized when you do them. At the top of the right side of the page, you write Energy Drainers, and you list all the things that you dread or put off or that deplete you.

Stacey Stern (29:45):

And here’s an example of a recent cool discovery from an energy audit. I was working with the president of a company who learned something very surprising about herself, and it was on the energy drainer side of things. She discovered that far and away her most significant drainer, the thing that was really sucking life out of her was her inclination to overthink things, to ruminate, to mentally rehash conversations and situations long past the point of being useful.

Stacey Stern (30:22):

And it shocked her because in doing this exercise, she realized that never before had she seen or even counted how much time and energy, she was wasting by doing this. But to take it a step further, her inclination to overthink and dwell was such a familiar part of herself and had been with her for as long as she could remember that at first, she didn’t even recognize it as a habit, as in something that could be changed. So, once we had this information along with (and this is key), her determination to rid herself of this habit, we had some great coaching work that followed. And now she is thrilled.

Stacey Stern (31:10):

And I was surprised in another way that once we shone the light on this, and once she got some real good strategies about shifting her thinking how easy it’s actually been for her to shed this lifelong pattern. She reports back all the time, “Something came up last week that would’ve sucked 12 hours out of the next few days, and it’s nothing for me now, it rolls right off my back.” And so, it is a game changer and has freed up so much more energy and capacity for her personally and professionally.

Stephanie McCullough (31:48):

Well, and I imagine her stress levels. Because if you’re ruminating and thinking and rehashing, that feeds kind of anxiety and worry and self-doubt, at least in my mind.

Stacey Stern (31:59):

Absolutely. And it leads to that when I talked earlier about the quality of energy. Do we have calm, clear energy where we’re in a present, creative problem-solving mode or do we have really constricted anxious energy?

Stacey Stern (32:15):

And she’s not alone in this, in that she is a very successful leader. So, nobody from the outside would’ve realized how much she was in knots in the inside because by external measurements, she’s hitting all the bars.

Stacey Stern (32:30):

And I think that’s what can be so rich and deep about coaching. It’s not just about our performance and the external measures, but it’s our internal experience of our life as we’re having it. And no doubt. And in fact, it’s already coming to be that the external performance in her business is elevating as well.

Stephanie McCullough (32:53):

Well, I think a lot of people might be surprised that that’s changeable. You feel like that’s just something that I do. That’s my inclination. I’ve always been that way. And to realize that maybe it can be changed might be a revelation.

Kevin Gaines (33:06):

Just a quick question on these self-assessments. How long do they take or how long should they take? I mean when you sit here and you’re doing your audit, is it just something that whatever comes to your mind on both sides of the ledger for 5, 10 minutes? Or is this something that maybe you should take a day or two to kind of think through and what is the word, introspect yourself?

Stacey Stern (33:29):

Absolutely.

Kevin Gaines (33:30):

Probably didn’t use that word correctly, but anything with more than three syllables, Stephanie knows I have trouble with.

Stacey Stern (33:36):

I think you got it, Kevin. Great question. As with anything, there’s no one right or wrong way to do it. With the energy audit, you can do it alone or you can do it with somebody else where you’re talking it out loud and engaging with it. But I think the key is just to get started. You can do it and list your drivers and you can just see what comes to mind. Like what charges me up. A lot of people will think of their activities or their tasks, the things they like to do.

Stacey Stern (34:08):

But then I might suggest they also think about other categories like relationships, what relationships really energize me or habits or mindsets. I mean you can be as creative as you want, but I encourage you to expand it beyond just sort of my to-do list, what do I like and what do I don’t like?

Stacey Stern (34:27):

And so, that’s on the energy driver side as your first pass. I look at it as be free form, put as much out there. And actually, to your point, Kevin, yes, I treat it and I encourage my clients to treat it as a living document. You’re going to want to refer back to it just to come up with it. You’ll get some insights in the moment, but it doesn’t do much if you don’t do anything with it.

Stacey Stern (34:51):

You might guess that with energy drivers or especially there’s some people that can’t come up with a lot that’s exciting them, if they’re in a rough spot in life. It might be searching back to what you have enjoyed. It might be adding things in the column. Part of it’s the visual also of seeing how many drivers you have versus drainers.

Stacey Stern (35:12):

Then on the drainer side, I have another tip as well and there’s a way that this can really apply to money, and I’d be curious how you might see how this could serve your clients. Once I have folks list their drainers, we take a look at them and there’s three questions we ask about each one, can I delegate it, delete it, or dilute it? And it’s taking a creative pro approach to each one.

Stacey Stern (35:46):

The first thing that comes up to my mind when I’m thinking about money is (and I know where I delegate), I don’t do my own taxes. I have an accountant. People with their businesses may hire bookkeepers. There’s practical ways that you can delegate tasks that really have to happen. I might also back up and say with finances, seeing a financial counselor would be really, really key, if you don’t want to try to figure everything out yourself and it’s not your space or you need that kind of…

Kevin Gaines (36:16):

Stacey, I think that’s the most brilliant thing you’ve said this entire interview. I can’t imagine why I would think that, but I do.

Stacey Stern (36:26):

Well, thank you and thank you for what you guys do. I’m curious from your perspective, because people can delegate and come to you, what might you say to clients on the dilute or delete in terms of financial tasks? Dilute meaning, being able to do less of it or spend less time or sometimes delete would be something that people are doing that is just busy work doesn’t even have to happen.

Stephanie McCullough (36:52):

I got a big one on the delete side. And there’s so much out there in the world that can have an impact on our finances and our well-being. Like what the stock market’s doing, what the economy’s doing, what the politicians are doing. But we have no control over it.

Stephanie McCullough (37:11):

So, I would delete paying much attention to that at all. Delete reading every article and worrying about every little thing. I had a conversation a bunch of years ago with a friend. She was stressing over the news so much. I was like, “Why do you watch it? Just stop watching it. It’s bad for your mental health. You can’t do anything about it. Like, are you really preparing for every little thing that might come down the road? I don’t think so.” So, that’s what I would delete.

Kevin Gaines (37:40):

Yeah. Stephanie, I actually am total in agreement with you that I think that’s probably one of the biggest hurdles people face is the headlines. Whether it’s the stock report or the top of the news cycle or whatever. And I frequently like to use the analogy from Men in Black. At one point Will Smith is going off panicking about the incoming alien invasion and Tommy Lee Jones says to him, “There’s always another invasion coming. There’s always something else. We just got to keep our stuff together.” Paraphrasing the whole spiel.

Kevin Gaines (38:22):

But that’s something really important that we do try to talk with clients is there’s always some sort of scary headline on the news or there’s always something in your life that if you dwell on it, yes it can completely paralyze you. But let’s try to think through how big of a deal is it? How much of an impact could it have? And sometimes it could have a big impact, but other times, yeah, this too shall pass.

Stacey Stern (38:51):

Yeah. I mean I imagine a lot in financial planning, you’re dealing with both the practical nature of the stock market, the economics, and I love outsourcing that, staying on top of that to my financial planners. I don’t want to pay attention to it. It’s comforting to me because it’s practical to know what’s going on, that someone else is doing that for me.

Stacey Stern (39:13):

But you’re also talking about the emotional side. It is a rollercoaster. It can be an emotional rollercoaster if we watch the stock market go up and down and interpret that in our hearts as our survival might go up and down. Our lives are going to go up and down. And I imagine you say to your clients, you help them separate their personal reality from the craziness of the world. Reality checks all the time.

Kevin Gaines (39:42):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (39:43):

Yeah. I had an email from my client just the other day and she said, “Am I going to lose all my retirement savings? Can you worry about this for me?” I was like, “Yep, that’s what you pay me for. I’m going to worry about this for you.” So, she’s delegating the worrying.

Stacey Stern (39:56):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (39:57):

That’s a great request.

Stephanie McCullough (39:58):

Yep, for sure. And when you talked about dilute, what I thought of is my latest habit is when I have to wash the dishes and clean the kitchen, I’ll listen to an audio book, like a fun mystery or something kind of fluffy, that kind of dilutes it for me. I’ll scrub the whole counter if I have a new interesting chapter to listen to. So, that’s a dilution for me.

Stacey Stern (40:21):

That’s a great tip. I do that one too.

Stephanie McCullough (40:23):

So Stacey, one of the things I think you and I bonded around when we first talked about our work together was that we were both focusing on helping our clients make wise decisions about their lives. And for us, kind of how the money supports the life. What would be your definition of a wise decision?

Stacey Stern (40:45):

One that honors yourself. And to go back to it, to really honor yourself, you got to know yourself, to know who you are and what your values are and know that yourself is not one set entity or one personality set in stone.

Stacey Stern (41:00):

We’re growing dynamic beings, and so to regularly be cultivating our own self-awareness and involve others, friends and families and counselors and others in our life so that we know who we are and then we can get really clear with what we want and what we value. And take action from there.

Stephanie McCullough (41:19):

Yeah. I love that. That’s so right on. And it parallels what we tell people too. A wise decision about your money is one which is in alignment with your core values, what you most want in the world, what you’re trying to create.

Stacey Stern (41:32):

Another piece of alignment that I know you and I talked about, which is both of our personal approaches and philosophies is non-judgmental. And including working with our clients to be non-judgmental of themselves.

Stacey Stern (41:48):

So, to go back to a wise decision. It’s also a loving decision. It’s a non-judgmental decision because the more we’re judging ourselves, the less we’re really accessing what we truly want sometimes, and we’re just constricting our world instead of having a really open, creative approach to what we want and to then step into it fully.

Stephanie McCullough (42:08):

Love that. So Stacey, where can people find you and learn more about the work that you’re doing in this world?

Stacey Stern (42:17):

Well, people can find me at my website at staceystern.com, and there’s an E in Stacey. And also on my website, I offer the ELI assessment as a standalone experience for folks who want to reap the benefits and the insight without necessarily wanting to do coaching as well. And that’s there under the assessment tab on my website.

Stephanie McCullough (42:41):

Oh, super. Sounds very intriguing. Well, thanks so much for your time today, Stacey. We really enjoyed the conversation.

Stacey Stern (42:51):

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it as well.

Kevin Gaines (42:55):

Appreciate it.

Stacey Stern (42:56):

I appreciate you both.

Kevin Gaines (42:58):

All right. As I normally say at the end of all these interviews, well there was a lot to unpack there. So, let’s get to unpacking.

Stephanie McCullough (43:06):

One of the things that I really appreciate about Stacey’s approach is that she acknowledges right up front, hey, these things are going to change. And what drives us, what gives us excitement and energy, as she said in her energy audit, that stuff will change over time too. And that’s okay. We should expect it.

Stephanie McCullough (43:25):

It’s very hard for us as human beings to anticipate what will make us happy and content and fulfilled in 5, 10, 15, 20 years. We don’t really know, but we can make the best decisions with the information we have right now. And I like how, especially that energy audit maybe gives us new information and new ways of looking at things that we hadn’t before.

Stephanie McCullough (43:53):

And her point about going beyond just the tasks, what are the things that kind of drain your energy? Not just the tasks, but maybe the emotional and mental load you have to carry, the things that you worry about, the things that preoccupy your brain space and are there ways to then deal with that? Can you delegate? Can you delete? Can you dilute? Can you reframe how you think about things? It’s all very intriguing to me.

Kevin Gaines (44:21):

That was going to be one of my other points, not so much the energy audit, because we know where I stand on touchy-feely stuff. It makes me a little squirmy at times, even though it works for so many people.

Stephanie McCullough (44:34):

Oh, you love it. You just don’t want to admit it.

Kevin Gaines (44:40):

But what I did really like was when she was talking about the energy drainers, it’s not, oh, these are the downsides. This is what you have to adapt. She actually has this framework, or getting back to previous point questions on how do you deal with them?

Kevin Gaines (45:01):

Do you delegate? Do you delete? Do you dilute? There’s a couple different ways you can go about doing it and thinking about what those steps would look like can go a long way to just freeing up your day.

Stephanie McCullough (45:19):

Well, and the whole point of our podcast is to try to take back this idea of retirement. Let’s reclaim it. Let’s redefine it into what is more meaningful to us. So, often we are asking clients what they think they’re going to want in the future. But maybe it’s easier to talk about what they don’t want. What do they not want to have to deal with or stress about or do on a day-to-day basis? And that’s a perfectly valid way to start imagining what your future could look like. What could be possible.

Kevin Gaines (45:53):

And I’ve thrown this out here before in talking about the energy drainers of financial planning, retirement planning. Do you want to talk to a financial advisor who can take a lot of this for you? We have our own three sets of questions, if you want to work with a financial advisor.

Kevin Gaines (46:14):

When looking at doing it yourself, ask yourself, can I do this myself? Will I do this myself? And is it the best use of my time? And if those answers are no, then hey, we’re a perfect receptacle for the energy draining of your financial stresses in life. So, I go with that as my final thought.

Stephanie McCullough (46:40):

Leave it to Kevin to put in the pitch.

Kevin Gaines (46:45):

Anyway.

Stephanie McCullough (46:46):

Well, we hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation with Stacey as much as we did. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (46:53):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (46:58):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy, through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Disclaimer (47:13):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material, are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice, or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor, prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.