Ande Lyons (00:00):

There’s all these misperceptions and so, we’re all walking through life trying to work these things out. And age is just another journey that we need to learn to love and embrace, and certainly see it as the gift it is.

Stephanie McCullough (00:24):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (00:58):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (01:48):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia this is Take Back Retirement with Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:00):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:01):

Today, we get to talk to Ande Lyons. Ande is just a bundle of energy and optimism and joy as you’ll find out. Ande is a four times business founder, a formal global startup mentor, and a serial podcaster since – get this – 2012.

Stephanie McCullough (02:23):

She’s currently host of the popular Don’t Be Caged By Your Age Podcast, where Ande helps folks dissolve internalized ageist beliefs so that they can thrive after 65. She has conversations with people who have defied societal norms, shattered age-related expectations, and forge new and unexpected pathways that left them feeling enlivened, engaged and visible.

Stephanie McCullough (02:47):

What could be better and what could be better aligned with Take Back Retirement? We‘re super excited to welcome Ande Lyons. Ande Lyons, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Ande Lyons (02:59):

Oh, my gosh, Stephanie and Kevin, I am so delighted to be here to chat about how to thrive after 65. Woohoo.

Kevin Gaines (03:09):

Oh, this is going to be fun.

Stephanie McCullough (03:10):

Yes, absolutely. When we first met, I was like, “Oh, we have to have Ande on the show,” and it’s only taken a few months to get it done, but, okay. So, Ande, one of the things that you have mentioned to me, which I hadn’t really thought about before was this idea of internalized ageism. What the heck does that mean and what does it do to us?

Ande Lyons (03:30):

Oh, my gosh. Well, let me just step back and say there are three forms of ageism. You have the institutional where the companies are saying, “Hey, after 50 you have no more ambition left, and we of course are not going to invest in you anymore, and we’re just waiting for you to slide into retirement.” So, you constantly getting that message from the companies, see you, bye.

Ande Lyons (03:51):

Then there’s society saying, “Oh, don’t you be getting old because we’re a youth culture and we don’t want old, and old means bad, and you don’t know anything and you should be ashamed of yourself for getting old,” and all the messages.

Ande Lyons (04:03):

So, here you are going through life and you’re getting indoctrinated. You’re seeing how elders are treated through cards, the Hallmark cards, making fun of being old, all the advertisement out there. You better be fixing that because we can’t be having old people around here.

Ande Lyons (04:20):

So, you have taken this on, not to mention the fact that what you’ve seen your whole life is, “Well, I can’t do that when I’m old,” and old seems to start like in the 50s, which is so crazy and then now with the life expectancy of into the 90s, provided you have the gift of aging, what are you going to do with your life?

Ande Lyons (04:52):

Because I’m always saying to folks, “Pastures are for horses not human beings and humans need a purpose to get out of bed.” And so, what’s happened, and this in 2021, the World Health Organization said, “Hey, this is a crisis causing billions of dollars for societies.” So, that’s UK, U.S., Canada, Australia, the other European countries, and also Asian countries don’t have this prejudice and discrimination toward aging but we definitely do.

Ande Lyons (05:19):

And what has happened is that people have worked so hard and on purpose and working their lives away and they get to that “retirement age” and geez, just because the clock strikes midnight on a milestone age doesn’t mean you are ready to head out there with horses.

Ande Lyons (05:37):

But you are starting to tell yourself that and now you get the gold watch or whatever happens when you retire, everybody cheers for you, “Yay,” and now you wake up and you’re like, “Oh, so great. I don’t have to go to work. I’m going to go play golf, or I’m going to go play with the grandkids. I’m going to go gardening,” that lasts for about three months and all of a sudden, you’re sitting on the couch.

Ande Lyons (05:58):

And what happens to so many retirees is they start to fade, their health goes down, their mental health starts to decline and their brains, their minds don’t function as well as they used to. And what they’re finding is that these internalized ageist beliefs that they’ve told themselves, well, this is what I was shown, that retirement looks like I’m supposed to put on the cardigan sweater and get a cane and that’s it.

Ande Lyons (06:27):

But what we know from statistics is that the pre-retirees, 7 out of 10 of them want to keep working. They love what they’re doing or they want to be engaged or they want to try new things and the support isn’t there for that. The representation hasn’t been there for that.

Ande Lyons (06:46):

And so, this is why I started the Don’t Be Caged By Your Age Podcast, was to start providing representation. In fact, I have to screen my guests and say, “Are you old enough? I’m carding you. Are you old enough to be on the show?”

Ande Lyons (07:03):

And so, to want to maybe write a book or be an extreme sports person. I interviewed a woman who’s 72, she just was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest female ninja athlete.

Stephanie McCullough (07:20):

Oh yeah, I heard about her.

Ande Lyons (07:21):

Yeah. Ginny MacColl. And so, I would never wanted to do a pull up my entire life and I still don’t want to but if that’s what you’re called to do, I mean there’s so many threads you can pull on. So, we are up against these limitations.

Ande Lyons (07:36):

And what you guys do such a great job at is making sure everybody’s prepared financially for retirement. But how do you get prepared for those limiting beliefs that say, “I am too old to fill in the blank. And how do I build community? How do I stay visible? How do I stay connected?”

Kevin Gaines (07:56):

So, as we’re recording, I think the high today is supposed to be like 98 degrees here in Philadelphia. Yet as you’re talking to Ande, what I’m thinking of is White Christmas, Bing Crosby, Danny Kaye and famous, It’s Christmas movie.

Kevin Gaines (08:13):

And I’m picturing the scene where Bing walks up to the retired general, he’s still optimistic. He’s running this and in New Hampshire, but he’s optimistic. He’s getting ready to go back into the military. He asked, he knows it’s going to happen.

Kevin Gaines (08:29):

Bing Crosby says, “Well, why aren’t you playing horseshoes? That’s what old guys do. I’m going back in, da da, da,” gets the letter. They’re saying he’s not welcome. He stands up, starts to play horseshoes. So, as we’re talking about this internal ageism, that’s the image that’s coming to my mind.

Stephanie McCullough (08:48):

Like, that’s all I can do since the job rejected me, I guess all I have available to me is horseshoes.

Kevin Gaines (08:53):

I have to play. So, horseshoes is what old guys do., I’m apparently an old guy, so this is what I have to do.

Ande Lyons (09:00):

How sad is that, Kevin, thank you for that stroll down memory lane and recalling that. I mean, he was still young, he had so much more to offer, right?

Kevin Gaines (09:09):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (09:09):

It’s almost like these two things are crashing up against each other. The societal messages and the beliefs we’ve internalized versus the, “wait, I don’t feel old and I want to stay engaged.” Do you feel like people get that tension?

Ande Lyons (09:22):

Oh, my gosh, yes. The biggest limitation is that they never gave it a single thought. They’ve been following the directions for saving and perhaps maybe taking care of themselves physically, but that mental health and that social connectivity is so important.

Ande Lyons (09:41):

So, you may have heard this whole talk about the blue zone and that’s the places where people are living well past a hundred. The number one reason why is because they’re connected, they’re engaged, they’re seen, they’re visible, they’re viable. People want to know what’s going on.

Ande Lyons (10:00):

And that’s why a lot of times you fall into this category of I’m just going to hang out with other people my age, that too is debilitating. Building friendships, not just relationships, but friendships from intergenerational situations are so important.

Ande Lyons (10:18):

And we have a mutual friend, Kerry Hannon, who talks about how when Yahoo Finance reached out to her to come back and come work for her, her manager was going to be someone 20 years younger than her and a lot of Gen X and baby boomers are like, “Say what?” At all.

Ande Lyons (10:39):

But I love how she talks about how this really enriched her life and then that exchange of ideas and understandings has made the experience so much better. And so, that can be a limiting belief as well.

Stephanie McCullough (10:54):

So, what have you seen in your own experience and your experience with the podcast, interviewing really cool people, what helps people break out of these limiting internalized ageist beliefs?

Ande Lyons (11:09):

Representation, first of all, because if you see it, you can be it. So, hearing the stories of someone who went back to school, and you can go back to school online if you want to get a degree. But I interviewed a phenomenal woman, Mildred Mills episode two, everyone how she went back and got her master’s in creative writing because she knew she had a book in her, but she was 68, so she had to kind of overcome that belief.

Ande Lyons (11:33):

Got the book out, has a podcast. But now she also wanted to become a speaker to share, motivational speaker, her experiences and now she’s starting that and she’s about to turn 73. But it can also be someone who’s blind in one eye and can’t walk.

Ande Lyons (11:52):

So, I interviewed the private investigator who can do a lot of the work right from her laptop or Sandra Allison who I’m laughing now because I had to check my own values when I was interviewing Sandra, she’s 72. She had been let go, downsized right before she turned 60 and could not get a job and she was so frustrated and so darn mad.

Ande Lyons (12:18):

She learned how to create the best resumes in the world, especially for gamifying. The way they can scan your resume and tell you that you’re too old, she’s figured out how you can get away from not getting hindered by that. Oh, she’s amazing, and at the age of 72, just had to hire someone else because her business is so busy.

Ande Lyons (12:37):

But we were talking about gaming. She goes, “Well, I’m a gamer,” and of course I immediately thought, “Bingo.” And she says, “No, Ande, I have been gaming and shooting zombies since we had to do punchcards on mainframes.” So, again, this is representation. And there is a huge population of our elders who are getting darn good at gaming. And so-

Stephanie McCullough (13:02):

Wild. That’s not something I thought of.

Ande Lyons (13:05):

So, assisted living places are having to up their WIFI game as well because you need good connection for gaming, in fact, you really need to be plugged in.

Stephanie McCullough (13:13):

All those high graphics and everything.

Ande Lyons (13:16):

Exactly. So, that leads me to the whole doing new things and welcoming, doing new things and as we age, we often fall into, again, a limiting belief about who we’re supposed to be. I should already know how to fill in the blank at this age.

Ande Lyons (13:33):

And Kevin, with all due respect, it’s even a lot more prevalent with men because men love to win. And why would I want to start something new and have to be a loser until I get to that winning point?

Ande Lyons (13:46):

And so, again, dissolving those, finding the resources to dissolve those, whether it’s through the guidance of a coach, a therapist, people, a community, however that works, to try these new things and see this renaissance period, as Judith Kurnick calls it this 55 to 80s they’re calling the Renaissance period and then 81 to 100 is legacy and any time after a hundred it’s extra.

Ande Lyons (14:14):

So again, reframing this time period and saying, “Okay, so what do I want to learn next?” Because what we know from studies of the brain is doing new things will give your brain the elasticity, synapsing, all the good things much longer so you can stay more agile and keep the frontal lobe and all the other lobes happy and sparking the way they should for a good additional 5 or 10 years.

Ande Lyons (14:44):

So, that should encourage folks to do new things. But again, if you don’t know, how do you do it? So, there’s this great book behind me and anybody’s looking, I don’t know, we have video here, but there’s a great book called Don’t Retire, REWIRE.

Ande Lyons (14:59):

And what I love about this book by Jeri Sedlar, first of all, she’s a stats gal from way back. She asks, in this book the most important questions that you need to go through. And I know it’s hard to sit down, maybe you can get a buddy system, someone to help you be accountable or do it as a group but go through the questions so that you can see what fuels your passion now.

Ande Lyons (15:23):

And something could fuel your passion, be in alignment with your personality and fill your pocketbook or three, five years but be willing to then pivot. Be willing to go, “Okay, that turned me on for a minute. I’m now going to go do this.”

Ande Lyons (15:38):

Or there’s an attorney that I heard about who was really great as an attorney, but she had a sidekick with her own home at landscaping. And everybody said, “Oh, you got to become a landscaper.” And she’s like, “Okay, that sounds great.”

Ande Lyons (15:52):

Well, then she realized it was just too isolating, too lonely and she liked doing it for herself, but not for others. So, she quickly pulled on that thread and said, “Oh heck no, that’s not for me”. So, being willing to pull on those threads, “Does that feel good?” “No, that doesn’t feel, oh, I kind of liked that.” And trying it out without thinking of judging yourself about being a failure or not sticking to it.

Stephanie McCullough (16:16):

I think that’s a big thing. People feel like, “Oh, this is a giant momentous decision because once I make the decision of what I’m going to spend my time on, I have to stick to it stick.” And that’s not true. With anything in life, we can pivot and change and adjust and there’s no shame in that. It’s being an adventurer almost.

Ande Lyons (16:35):

In that mentality, an explorer. And maybe, like someone in a lab experimenting, you wouldn’t judge yourself for trying new things that way. But the most important thing is society is feeding our own internalized limitations, but also fears of being in that dark room on Thanksgiving with nobody to be with.

Ande Lyons (17:04):

There’s so many memes and so many sad stories of nursing home. Like, “Look, we’re just going to warehouse you now in the nursing home, and there you go.” No, no, no, no, no and we have to take the ball though. We have to say, “How can I be more self-actualized? How can I have more connection?”

Ande Lyons (17:23):

And also, the mental health part, when you’re in Medicare folks, you get mental health services usually for free. So, and many people have that as a service or if you have an add-on, like I have MedX, there’s no copay and there’s plenty of people out there who will get paid by Medicare to have a good conversation with you and help you get through some of the fears.

Ande Lyons (17:48):

And of course, this again is how to process this time of life. And so, I’ve got an episode coming up soon with the wonderful Tami Barber, and I don’t know if you met her at Podfest. She, in 1977 became a Dallas cowboy cheerleader.

Stephanie McCullough (18:05):

Oh, yes. Of course. Tami, you can’t miss Tami. She is a kick.

Ande Lyons (18:10):

She was on The Love Boat too. So, she has had stage four cancer for over three years and you would never know it, almost four years. She’s been in constant chemo. But she made the decision that she would take it in steps and that she was here to live until her last breath. So, again, it’s that how do you live until it’s over, as Cyndi Lauper likes to say, “It ain’t over til it’s over.”

Stephanie McCullough (18:40):

Well, and I think your point about getting mental health support is interesting because I grew up in a family where that was frowned upon, unless you were really messed up, you didn’t go try to get help. So, that message is still kind of in my head, even though I’ve gotten over it, my family’s gotten over it.

Stephanie McCullough (18:57):

But I think maybe that can be still a little bit of a barrier. Like, “Well, I don’t really maybe need help. I’m just a little confused about which direction to go in.” But that is still a fine time too, because if we’re spinning around in our own heads, it’s hard to get anywhere but if you can find someone, like you said, to have a good conversation with.

Ande Lyons (19:17):

And help talk to, if you haven’t done it before, talk to all those internal family systems that that have been jabbering away at you. Again, those are your limiting beliefs that will prevent you from trying these new things and especially technology.

Ande Lyons (19:33):

I am constantly reminding people, we began coding and building tech companies in the 70s. Okay. Technology has been around forever. It is not rocket-science or brain surgery. This is something you can learn and so many folks get popped into that corner, they’re over 65, what do they know about technology? Are you kidding? Some real smart people out there nailing it for the first time.

Ande Lyons (20:02):

If you go on TikTok, let me tell you, there are a ton of elders kicking it on TikTok love it as well as IG stories. They know how to do it. I had a guest on the show who worked for Voice of America for 30, 40 years, traveling the world as a journalist.

Ande Lyons (20:18):

So, she’s taking this time of her life. Took some acting lessons, took some modeling classes, she’ll go out to Macy’s and pick up a couple of outfits and she’ll say, “What do you think?” And do this. But she’ll also ask really important questions about life and aging while she’s doing it all in front of the camera.

Ande Lyons (20:34):

She had to edit that baby and get it going and doing all the things, we can do hard things and we can do new things as elders. So, I always just want to keep reminding folks, don’t get caught up in that belief because so many people are telling you, “Well, you’re over 65. What do you know?”

Kevin Gaines (20:53):

I mean, and that’s a really good point. Because I mean, if you think about it, so Pong, the first video game, or what’s perceived as the first popular video game came out in 1972, I think. Which means if you got Pong when you first play Pong when you were 18-years-old, you’re 70 now. You have been playing video games-

Ande Lyons (21:14):

Hey, can we play Pac-Man at the bars in the late 70s.

Kevin Gaines (21:18):

So, I mean, it’s a mindset that yes, we think, old people, technology, the two don’t equate. We’re eerie that people have been using “technology” their entire lives, but we don’t have that perception.

Ande Lyons (21:36):

That is right. And so, again, it’s that limiting belief that we’ve taught ourselves, “Oh, I can’t do that.” It’s technology and society sure likes to support that. And so, we need to get rid of that and slap that back and clap that back. We also need to talk a lot about energy portfolio.

Ande Lyons (21:54):

So, as you get past 65, you have energy for things. You don’t have, especially if you were a high performer, you really don’t have that high energy you used to have. So, now you’re looking at, and you’re becoming more discerning, where do I want to put my energy?

Ande Lyons (22:11):

And I’ve interviewed several folks who have said, “My gosh, I have never made this much money in my life and I’m working less, like 10 hours a week less,” and so that’s something else you can think about is if you’re going to be around for another 10, 20, 30 years, how do you fill your pocketbook?

Ande Lyons (22:33):

Are there still things that you can do that can add a lift so you can go on all those trips or do more or give back more. But the other thing I really want to talk about is a movement I’m feeling strong to put out there into the world, especially as a woman, is to age out loud.

Ande Lyons (22:53):

Everyone on my show has to be willing to say their age when we’re on the show and we do it right away and it’s always going to be right up front. And I say this because being a global startup mentor for eight years, having a monthly pitch event for startup founders in Boston for three years, I would hear this all the time.

Ande Lyons (23:16):

“Oh, pitch your business as if you were talking to your grandmother,” and they’d have to hold me back. I’d be like I want to get into a fight over that. But what happened was I started to feel so self-conscious about my age, and I thought, “How do I fix this?”

Ande Lyons (23:31):

So, when I turned 66 in August of 2022, I got the route U.S. 66 signed, and I held it up in front of me and I took a picture. And you can see in that picture, the look on my face is like, “Will you still love me now that you know I’m 66?”

Ande Lyons (23:51):

But that’s when I wrote about, Don’t Be Caged By Your Age because I wanted to point out how many people were still doing things and it went viral on LinkedIn. And that’s where I saw people who had reinvented themselves and reimagined and repurposed their lived experiences to do some phenomenal things.

Ande Lyons (24:07):

But the aging out loud is so liberating, especially for women. And when you can look in the mirror and practice radical self-love and accept that this is my age, these are my barnacles, these are my wrinkles, these are my brown spots, and they’re supposed to be there. Sure, if they annoy you, you can go get the surgery and get the — thing, the chemical peels or whatever but you are supposed to look that way and it’s okay.

Ande Lyons (24:41):

And all of a sudden, you go out into the world and you’re like, “Yeah, 68, that’s me baby,” instead of going and also giving people permission to ask you how old you are and reminding them to say, “You look great,” and leave it there. Stop. Instead of saying, “You look great for your age.” “Oh, really?” That’s an ageist comment right there. Because that means, “Well, what am I supposed to look like?”

Stephanie McCullough (25:11):

Yeah. Yeah. So, you said you were feeling self-conscious about your age in all those pitch startup things and then you started to age out loud. What was the switch for you? How did you get up that bravery?

Ande Lyons (25:22):

Well, first of all, my biggest fan club were the under 30 crowds. So, I knew right there that it was how I vibed, it had nothing to do with my age, that’s what. But also, that the millennials and the Zs are not so hung up about age. It’s really the gen Gen Xers and the baby boomers.

Ande Lyons (25:45):

But that said, it was this feeling like, I need to come out, I need to be brave. I need to write this post. And I sat with it for a good six months knowing the 66 was coming up and knowing that holding up the U.S. Route 66 sign would make it a fun experience and a fun story to write about.

Ande Lyons (26:04):

But I could not live another second with people thinking I was 50, 55 and just really needing to honor the fact I’ve been around for decades for myself to honor that but for others to honor that as well.

Stephanie McCullough (26:20):

It’s hard earned.

Ande Lyons (26:22):

It’s hard earned. So, again, it’s that reframing and even, who is a phenomenal, high performance executive coach, she really helps folks go and transition in their 60s from maybe that high-powered, high-energy job into something that’s a better fit for them.

Ande Lyons (26:41):

Even she, it took her a month to share our episode because she said, “I like my clients and my friends might know my age, but I had not been willing to come out about it.” And she was really scared and she’s 72.

Ande Lyons (26:56):

But because people would be like, “72, you’re going to probably lose your edge,” there’s all these misperceptions. And so, we’re all walking through life trying to work these things out and age is just another journey that we need to learn to love and embrace and certainly see it as the gift it is.

Stephanie McCullough (27:17):

I love that framing of it as a gift. You’ve talked about how there’s no support for staying engaged and fulfilled as we move forward. If someone may be listening is finding themselves in a situation where they don’t feel that support around them to try new things or get out there and be active, what would you suggest?

Ande Lyons (27:38):

Oh, go to meetup.com. There is something fun going around where you are. And whether you’re traveling outside the country or within the country, seriously, go put in your zip code, where are you going to be and find out, because people are creating meetups over all sorts of interesting things.

Ande Lyons (28:00):

And you could then get that intergenerational experience you might be looking for because you share a passion, whether it’s photography or cooking or travel, hiking or base flower arrangements, gardening, whatever that might be or just people want to get together and chat about life. Finding community is so important.

Ande Lyons (28:23):

And then if you’re brave enough, you can create your own meetup. So, you might be thinking, I’d like to have a group of people to get together. Like I did, I created a group recently for podcasters that were from New England. I didn’t want to just do Massachusetts because we got the six states here.

Ande Lyons (28:41):

And I thought, “I love indie podcasters. I’ve been doing this since 2012. How much fun would it be to start a monthly group? And we’ll just see how it evolves. We’ll see what happens. There’s no judging.” If one person shows up, you’ve got a connection and then maybe you can take it from there. But to me, that’s an important resource.

Ande Lyons (29:01):

And then there’s lots of books I carry lots of information at don’tbecagedbyyourage.com for folks who want to start exploring how can they go back to work? How can they continue to earn income? How can they find something they’re passionate about?

Ande Lyons (29:16):

There’s so many different ways and so many different examples out there. But we have to start seeing those instead of how we’re supposed to be at this age, because it’s a different ball game than when our parents or our grandparents retired.

Kevin Gaines (29:32):

You seem like a very confident person. You’re owning everything that you’re doing right now. So, were you confident when you created this podcasting group or did you have any anxiety?

Ande Lyons (29:45):

Well, I always have anxiety.

Stephanie McCullough (29:48):

You wouldn’t guess it to see you.

Ande Lyons (29:49):

Oh, I know. I live with anxiety. I definitely an anxious person. Anxiety is about worrying about the future versus depression, worrying about the past. I hang out in anxiety. But for me, I was so committed to finding community for me and having people to talk to from different walks of life and different generations.

Ande Lyons (30:12):

I was willing to tolerate my own greatest fear, which is, “Well, what if I throw a party and nobody comes?” And anybody listening, raise your hand if that’s happened to you, mine’s way up there. Starting in childhood all the way in through adulthood.

Ande Lyons (30:29):

So, it’s hard and it’s scary, but sometimes the why we talk about this a lot in the startup ecosystem is that why is stronger than your fear. And that nothing ventured, nothing gained is so true. And being willing to sort of put yourself out there, but don’t worry, don’t have the expectations, don’t compare and despair. Find a way to just have that one conversation.

Ande Lyons (30:54):

And then as people start to come together, you can start delegating and getting more people to contribute but that community aspect is so important. And there’s just not enough for our age group for intergenerational relationships.

Ande Lyons (31:10):

Because you don’t want to be the one going, “Well, what’s Brat for? Or all the different lingos that are happening, what’s this spill the tea? What does that mean?” When you’re hanging out with intergenerational folks, they’re going to go, “Oh, Ande, that means, we’re given the scoop.” Go and give the whole down low, the People magazine story behind something that spilled the tea.

Stephanie McCullough (31:31):

My parents texted my son the other day and said, “Who is this Snoop dog on the Olympics?” So, my son gave them a whole couple paragraph explanation of who Snoop Dogg was. There you go.

Ande Lyons (31:44):

Exactly. Exactly. So, we don’t get stuck in our groove. And so, it’s just so wonderful to have relationships with our peers, but even more with our intergenerational friends around us. And I was so excited to hear about an assisted living space in places that are going up that offer free room and board to college students in exchange for being part of the community at the assisted.

Stephanie McCullough (32:14):

Oh, that’s a brilliant idea. I heard about one somewhere, I feel like it was maybe in the Netherlands, where there’s a daycare and an assisted living in the same space so that the old folks get to interact with the young little ones.

Ande Lyons (32:25):

Which is great. I have no interest in that but-

Stephanie McCullough (32:28):

No, thank you.

Ande Lyons (32:32):

And I’m celebrating my firstborn’s birthday is today. But I was always the give them to me when they’re eight, seven or eight and I’ll be on the name. But anyway, I do love those conversations with the teenagers, the 18 to 25-year-olds, it’s just their perspective of life.

Ande Lyons (32:49):

It helps you tap into who you were then when your life was ahead of you and just gets sort of filled with how they’re seeing the world. In the meantime, they get the exchange of your wisdom and your fun stories.

Stephanie McCullough (33:02):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great.

Ande Lyons (33:04):

And I think that’s one of the things that has surprised me the most when I interview folks, is I always ask them as we get started, “Can you just tell a story or two about the something that is special over the last 50 years to help give us a flavor of who you are.”

Ande Lyons (33:20):

And I have heard stories like, “Say what, you did what?” From being working at Studio 54 in New York City, what, to designing the poster, one of the posters for the 1984 Olympics. Things that were not in the bio. That you don’t get.

Stephanie McCullough (33:43):

Oh, that’s fun.

Ande Lyons (33:44):

Jaw dropping. So, that’s always a fun part of the show.

Stephanie McCullough (33:48):

I mean, when we get to these ages, we’ve got a lot of experiences behind us, right?

Ande Lyons (33:53):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (33:56):

I love your idea of age out loud and talk about it. We’re always saying talk about money, because that’s a big taboo but ageism also, I mean age and just embracing it.

Ande Lyons (34:09):

That’s right. And listeners are in their 50s for my show because they are anxious. They know that they’re already being considered permafrost at their organizations they’re working at.

Stephanie McCullough (34:18):

Yeah. We’re seeing it. We’ve got a couple clients who’ve been laid off in their mid, late 50s.

Ande Lyons (34:23):

And ambition, I mean, is ageless. You’re wanting to wake up and do something. I’m married to a guy who’s at the top of his game, my darling man, and he’s about to hit 73 and he’s doing what he’s always wanted to do over the decades, but he had to wait for everything to catch up.

Ande Lyons (34:42):

He’s a pioneer in the energy storage industry, but he’s been in renewable energy since 76 and to helping to take down coal companies and fossil fuel. So, now, right, it’s really amazing what he’s able to do. So, there’s just continuing to provide that representation, but also, he still has to be cautious. Who is he going to tell? That age, because the bias is there.

Ande Lyons (35:10):

So, often it’s one thing to age out loud, but it’s another thing to maybe be cautious about it if it’s a work situation. So, they first see that you’ve got what it takes to bring what they’re looking for to the table, but at the same time then slip in the age. It’s really, really hard.

Ande Lyons (35:28):

And this is what happens generations now that we have boomers and Gen Xers aging, generations of talent are getting wasted every single day and that is absolutely wrong. Because just because someone … and what I love about AARP, they have a foundation that goes around and sues companies for that level of discrimination.

Ande Lyons (35:52):

So, they’ve got a great lawsuit against Raytheon right now. Because Raytheon was like, “Oh, forget you old engineers we’re going for the young ones.” They haven’t been through the crises that these you need the full team, the full life exposure for your team. So, these changes do not happen unless they’re policy changes and get a good policy change, you often have to go to court.

Stephanie McCullough (36:17):

I have a friend who works in — we have the same birthday, he’s a year younger than me exactly. He works in tech, and he purposely doesn’t use cultural references with his team and doesn’t talk about how old his kids are. Like he’s trying to kind of paint himself, project himself as maybe a decade younger than he actually is, when he could pull it off.

Ande Lyons (36:37):

Imagine the stress.

Stephanie McCullough (36:39):

Yeah, that’s right.

Ande Lyons (36:41):

And with all due respect to our delicious white men out there, what I’ve been seeing on LinkedIn are a lot of guys who are 60, 61, 62, and they are furious because they are experiencing discrimination for the first time. Women, people of color, we’ve all been there for decades.

Ande Lyons (37:00):

But this is their first time being discriminated by age and they are, “I got turned down from a job because I’m too old.” But that’s okay because they’ll add to the swell and their anger will be turned into action, into policy, into changing the bias.

Stephanie McCullough (37:21):

Yeah. I certainly hope so. It has to change.

Ande Lyons (37:24):

It has to change. And especially within corporations, the pro aging movement and the whole group of folks who are in the pro aging movement. You can go on TikTok, you can go on Instagram. It is so powerful. There’s the silvering pro aging group, women who turned silver at 34 and celebrating that.

Ande Lyons (37:46):

And it’s just the whole state of mind that we need to be in. And then one thing that I think is really sad is when you see people in their 70s and 80s and 90s are treated like children, they’re infantilized. Is that the word?

Stephanie McCullough (38:02):

Yeah.

Ande Lyons (38:03):

Oh, honey. Oh, sweetie.

Ande Lyons (38:06):

Boy, I regret the person who tries that on me someday. Because it’s hard enough when you go to sit with your doctor or you go anywhere. At my age, people say, “Oh, so are you retired?” And I just go right back. So, ageist much? That is an ageist remark and I don’t appreciate it. Let’s shift it.

Ande Lyons (38:30):

And especially in medical too, you’re not going to get the same treatment. You have to really learn how to understand your doctors and service providers.

Stephanie McCullough (38:40):

In your 60s, that’s crazy.

Ande Lyons (38:41):

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They just go whatever, there’s just this-

Stephanie McCullough (38:45):

Throw away.

Ande Lyons (38:46):

Yep. And so, you best be on your toes with these people and demand those service you deserve when you were 40.

Kevin Gaines (38:58):

But that also gets to your point of living your age out loud, is if we’re feeling shame about our own self, then that’s almost like it gives people permission to feel shame for you. Would you agree?

Ande Lyons (39:13):

Yeah. I mean, there’s a great comedic actress I think it’s a Maybelline commercial, and this young man calls her ma’am, and she’s horrified because that means I’m old. Here we go. There’s just so many brands that are still putting it out there to help you feel ashamed.

Ande Lyons (39:32):

Oh, I’m laughing because a woman I interviewed, she’s 72, a phenomenal world-renowned artist. And her friend who’s 84, a phenomenal poet, put together a book called Help! We Can’t Stop Aging and it’s filled with so many funny, funny poems and wonderful artwork to just bring some humor to this situation where golly, folks.

Ande Lyons (40:03):

And what I really find so encouraging, and I know my listeners who are younger, who are tuning in, are so encouraged by, is people talking about in their 70s and in their 80s having their best life ever, and you can’t get that out enough. So, anyway, I’m so glad you brought me on your podcast so I could talk about all my excitement for getting old.

Stephanie McCullough (40:30):

Alright. Have you seen the movie, Thelma?

Ande Lyons (40:32):

Just Thelma?

Stephanie McCullough (40:33):

Yes.

Ande Lyons (40:35):

No, I have not. I’m going to write it right down now.

Stephanie McCullough (40:37):

You must go see it. She’s an amazing actress, June Squibb, who’s in her 90s and the story is that she gets scammed by the grandson scam. The “grandson” calls up and he’s in jail, and grandma, you have to mail $10,000 in cash.

Stephanie McCullough (40:52):

And of course, there’s heightened emotion and all the things that this scam experts tells us. Heightened emotion, sense of urgency, and oh, you can’t tell anybody. So, she mails off the money and the family gets together and everything’s fine. Grandson is fine, but she gets pissed and she’s going to go after these scammers. And it’s the most delightful, wonderful movie. I love it. It’s in the theaters now.

Ande Lyons (41:12):

Where am I finding it? Is it like Netflix, Prime?

Stephanie McCullough (41:15):

I saw the theater.

Ande Lyons (41:17):

Oh, I’m all over that for sure. I don’t know how I missed that.

Stephanie McCullough (41:20):

Oh, it’s delightful. Really fun. And I’m sure there’s some ageist stuff in there too, but it’s a very fun.

Ande Lyons (41:28):

That’s okay. And you know, on my YouTube shorts and on the, Don’t Be Caged By Your Age, TikTok feed and Instagram feed, I’m constantly sharing folks talking about aging-

Stephanie McCullough (41:40):

Yes, you are, and it’s great. Love it.

Ande Lyons (41:41):

And their experiences. It’s really fun to bring it in, whether it’s Mick Jagger running up and down the stage at 81. And I saw him in 1979, and I got to tell you, what’s that, 45 years ago? I see no difference.

Stephanie McCullough (41:58):

Miraculous. Awesome. Well, Ande, where can people find you? You’ve mentioned some of the different platforms you’re on but give us the scoop.

Ande Lyons (42:08):

I am a social media, equal opportunity person, you’ll find me everywhere. And so, it’s Ande Lyons, and the podcast is, Don’t Be Caged By Your Age. Tune in, say hi, let me know how your aging, what your thoughts are and I’d love to hear from folks.

Stephanie McCullough (42:30):

Awesome. Thanks so much for being with us.

Ande Lyons (42:32):

Thank you for having me. It’s great to hang out with you.

Kevin Gaines (42:35):

Thank you. Well, Stephanie, I know you hate when I always say that there’s a lot to unpack, but there was a lot to unpack this time. And in fact, one thing I wish we would’ve spent more time talking about was being willing to try new things as you enter “retirement”.

Kevin Gaines (42:58):

Because I mean, here’s the problem as I see it, is when we’re younger, we have so many different demands on our time, trying a new thing is you only have so much capacity to do that. You can only try one, maybe two things at a time because you’ve got everything else going on, work, kids, et cetera but as you get older, you now have the time to try new things.

Kevin Gates (43:23):

But to Ande’s point, we’ve been so conditioned, “Oh, well we can’t do this, or we can’t do that, or we’ve got to do this, we got to do that.” We fail to seize the opportunity to do, what the hell, let’s try 10 new things if I don’t like eight, nine of them, so what? Now, embrace that.

Stephanie McCullough (43:42):

I feel uncomfortable being bad at things. I’ve worked my whole life to get good at my job. I’m good at the things I do on a regular basis. It’s uncomfortable to be bad at something, to be a beginner and flub up a bunch of times. I think that’s a piece of it too.

Kevin Gaines (43:58):

Absolutely. Well, probably goes into the ageism thing, the self-ageism thing. I’m too old to be doing new. But to get over that hurdle of I’m too old to be doing new things, it’s something we’ve got to work on ourselves to motivate ourselves to get over that hurdle.

Stephanie McCullough (44:22):

And maybe it’s taking little baby steps one at a time, but I also like her idea of community and reaching out and finding other folks who can provide, support and guidance or even just encouragement, representation.

Stephanie McCullough (44:38):

See that, oh my gosh, there are people in my community who are interested in this thing that I’ve always kind of been fascinated by or maybe there are younger people who I can go watch their game.

Stephanie McCullough (44:51):

Maybe I’m not going to take up fencing, but I can go watch them fence because I think it’s super interesting. Yes, I’ve been watching the Olympics and seeing lots of fencing but there’s different ways to approach it. So, maybe the first place to start is kind of the brainstorming of, “What areas am I feeling like I could work on?”

Stephanie McCullough (45:09):

Whether it’s trying new things or finding community, and then what are some little baby steps that I could take to try to move in that direction. Because I think sometimes the action leads to the momentum, leads to who knows where, maybe somewhere different than you thought you were going when you started.

Kevin Gaines (45:27):

I mean, and it could just be little things. Taking a walk in the park and seeing what that different activity, see what you get sucked into, or this is the age of internet and social media, just go on and see and just type in random things that you’re interested in and again, just see what you get sucked into.

Stephanie McCullough (45:48):

I do find it fascinating how our beliefs about aging can actually impact our health, like the connection again between mind and body and in ways that, I don’t know, for me at least, I’m continually surprised like, “Oh, right, if I believe that aging is bad, then my physical body health might actually follow that.” Whereas if I feel positive about it and have a positive image of what is possible that can of change my health outcomes. It’s amazing.

Kevin Gaines (46:19):

It’s a cliché, but you’re only as old as you feel. There is merit to that saying.

Stephanie McCullough (46:27):

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Ande is super energizing. I always found her to be just a shot of straight energy and enthusiasm. So, I’m so glad we could have her on. We hope you enjoyed it. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (46:42):

And it’s goodbye from her.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (46:46):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (47:01):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.