Stephanie McCullough (00:06):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (00:29):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (00:55):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (01:06):

Hello Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (01:08):

Today we have a conversation with Kim Curtis, and I am really excited to talk to Kim. She is CEO of Wealth Legacy Institute out in Denver, Colorado. She is also a financial planner, as you will hear.

Stephanie McCullough (01:21):

Kim takes a very holistic approach in working with her clients, and she has been recognized by the industry in several different ways. What I am excited about though, is she has written quite a few books at this point. She is the author of Money Secrets, Retirement Secrets, and she’s got a new book coming out soon called Keys to Authenticity.

Stephanie McCullough (01:46):

So, we are going to dig into the story of her career, some of her lessons and secrets that she shares in her books, and how the language around money is gendered and that does not serve women. So, let’s dive in.

Stephanie McCullough (02:06):

Kim Curtis, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Kim Curtis (02:08):

Thank you. Great to be here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:11):

I was so excited to talk to you because we are in the same industry. We’re all financial planners here, but you like me, were a career changer at the age of 30. Tell us a little bit about your career-changing story.

Kim Curtis (02:23):

Well, I have a legal background and the area of expertise was negotiation and mediation. And I moved up in the ranks and recognized that I was no longer doing settlement conferences or negotiations or mediations. And so, I recognized I wanted to do something that allowed me to be back in the heart of the matter. And I ended up in financial services from a quiz.

Stephanie McCullough (02:47):

A quiz?

Kim Curtis (02:48):

Yeah. I had a friend in human resources who actually went through the battery of tests and financial planning came up as a viable alternative, and I’ve been doing it ever since.

Stephanie McCullough (03:00):

Did you have a good idea at that time what it actually looked like?

Kim Curtis (03:05):

Think of how much the industry has changed in the last 30 years. It’s just been so wonderful to watch from more brokerage led to more independent fiduciary led, and that’s been really fun to see.

Kim Curtis (03:20):

So, no, I had no idea of the magnitude of the responsibility that we have for clients. The stewardship that we have for clients and recognizing through pretty down markets our ability to self-manage ourselves, so that we don’t spill into the room for our clients and really keep that container open and protective for them.

Kim Curtis (03:44):

So, that’s big and that’s a learning that we do over years of being in this profession, is making sure that our stuff doesn’t end up in their journey.

Stephanie McCullough (03:54):

Oh yeah, that one hits home.

Stephanie McCullough (03:58):

So, tell us, you’re a multiple-time author, but one of the things that you and I discussed when we spoke before was the fact that I think this is interesting for maybe the listeners to hear that, I try to tell people that all of us have money shame, we’ve got shame, we’ve got stuck places, as Bari Tessler says.

Stephanie McCullough (04:19):

And they might think that that means, “Oh yeah, she means everybody, but not financial professionals, not financial planners, they don’t have money shame.” But that’s not true, is it?

Kim Curtis (04:29):

Certainly not true. It’s interesting. When I was a teenager, my parents got divorced and my mom got full custody of three teenage girls, and she had no employable skills. So, she applied for and received government-assisted lunches for us.

Kim Curtis (04:45):

And at the time it was a red paper ticket. It was like one of those raffle tickets. It looked exactly like that. And I had to hand that to the cashier every day and I’d go to the farthest line, look back to make sure my friends weren’t nearby, hide the ticket under my plate as I walked through the line before I quickly passed it to the cashier.

Kim Curtis (05:06):

And that whole — not only does everyone know that you’re poor, but the shame around not enough and unworthiness just got bigger and bigger, that went through. But my mother did have a significant value to the three girls. And that was to get your education because no one can take it away from you.

Kim Curtis (05:26):

So, I went to undergrad and went to law school and within six months completely defaulted on my school loans. I had no business understanding credit reports, what that meant, what the score meant, and how to manage money. And at the time, in today’s dollars, it was about $92,000. So, that was way before I landed in financial services.

Stephanie McCullough (05:50):

That sticks with a person. I mean, have you spent, I imagine, spent time kind of dissecting how that has influenced your behavior since?

Kim Curtis (05:59):

Oh, really dissect. I had to dissect it, but what happened is that I had an anonymous donor pay a thousand dollars on my school loan debt. And I’m a firm believer of how you do money is how you do life. And when your head’s in the sand on money, trust me, you’re in denial in other areas of your life.

Kim Curtis (06:18):

And the fact that I even opened the statement was shocking to me that I noticed that the value went down, not up. And what happened was like a snap, almost immediate, because it was anonymous. I couldn’t ask the person, “What do you see in me that I don’t see in me? Or what do you want?”

Kim Curtis (06:37):

I really had to have that conversation with myself. And so, in that conversation is what do they see in me that I don’t see in me? Who do I want to be? How do I become that person? And it was a journey of course.

Kim Curtis (06:49):

But from that point forward, I really kind of took control of my life as it relates to, I’m a firm believer that events happen in our life that we have no control over, but we do have control over our responses or our choices, and those choices dictate our outcome.

Kim Curtis (07:06):

And so, I think from that point on, I just kind of took ownership of doing things in my life that were better choices. And that was a pivotal point. And from that point on, it was a slog to pay that debt off.

Kim Curtis (07:19):

But I did that within a 10-year timeframe. And today, a CEO of a wealth management firm, multimillion-dollar wealth management firm, it’s like, wow, we all have the ability to change and make a difference and understand money better.

Stephanie McCullough (07:33):

And I think that taking ownership and deciding that you were in the driver’s seat is so critical for people in a lot of areas.

Kim Curtis (07:40):

Absolutely.

Kevin Gaines (07:41):

So, fast forward a little bit, as Stephanie said in the introduction, multi book writer, what inspired you to say, “Hey, let me put this in print.”

Kim Curtis (07:52):

Yeah, that is a fantastic question because many of us want to be authors. I’m sure a lot of the listeners want to be authors. And I wanted to be an author. I didn’t know that I would be an author. And it took me 10 years of talking about it before I finally said just do.

Kim Curtis (08:08):

And believe it or not, I was supposed to be on a business trip, and I canceled it and stayed home. And we had a tree house at the time with our kids. And I went up into the tree house, brought the cord, had it go up with my laptop, and I wrote my first book, Money Secrets, Keys to Smart Investing in five days.

Stephanie McCullough (08:24):

Whoa.

Kim Curtis (08:25):

And the reason … yeah, five days. And now obviously it took a lot longer in terms of editing and other things, but I just downloaded it, and I was so thrilled, I was so passionate about it, because Money Secrets pulls back the curtain on the financial services industry to reveal why smart people make bad investment mistakes. And I just felt like it was a book that had to get out into the world to investors, and it won four book awards.

Stephanie McCullough (08:51):

Nice.

Kim Curtis (08:52):

And it was a bestseller on Amazon. So, I’m really proud of that book. That book really made a difference to people as it relates to how they take control and it kind of gave them armor. So, then when they went to interview advisors, they knew the right questions to ask.

Stephanie McCullough (09:07):

I love that idea of pulling back the curtain because the industry does feel very opaque and exclusive. Even to me, when I first started, it didn’t feel like I belonged. It felt like there was a club going on and I wasn’t part of it. And what’s your takeaway on the whole secrets idea? Why did you name it that?

Kim Curtis (09:28):

Well, there is a club and as a woman with a legal background and finance, I’m very aware that the languaging was not one for me. I think that money was created as a means of exchange, but it was created by men.

Kim Curtis (09:42):

And so, there’s a reason it takes women a little longer to lean in and take responsibility for that. Women love (at least from my experience), to talk about financial planning because their children and their parents and how to take care of aging parents, but money for whatever reason seems to feel like too much where men seem to be more interested in that. I’m not sure if you guys have had that same experience.

Stephanie McCullough (10:06):

Oh yes. Totally.

Kevin Gaines (10:08):

Well, yeah. I mean, it’s a very simple thing. As a man working with other men, the money conversation dominates over the planning in more than a few cases. It’s not even subtle. It’s clearly a way of keeping score. And that’s a huge shift in working with clients of it’s all great to have this to set a new high score, but what are you going to do with it?

Kevin Gaines (10:33):

And then all of a sudden men are exposed like, oh crap. So, all this stuff she’s talking about, I probably — oh, that actually kind of makes sense now. So, we’re actually not served by our approach. At least in the situations I’ve come across. Far be it for me to generalize.

Kim Curtis (10:54):

I appreciate that. I think the key, and you probably agree with me, is that you need money investments and planning together.

Kevin Gaines (11:02):

Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (11:02):

Totally.

Kim Curtis (11:03):

Not one over the other. Both in balance. And I think that that imbalance conversation is a thread that goes through a lot of different things around the idea of money and how we approach money.

Stephanie McCullough (11:13):

So, you mentioned that money was created by men, but we’ve also talked about how that the language around it feels very kind of male and excludes women. Can you give us a couple examples?

Kim Curtis (11:26):

GDP, gross domestic product. I mean, all of those inflation, deflation. I mean, they’re so weird. And nothing. I’m sure that you have a lot that you could say, but that’s just really quick off the top of my head that is-

Stephanie McCullough (11:45):

Yeah. Doesn’t-

Kim Curtis (11:46):

Strange.

Stephanie McCullough (11:47):

Feel meaningful.

Kim Curtis (11:48):

Right. Yeah. It has nothing to do with me personally as a human.

Stephanie McCullough (11:53):

Right. Oh yeah.

Kevin Gaines (11:54):

So, what terms do you like that deal with you as a human?

Kim Curtis (11:59):

Anything that deals with life and purpose and passion and joy. When I think about why are we here, people come to us because they want their money managed. And our job is to tie that to a financial plan.

Kim Curtis (12:11):

If we do that well, then we create the peace of mind for them, which gives them lifestyle. Because money is frenetic, it’s all over. We put it down here as that foundation so that they could actually breathe. Whew, I did it. I’ve been slogging all my life. I could finally step off. Wow.

Kim Curtis (12:29):

And when they get that peace of mind and breathe, they finally get to that pinnacle. If we were just looking at a pyramid and we just went up four levels, that pyramid is impact or fulfillment or significant or legacy. Whatever works for you, the listener.

Kim Curtis (12:45):

But otherwise, we’re just little hamsters on a wheel without any purpose. So, that’s what I think conversations around money should be, is really about what do you want, who do you want to be and how do we help you get there? Not only you individually, but your collective. Your collective is your family, your community, for many cultures and beyond.

Stephanie McCullough (13:11):

Absolutely. How does this money, these various buckets of money, support what you want to do? That’s the much more important measure than scorekeeping or comparing yourself to others.

Kim Curtis (13:22):

Yeah. I forget whose quote this is, but you may tell me who it is. There’s no amount of rate of return that can create an extraordinary life.

Stephanie McCullough (13:31):

Yeah. Totally.

Kim Curtis (13:34):

And I think that is why we do what we do.

Stephanie McCullough (13:38):

I have met so many women who say — I explain to them what I do, and they say, oh, I could never do that. I’m bad at math. I was like, math, I’ve got calculators and I’ve got computers. I understand the math. I don’t do it in my head. I do the people part.

Kim Curtis (13:52):

That’s true. And again, qualitative, and quantitative, you need both.

Stephanie McCullough (13:57):

Oh sure. Yeah. They have to support each other.

Kim Curtis (14:00):

So, not to be misinterpreted by that, because as we talked earlier, I’m a geek head as well, but yet I could have that conversation on the other side and understand how it fits in.

Stephanie McCullough (14:09):

Do you have another secret from the Money Secrets book to share?

Kim Curtis (14:13):

I got a lot of them.

Kevin Gaines (14:15):

You got a whole book’s worth.

Kim Curtis (14:17):

Exactly. But I think back in the time when the book was written, it talks about what is a fiduciary first. How do you go through the languaging of fee-based and fee-only and commission, and what does that really look like and mean?

Kim Curtis (14:31):

So, one of the secrets is that you may not be well-served in an environment where the conflicts are disparate to what your objectives are. And I talk about, I mean, when you go into a grocery store, you have things on the shelf at eye level, and they pay more for that to be at eye level.

Stephanie McCullough (14:48):

Yes.

Kim Curtis (14:48):

It’s similar in our industry for certain firms to have access to those registered representatives. And so, the book kind of really explains that in a really simple way so that clients understand what’s the first thing that you need to look for someone who works, sits at the same side of the table as you and has no conflicts of interest. And you know what I mean, practically?

Stephanie McCullough (15:09):

Yes.

Kim Curtis (15:09):

As it relates to that.

Stephanie McCullough (15:10):

As few as possible and disclosed if they’re there.

Kevin Gaines (15:13):

Yeah. I mean, because that’s a key point. There’s always conflicts. It’s just making sure you understand what your advisor’s conflicts are and hoping that they understand what the conflicts are. Because we’ve come across more than a couple advisors that say, “Oh, I have no conflicts.” It’s like that’s not exactly true. You just saying that as part of your sales spiel? Or are you just unaware?

Kim Curtis (15:40):

It could be both.

Stephanie McCullough (15:41):

It could be both.

Kim Curtis (15:44):

And also, the book talks about how we show up around money oftentimes has nothing to do with us, but it’s generations before us. It could be your great-granddad who is a tightwad and that behavior is showing up in you.

Kim Curtis (15:58):

And so, we call it Human graphics in our firm, humanity on a graph, where you plot kind of family tree structure. You plot the structure like a family tree, and then you work your way up and then down as far back as they can go, whether they can go great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents.

Kim Curtis (16:14):

And we talk about when did they come to this country? What were their occupations? And then you can kind of go into black sheep, who had the money, who didn’t. Did you talk about money in your household?

Kim Curtis (16:25):

What were those conversations? How did your mom or your parents act? And it allows you to then, without them just telling you stories, get an idea of what their beliefs are and their values.

Kim Curtis (16:37):

And so, the book talks about how to do that for themselves to kind of understand why they’re showing up or why they’re saying certain things about money because we all have money receptors, we don’t realize that our body, we have all these little receptors that we don’t recognize that when we see a hot … I was about to say Porsche, but my son would say Ferrari and he looks at it like success. Wow. That’s awesome.

Kim Curtis (17:05):

And I look at it like, who would spend that much money on a vehicle? So, that’s his map compared to my map. And yet someone asking for money on the street corner, do you cross the street? What is your receptor around that? And then unpack that. And I think that’s the starting point on understanding beliefs besides the ancestral line.

Stephanie McCullough (17:29):

Yeah. I love that. We’re often talking about, just starting to notice those patterns of what pops into your head or how you feel when certain things happen or if you have to make a decision, you get that anxiety in your gut and just beginning to notice that is a very helpful step, I think.

Kim Curtis (17:45):

Really true. Really true.

Stephanie McCullough (17:47):

So, then tell us about your next book Retirement Secrets.

Kim Curtis (17:51):

Yeah, I’ll tell that quickly. I had a client that — Retirement Secrets: Keys to Retiring Happy, Healthy & Free. And this book is really a fun book. It has cartoons through it, it has lots of client stories, and it’s really a lifestyle book of you worked all … when you finally get to the day that you step off, what do you do next?

Kim Curtis (18:09):

So, there is a money section in there that’s small, but it’s really about how do you live your best life in the next 30 years. And so, there’s a lot of interviews and examples of clients and others of how they learned how to have a successful retirement because it’s not natural.

Kim Curtis (18:27):

And one of the biggest secrets in that is that your new job from what you left is exercise.

Stephanie McCullough (18:33):

Oh wow.

Kim Curtis (18:34):

Your new job is just like an old job is to exercise at least for ideally five days a week. And that’s both strength training and cardio to kind of get the junk out of you and clear your arteries and other things. But that was very clear to me as I did research on it, that exercise to keep your bodies. Because you could be in retirement and if you’re not healthy, then what does it matter if you can’t move and be able to go places? So, that’s a big, big, big one that stood out more than anything.

Kim Curtis (19:05):

And the other is community. Having a community of people. If you think of the pandemic and people three years being isolated, how many of your clients really didn’t do well during that time?

Stephanie McCullough (19:16):

Yeah, that was rough.

Kim Curtis (19:17):

Because of the isolation. It was rough. So, I talk about relationship circles. You have a ring around you. And that first ring is intimacy. And then you have another ring.

Kim Curtis (19:28):

And the next is a circle of friendship, and we all kind of can identify what that friendship looks like. And then the next one is participation. You go to church together or you play tennis together or do different things.

Kim Curtis (19:40):

And then the last one is the circle of exchange. That’s the outer ring. And that’s oftentimes where we start because the exchange is delivering of services. So, that’s where we start. And depending on the effectiveness of you and your ability to have relationships, if you’re lucky enough, you move into that relationship circle in a different place.

Kim Curtis (20:03):

So, I think that is the key depending on your comfort level, that makes a really remarkable advisor, a practitioner in financial advice, is one that understands those relationship circles and knows where they want to fit in.

Kevin Gaines (20:18):

That’s good.

Stephanie McCullough (20:20):

Yeah, I like that. And I feel like we’ve had this conversation, as you mentioned, with folks who were asking for this book. You step off, you retire, you leave this work that took so much time and passion, and it was a lot of source of your identity and your relationships.

Stephanie McCullough (21:36):

And now, I mean, kind of the old model and maybe a lot of people still, it’s from a hundred to zero in one day. And then what? And how do you go about intentionally reconstructing some of those things?

Kim Curtis (20:49):

Really true. Because otherwise, if you don’t and you’re not intentional, Stephanie, what happens is depression. There’s gray divorce, there is dependency, like one mate just depends on the other mate for activities or meals or otherwise.

Kim Curtis (21:06):

And if I were to do another D it would be drunkenness. Happy hour comes a lot sooner than otherwise if you’re not intentional about that. And there are studies on that if you’re not careful to actually pay attention to that. And then of course, the big B is boredom.

Stephanie McCullough (21:23):

Boredom, yeah. We just had an episode, back episode 71 with Gretchen, and she talked about how she went through a period of depression as retirement got closer for her. And luckily, she was able to get therapy quickly and pull herself to the other side of it. But she’s very open about how difficult it was, even though she thought it was exciting to take this early retirement package. Then facing the reality of it was a bit like, oh gosh, now what?

Kim Curtis (21:53):

Well, and I think there are gender issues and Kevin can probably speak to this, when I think of men who have a lot more identity in their work and perhaps maybe less friendships if we think about that circle of relationships. So, for them, they really have to work hard to expand that circle of relationships where women may not identify as much to their job and may already have a community of people around them. So, I don’t know, Kevin, what do you think?

Kevin Gaines (22:22):

I think that’s just absolutely something to consider. And even more so, even if you think you have all these friends, are they work friends that once you step away, it’s harder to stay in contact. And next thing you know, you don’t have any friends. Even though it’s like, well I talk to these people all the time. What happened? It’s like you don’t see them anymore, they’re still working, or they retire and move away and you’re still slogging around in nine to five. But retirement is … Stephanie, we’ve been saying this for how many episodes now, Stephanie? Retirement’s more just like-

Stephanie McCullough (23:00):

70 some.

Kevin Gaines (23:01):

70 some. It’s not an end goal, it’s just shifting gears is all it is. And if you view it as an event, you might be setting yourself up for all of these issues that you’ve just discussed for us.

Stephanie McCullough (23:19):

On the community thing, I always noticed when my kids were younger, the moms at the bus stop who didn’t leave the neighborhood to go to work every day, they knew each other. They had connections and they were doing things together. And then the working moms kind of hung out together because we didn’t have those deep connections and we didn’t feel that community as much.

Stephanie McCullough (23:42):

So, I do wonder as someone who’s worked through my whole adult life, if and when I leave that behind or I’ll change that, thinking about how do I ramp down, not that I’m anywhere near clients, don’t worry. But when it comes along, is there a way to try to make it a glide path slowly out of working as opposed to a cliff?

Stephanie McCullough (24:03):

And we talk about this with clients a lot too. How can they maybe structure something or have something else waiting for them that would still be of interest and help their sense of fulfillment and community and maybe earn some money if that’s important as well. But thinking ahead is important.

Kim Curtis (24:21):

In Retirement Secrets, there is a section on retirement mapping that has over 500 activities to do possibly in retirement. So, a person that’s reading the book can actually go through strike, strike, strike, strike, strike. I used to do this as a kid. This is a hobby I loved, but stopped for whatever reason, playing the guitar or whatever. And you can identify and then prioritize what those activities are to help give you a jumpstart into what you may find passionate again or for the first time.

Stephanie McCullough (24:52):

That’s really helpful. I like that. And then tell us about Happiness Doesn’t Retire.

Kim Curtis (24:55):

Who doesn’t want that. Right?

Stephanie McCullough (25:56):

Totally.

Kim Curtis (25:57):

We retire, we want happiness and so on Instagram for your listeners, if they go to Happiness Doesn’t Retire, we have this, it’s a sticker or a magnet. And to be able to, when you’re living your life filled with joy to be able to hold up a flag or hold up a sticker when you’re doing what you love. And then, so that came out of Retirement Secrets. We talk about Happiness Doesn’t Retire in the book and it’s kind of a movement of how do we express it and what is it that we do that does give us that. And to be able to share that with others. Thank you for asking.

Stephanie McCullough (25:36):

And probably the giant range of things that encompasses.

Kim Curtis (25:40):

Really true, really true. The idea came from, we rented an RV, and we took my mom and her aging brother. Well, we met her aging brother in this RV, and when they got together they danced and he was in a wheelchair. So, my mom just kind of circled him around and danced and the joy that they had.

Stephanie McCullough (26:02):

That’s awesome. Love it.

Kim Curtis (26:04):

That’s Happiness Doesn’t Retire.

Stephanie McCullough (26:06):

Yeah. That’s fun.

Kevin Gaines (26:07):

So, what were some of the more interesting posts that you’ve seen?

Kim Curtis (26:08):

On the Happiness Doesn’t Retire?

Kevin Gaines (26:09):

On the Happiness Doesn’t Retire, yeah.

Kim Curtis (26:13):

On the Instagram page. Well, I tend to be magnetically attracted to the water posts. So, on their boat where they either have the flag or they’re holding it. We had one person have a flag and he went into the waterfalls and the waterfalls is coming down on him and he is holding the flag. I can’t even imagine his safety that he had to do to get to that place. So, I thought that was ingenious.

Kim Curtis (26:38):

One of them, I live in Denver, Colorado, and we have Red Rocks, it’s a natural concert venue. And they do yoga on the rocks. And so, all these people with yoga mats and they had a bag that had Happiness Doesn’t Retire with their little towel. And you could see all these people doing downward dog in the picture and with the bag. And it had so much color, it was vibrant. So, it just brought a lot of energy to the picture. So, I thought that was great.

Stephanie McCullough (27:07):

That’s awesome.

Kim Curtis (27:08):

Yeah, sometimes it’s just in front of a good book and they put it over the book to see, this is happiness, reading my favorite book.

Stephanie McCullough (27:18):

That sounds good to me.I have a bit of a different question for you, Kim. Since you and I both came to this career, not as our first career, I believe that financial planning is an amazing career and profession for women and that we need more women doing it. What do you feel on that?

Kim Curtis (27:36):

Yes. I haven’t looked at the statistic lately, but I think that only 25% of the profession are women and not even women of color. And we could take that into different places that the whole profession is really missing diversity in that area. I believe that it is a profession that could provide so much in our … we generally are to serve. In our culture, we’re indoctrinated to be of service. The women are.

Stephanie McCullough (28:08):

Yeah.

Kim Curtis (28:09):

And so, what a great way to do that, that is financially rewarding, and you make a difference in the world. It’s kind of like the pebble dropped into the water and that ripple just goes and goes and goes and goes. And so, that person in front of you that you’re changing their life will hopefully change their children’s life and their grandchildren’s and their great grandchildren’s that will make a better family structure that’s more secure and has freedom.

Kim Curtis (28:34):

And I just think wow, great, great, great field to get into. And I would encourage any woman and us as mentors to help them. And men to help the women as well, mentoring them in the field.

Stephanie McCullough (28:45):

What do you think are the key skills?

Kim Curtis (28:48):

Kevin may have a different opinion than I do. I think self-awareness is a big, big, and that happens as you get older. But the more self-aware you are of yourself; I think the more you can hold your ground for down markets and the volatility of the capital markets.

Kim Curtis (29:06):

I think the ability to show compassion and resilience, I think the ability to articulate clearly and have empathy. I believe that to be able to go left brain, right brain, be able to talk to the guy in the room and the female in the room and bring them together on the same page. My mediation skills come in very handy because couples have — what’s the number one thing couples argue over? Well, maybe number two. Maybe number two. We all could guess what we think the number one is. Yeah. So anyway.

Stephanie McCullough (29:43):

Yeah. And yes, left brain, right brain, but you didn’t mention a degree in finance or expertise in math. And yes, we can learn these things.

Kevin Gaines (29:54):

Or ability to pick stocks.

Stephanie McCullough (29:55):

Gosh, no.

Kevin Gaines (29:57):

I mean, none of this-

Kim Curtis (29:59):

Absolutely not stock picking.

Kevin Gaines (30:00):

None of this stuff is needed. And for the record, I would agree with everything you said, Kim.

Kim Curtis (30:05):

Thank you, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (30:06):

I never did convince my husband’s uncle before he passed that I wasn’t a stockbroker. I could not make him understand it.

Kevin Gaines (30:16):

I have one client who still calls me his broker.

Stephanie McCullough (30:20):

Okay then.

Kevin Gaines (30:22):

It’s not what I do. It’s not the conversations we have. There’s nothing in our relationship that says stockbroker. But that’s the term he knows and that’s the term he uses.

Stephanie McCullough (30:30):

But that is one of the troubles I think with the industry is that it’s very difficult for an average person looking to hire a financial professional to understand the differences between what we do because we can call ourselves whatever we want. I can call myself a wealth manager, a financial planner, a financial advisor, queen of the universe, anything. There’s not really a restriction on what I can call myself. And it doesn’t mean that I do my work the same exact way as everyone else who gives themselves that title. That’s a problem to me.

Kim Curtis (30:59):

Yeah. I think the evolution of the industry will change into a profession similar. I mean, think of even when we started, all the different silos that existed and the word broker is waning. That industry is every year less and less people are in that industry and going to independent, registered investment advisory firms. And with AI, the ability to understand money in terms of investing, ultimately it kind of already is, but a commodity.

Stephanie McCullough (31:28):

Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (31:28):

Yes.

Kim Curtis (31:29):

So, if in fact money through AI can be enhanced, but we have behavioral finance that create, I mean success and failure, which is why it’s so important for us to do what we do. And I don’t handle my own money for that very reason. My firm does, not me. They keep me away from it. For even the experts in the business, have to be aware and careful because we all have those biases.

Stephanie McCullough (31:56):

Right. The human kind of just the way our brains are wired around it, it’s not for success, that’s for sure.

Kim Curtis (32:05):

Right.

Kevin Gaines (32:05):

I mean, just for a little context as we’re talking about this investing, there is one of the most famous investors around today was given an interview a while ago, and they were … it was just an interview about investing. And their point was, even the pros get a lot of stuff wrong. So, I mean, and he made a point, he’s like, yes, “I have about a 65% success rate of the investments I make, but it’s because I’m willing to stay in these investments for so long, for years upon years, upon years,” which as we all know is not very easy to do as you’re looking at stuff in the red.

Kevin Gaines (32:42):

The point being, there’s not for the people who still have this image of brokers, or I’m going to be picking all these stocks and making all these winners. The real professionals have a lot of failure in this. So, if it’s that hard, why is that going to be the key part of what you’re doing? If it’s really not much better than a coin flip of being right or wrong. Let’s talk about the stuff we can control, the stuff that we can actually truly influence. I mean, and I think that’s a part that gets missed when people go back to, I want to go in this profession because I’m going to do this, this, this, or I don’t want to go into this industry because that stuff doesn’t interest me. We don’t talk about that stuff because frankly it’s less important than the stuff we do talk about.

Kim Curtis (33:33):

Absolutely. And that’s a really good example of the gender issues in terms of stock picking is sexy. It’s like fast and kind of aggressive a little bit, where when you don’t talk, when it’s not stock picking and it’s turbocharged indexing or evidence-based investing, it’s boring.

Kim Curtis (33:52):

And I think marketing wise over the last 50 years back, that was how the profession was created. Where you have to create a, what’s the pain point here, let me fix it. I’m smarter than you, I can do that. And who did that quote that, why would I take advice from someone who took the train of the subway into the office when I’m driving my, let’s say a Lamborghini, from a young Wall Street broker? Why would I take advice from this person when I’m the one that’s had the success?

Kevin Gaines (34:30):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (34:32):

Morgan Housel posted the other day, he’s the author of The Psychology of Money. He said “there are three legal investment strategies. Number one, be smarter than others. Number two, be luckier than others. Number three, be more patient than others. That’s the whole list.” So, I mean-

Kim Curtis (34:48):

I would probably add one more. Own it all.

Stephanie McCullough (34:52):

Right. And then you’ve got to be patient, right?

Kim Curtis (34:54):

definitely. Of course. Yeah. And he’s doing more of the psychology than the actual practical.

Stephanie McCullough (34:58):

Yeah.

Kim Curtis (34:59):

So, that’s cool. Yeah. It’s a long-term game.

Stephanie McCullough (35:02):

Yeah. But I do love sharing with folks the reality of behavioral finance and the science showing that human beings make money mistakes. Not you, Miss Client, who feels such guilt and shame for that time that you overdrew your account, or you spent more than you meant to. That’s not a character flaw. That’s actually scientifically provable a human being thing that it does cause us problems. And it’s something that the whole species faces.

Kim Curtis (35:30):

Especially after Amazon Prime Day.

Stephanie McCullough (35:33):

See my shiny new microphone I got on Amazon Prime Day.

Kim Curtis (35:42):

Yeah. We’re creatures. And that’s in a whole ‘nother conversation in terms of marketing and what works and what doesn’t. And how is that changing?

Stephanie McCullough (35:50):

Yeah. Interesting. Oh, my goodness. Well, as you can tell, we could go on and on for days, but we’ll spare everyone this time around. We might have to have Kim back for more conversation. Kim, how can people find you?

Kim Curtis (36:02):

Wealthlegacyinstitute.com is our advisory firm. But @happinessdoesntretire, Instagram-

Stephanie McCullough (36:13):

Love it.

Kim Curtis (36:14):

And financialliteracypress.com. And I think we have some free giveaways there that may be helpful to the listener. I think we have the 10 laws of money every investor should know. And I think we have some tax tips every investor should know. And also, there’s an aging parents guide-

Stephanie McCullough (36:29):

Oh, perfect.

Kim Curtis (36:30):

That my sister and I put together that even in the business you make mistakes and it’s really granular, like creating a playlist of your parents’ favorite music that they can listen to when they no longer can perhaps articulate what their needs are. So, things like that are in that aging parents’ guide and they can find it there for free.

Stephanie McCullough (36:46):

Oh, excellent. That’s really in line with the conversation we’re having soon with Carol, right Kevin?

Kevin Gaines (36:54):

Yes.

Kim Curtis (36:54):

Perfect.

Stephanie McCullough (36:55):

Yep. Awesome. Alright, thanks so much, Kim. We appreciate your time. Thank you.

Kevin Gaines (36:58):

Thank you.

Stephanie McCullough (37:04):

Well, Kevin, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Kim as much as I did. One of the things she said that really hit me was talking about the magnitude of our responsibility with clients and also the self-management that she’s learned as she’s matured in the profession. I really like that.

Kevin Gaines (37:23):

Yes, that’s important. What I really appreciated her sharing was her money failure, or at least what she views as her money failure. We did a whole episode of us talking about it. And I think it’s extremely important for people to realize everybody makes these mistakes.

Kevin Gaines (37:44):

It gets back to our talking about behavioral finance, it’s human nature to do this stuff. I’ve done it, you’ve done it. Everybody does it. So, don’t feel compelled, oh, I can’t talk to a financial advisor because I think I’ve done this stuff wrong. Or that these people, when it comes to money, they know everything and they do it right all the time. Hell no. We’re just going to have conversations.

Stephanie McCullough (38:10):

And that she shared her feelings of shame as a kid at having to use the free lunch ticket. And that stayed in her mind and has affected how she deals with money. We’ve all got those early memories or early messages, and different people will take different lessons from the same experience, but it’s valuable to spend some time looking at your own kind of money story, your beliefs that you carry around and where they came from. So, you can decide, maybe this one I can try to let go. Easier said than done of course.

Stephanie McCullough (38:44):

But another thing she said that I really … I wrote this down, is when your head’s in the sand around money, you’re in denial in a lot of other areas too. It’s like, ooh, that one. Of course, I’m thinking of a few people, they’re decidedly by choice, keeping their head in the sand because they’re so scared at what they might see. But as we believe that finding some support so that you can feel comfortable taking those steps, opening your eyes, and taking a look is going to serve you much better.

Kevin Gaines (39:17):

Yes. Yeah. And it’s about awareness. It really is. If you’re willing to be aware of what’s going on, we can address the good and the bad. But if you’re ignoring it, very rarely will it ever just magically resolve itself. More times than not, it’s just going to become a bigger issue. And that’s something we can all be better about.

Stephanie McCullough (39:42):

I liked her point that your new job once you retire from your main career is exercise. I had not heard someone put it quite that starkly before, but anytime you’re looking at health, one of the things that’s going to help any of the areas of health is exercise, movement, not being sedentary. This is something I have to start working on.

Kevin Gaines (40:03):

Well, I mean, think about it Stephanie. The conversations when we’re talking with clients is how long are you going to live? Well, there’s a hell of a big difference between how long you’re going to live and how long you’re going to be healthy and doing things. And if you’re retired for five years to do fun stuff and then for whatever reason or reasons you spend the next 15 years because you’re infirmed, yeah, fine, you lived a long time, but that vision of retirement is not the one that you were planning for. So, you need to make sure you can stay, like you said, healthy enough that you can do what you’ve been planning to do all along. Is that the-

Stephanie McCullough (40:51):

And of course, we don’t have control over all these things, but-

Kevin Gaines (40:55):

No, absolutely not.

Stephanie McCullough (40:56):

The things that we can control. I don’t know. Kevin, are you doing enough exercise?

Kevin Gaines (41:01):

In case my doctor is listening, let’s say, yes. Just in case.

Stephanie McCullough (41:08):

Just in case.

Kevin Gaines (41:09):

Just in case.

Stephanie McCullough (41:10):

We hope you enjoyed this conversation with a very dynamic woman financial planner. And please take to heart if you know anybody thinking about career changes or young people thinking about careers, Kim and I would love to speak to women about how cool it is to be a financial planner. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (41:27):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (41:31):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (41:46):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.