Pat Fenner (00:00):

I just feel like I can get up from this conversation and go down to a park and spend the rest of the day in the park. I just don’t have anybody I have to check in with and-

Stephanie McCullough (00:11):

Answer to, compromise with?

Pat Fenner (00:13):

Compromise with. I know this … if you’re listening, you might be saying, “That sounds so selfish.” And there’s a part of it that sounds selfish to me, but I gave 37 years to a marriage, I raised five kids, I did the selfless giving thing.

Stephanie McCullough (00:28):

Yes, and then some.

Pat Fenner (00:30):

And you can ask my kids, I still help them. I’ll come babysit, I’ll go out to lunch with you. I’ll pay even, it’s fine. I’m still giving, but it’s on my terms. And honestly, I wish I didn’t have to get divorced to live this way.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:52):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:27):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:17):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:28):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:29):

Today, we’re talking to Pat Fenner. Pat, as you’ll learn, is a business owner, a podcaster, an author, but she’s also a woman who went through and survived gray divorce. So, we are actually doing a little revisit of our divorce series from a couple of years back, with this real divorce story from Pat Fenner.

Stephanie McCullough (02:51):

Pat’s new book, Rebuilding Your Life After A Gray Divorce: A Path to Healing Significance and Joy is out now and she’s going to share some of her wisdom that she shares both in that and her podcast called Silver Women Bright Future. Let’s dive into our conversation with Pat.

Stephanie McCullough (03:12):

Pat Fenner, we’re so excited to have you. Welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Pat Fenner (03:15):

Oh, thank you, Stephanie. I am so excited to be here too, this is great. And Kevin, too, it’s nice to meet you, and I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Stephanie McCullough (03:23):

Awesome. So, the reason we decided we needed to talk to you and share the conversation with our listeners was because a couple years ago we did a kind of a mini-series on divorce, and the things that need to be considered if someone’s going through it or has gone through it. And the unique perspective that you bring is on what’s kind of known as gray divorce. First of all, let’s define what the heck is gray divorce?

Pat Fenner (03:48):

Yeah, gray divorce. It’s not a how your life looks bleak (it’s not like that), but although you do go through that — it’s divorce that happens typically to women over 50 with more than 10 years of marriage. I don’t know why 10 years seems to be the mark, but that’s just the understood definition of it, but it’s primarily the age over 50.

Stephanie McCullough (04:12):

Interesting. So, what (from your perspective that you’ve obviously experienced but also seen with others) are the unique challenges that come to women in gray divorce?

Pat Fenner (04:23):

Well, one of the things is usually, so in the day and time that we are recording this, women over 50 are typically boomers or mostly boomers. We’re still a great group out there. And stereotypically, but often, we have not spent time in the workplace, we took time off to raise our families.

Pat Fenner (04:45):

If we worked, it was maybe occasional jobs or part-time jobs or things like that, but we weren’t driven by our careers. And that’s not a value judgment there on that, that’s what happened. The problem with that is once you get to be over 50, 60 (like when people are thinking of retirement and traveling, spending time with their grandkids and things like that), all of a sudden, you are not a couple. And additionally, you have to provide for your income. All of a sudden, you’ve got to do this.

Pat Fenner (05:14):

So, what happened with me and with a lot of people that I’ve talked to is they don’t feel like they have any marketable skills. And even though ageism is illegal (put that out there), it’s a common problem. How do I get a job? When I was first divorced, I felt like I’m going to end up being a greeter at Walmart. Which, nothing bad to those people, but that’s not what I wanted for myself.

Pat Fenner (05:42):

So, there’s this big hit to your self-image. So, you’re not only not part of a couple anymore, but now you’re unemployable. Where am I going to live? Some people do get like the house in the divorce settlement, but we had moved twice before I was divorced. And I didn’t have the home to get. We had to sell the house and then often, because you have no employment history, I couldn’t even rent an apartment because I didn’t have two years of W-2 income to show.

Stephanie McCullough (06:15):

Oh, my goodness.

Pat Fenner (06:17):

Talk about that’s a big hit to your self-esteem, to your ego. I’d left a very nice home and couldn’t get a slummy apartment even. Those are kind of, I think, unique. We don’t have the stress of trying to provide for our kids, younger kids.

Stephanie McCullough (06:35):

If there are kids, they’re usually launched at this point.

Pat Fenner (06:38):

Exactly. And that turned out to be a blessing for me because I spent quite a bit of time with my oldest daughter living with them while I was getting back on my feet.

Stephanie McCullough (06:48):

Oh, my goodness. Even just logistically, I didn’t think about that a renter would not be interested in talking to you if you don’t have an earnings history.

Pat Fenner (06:59):

Let me tell you, Stephanie, that was news to me. And even though I can understand it, having owned rental income (years ago my husband and I did that), you’re still reeling from the divorce, and then you have to be reminded of that.

Stephanie McCullough (07:14):

Let’s talk specifically about that hit to the self-image and the emotional toll that takes, because I know that’s a big part of what stops people from kind of moving forward.

Pat Fenner (07:26):

In one of your previous divorce episodes, you’d mentioned or you had a guest mention that most of the time divorce is initiated by the woman. Especially in gray divorce, because we don’t have the kids to take care of anymore, and stereotypically, we’re like, “Okay, is this all there is?”

Pat Fenner (07:44):

In my case (and I have met other people, so I know I’m not alone in this), my ex-husband presented it after years of going through counseling. And so, it was a surprise, but it wasn’t a surprise. And he had already met someone else and was ready to move into that relationship.

Pat Fenner (08:09):

So, the reason I mention that is, to your question about the hit, that also adds all of the, “Wasn’t I good enough for you? We’ve been working on this. What about all the work I put into this? What’s going on?” And then find out about the unfaithfulness. It hits you in a lot of places.

Pat Fenner (08:29):

Let me just pause here for a second because I don’t want any of your listeners feeling bad for me. It was a rough journey; things are great. Okay? This is my story.

Stephanie McCullough (08:39):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Fenner (08:40):

But in addition to that, you’re feeling like, “What’s the matter? Wasn’t I good enough for you?” In addition to that, I was solidly in that sandwich season where even when the kids were in high school, just before they were all launched, I was taking care of my ex-in-laws. One of them was living with us, and the other one was in independent retirement, but she was nearby. And they both passed at the same year our youngest left for college.

Stephanie McCullough (09:11):

Wow, that’s a lot.

Pat Fenner (09:13):

It’s a lot, it was a lot. And I thought we’d had this understanding we would be moving back to where I had some connections and stuff like that after all those things happened, and my ex-husband all of a sudden was backing up, and he was like, “I don’t really want to move, I like our house.” I’m like, “You’re never there.” He was traveling anyway when he was working.

Pat Fenner (09:38):

So, all those things were happening, and it just took a big hit on my psyche. Additionally, I’m a Christian, and I took those vows for life, and all of a sudden, I was having to revisit that. So, I just kind of took the bull by the horns, and I decided I was going to put the house up for sale, and I did. And it got sold, and he was very angry about it, but we lived.

Kevin Gaines (10:03):

What was he going to do? Divorce you?

Kevin Gaines (10:10):

Well, I got to make sure my wife doesn’t hear this episode so she doesn’t get any ideas.

Pat Fenner (10:13):

Well, Kevin, I’m sure that you haven’t checked out of your marriage, so I don’t think you have anything to worry about. But I mean, he had emotionally checked out, and I really shouldn’t have been surprised by it, but I was.

Stephanie McCullough (10:27):

That’s just … for whatever reason.

Pat Fenner (10:30):

Now, the good thing that came out of this was that prior to my – I loved my in-laws, they were awesome. They were more like parents to me than my parents were really towards the end.

Stephanie McCullough (10:41):

Especially if you had to care for them.

Pat Fenner (10:42):

And shortly, before my father-in-law died, he reconfigured his will so that (there was my husband and his brother, were the only two kids) I got a third of it. And to me, not to husband and me, it’s just to me, he said because he was so grateful. I didn’t know about this at the time while they were doing that, I found this out after he died.

Stephanie McCullough (11:09):

Oh, my goodness.

Pat Fenner (11:10):

And I was touched beyond belief. And then later on, once I got over the grief and realizing I couldn’t even rent and all that stuff, I realized I’d had enough to purchase my own place with his money.

Stephanie McCullough (11:24):

Okay, wait, what was your ex’s reaction when he found out that his father left you money?

Pat Fenner (11:29):

Well, he actually helped because this was before we were going through the divorce, so I think he’s thinking, “Oh great, I get two-thirds of the inheritance,” right?

Stephanie McCullough (11:38):

Uh-huh, right.

Pat Fenner (11:40):

So, he was all on board with it, but then we got the divorce, and then I walked away with the third. So, it was such a blessing. There’s just no other way for me to look at it. A blessing, because I don’t regret taking care of him, but I did not expect that, nor did I expect not being able to find a place to live. So, everything worked out, and to me, it’s really nothing short of a miracle, but anyway, I digress.

Kevin Gaines (12:09):

I do want to go back. Talking about trying to get the renting, and not having the two years of W-2s — when you were getting rejected, what were workarounds suggested (co-signers, for example, or anything like that) that other people going through this who may not have a pool of money to rely on could think about or force themselves to deal with?

Pat Fenner (12:34):

It was suggested to me that one of (since I had all adult kids, well, two of them were still in college, but you know, they were grown) the three that were employed, ask one of them to co-sign for you. And I was really uncomfortable with that because I didn’t want to be burdening them. They’re all just getting started, two of them have young kids.

Pat Fenner (12:59):

I know even when we were putting them through college, we never took out loans, which I’m so grateful that my ex-husband had that foresight. He’s like, “We’re coming up towards retirement, I don’t want to take on student loans at this stage of our life. We’ll help our kids however we can, but I’m not taking on a loan.” And I, at the time, didn’t like that idea. But there was wisdom in it and I’m glad he did that. So, I wasn’t about to put them in that situation too.

Pat Fenner (13:25):

So, those were the suggestions, get one of your kids to cosign. I didn’t have any other family that really would’ve done that, that I’m close to or that’s even in the area, that wasn’t a possibility. And the other one, I had a really snarky landlord telling me, “Well, why don’t you just get a job and come back in two years?” I’m like, “Oh, okay, sure.”

Stephanie McCullough (13:47):

You need to live on the park bench in the meantime?

Kevin Gaines (13:48):

What are you going to do? You just stay in a refrigerator box for two years?

Pat Fenner (13:51):

Let me stay in your pool clubhouse there, I’ll be fine. Fortunately, my oldest daughter has a room in her home, and I stayed there for a while. And I’m really kind of glad that actually that happened because that helped me just get my head together.

Pat Fenner (14:05):

Well, I think Monica, one of your guests, mentioned that she took a trip, and sometimes people can do that. I wasn’t able to do that financially, but staying with my daughter really just kind of helped me. I didn’t have to worry about food. And she’d say, “Mom, don’t worry about contributing. Just live with us, just rest, just think about things and stuff.” And it was super helpful to be able to do that.

Stephanie McCullough (14:28):

That’s great. Just giving yourself some space. Is there a grieving process that you had to go through?

Pat Fenner (14:36):

Yes, there is. And what I thought at the time was grieving the loss of my marriage, what I really was grieving was the loss of what I’d hoped my marriage would have been.

Stephanie McCullough (14:49):

Oh, interesting. Talk about that distinction.

Pat Fenner (14:52):

I don’t know, that happily ever after stuff; we all know marriage is work. And I was willing to put the work in – and my ex did go to counseling, but the thing is that once we’d leave counseling, that’s kind of when all the assignments would fly out the window. The things that you’re supposed to do in between those sessions didn’t get done.

Pat Fenner (15:14):

And I kind of look at it as you can lead a horse to water. If you’re not going to put the work in, you can go to counseling sessions every day and whatever. So, that’s why I say that I should have kind of seen it on the horizon. The mourning was what didn’t happen. And I think there’s always going to be a bit of grieving for that.

Pat Fenner (15:37):

I was married 37 years, I knew him three years before that. I was with him for still longer than half my life. And we had talked about (early on) plans about retirement and where were we going to go, and what were we going to do? And things changed over the years, I guess.

Pat Fenner (15:53):

And I don’t stay too long in that because I can’t do anything about it anymore. And so, periodically, I still do grief. He’s already moved on, he’s got another relationship, he’s inherited another family, and he’s got other kids. He has moved on, but I have to, it just looks different than what I thought it would be.

Stephanie McCullough (16:15):

So, what helped you move to a more positive perspective on this?

Pat Fenner (16:20):

Well, one thing I want to share with your listeners, and this is something that totally blew my mind. So, prior to my divorce, when I was nearing the end of homeschooling, I realized, “Hey, I’m going to have to figure something else out here. So, I started podcasting with a friend of mine who I’d met online, she was another home educator, and for two years, we did this podcast. We loved it, absolutely loved it. It was the greatest time, it was wonderful.

Pat Fenner (16:49):

Meanwhile, I was trying to become some kind of a homeschool coach or just do something with home education. I’m passionate about it and we had a great time, and I loved it and all that stuff. But nothing seemed to be clicking. So, when he presented the papers, and I was like, “Oh my gosh, what am I going to do?”

Pat Fenner (17:09):

I had a friend of mine, she was a business coach, and she approached me, and she said, “I know you’re really stressed out about this. I want you to think about something. Why don’t you think about doing what you’ve been doing just as a pleasure project? Do it for other businesses and charge them.” She said, “You’re good at it.”

Stephanie McCullough (17:27):

Meaning do what?

Pat Fenner (17:28):

Podcast editing. So, I am even now, that’s what pays my bills. I’m a podcast producer, I work for businesses. I’m saying hi to your editor right now.

Stephanie McCullough (17:41):

Hi Zach.

Pat Fenner (17:43):

And I never thought about that. And through friends that we both had in common, I started my business, I got a lot of referrals, I got started. And this was in 2020. This was when things were kind of crazy.

Stephanie McCullough (17:57):

That’s when we started, 2020.

Pat Fenner (18:00):

So, things didn’t take off as much as – I wasn’t pushing it because he hadn’t presented me papers yet. This was still like, “I think this is going to happen, but I don’t want it to happen.” Living in denial, all those stages of grief. But by the time that we were divorced, it was like, “Yeah, this is what I have to do. This is what I’m doing.” So, it turned out wonderful.

Pat Fenner (18:23):

And the reason I want to share that part of my story is that if you’re of a certain age and you have gone through gray divorce, or you’re going through gray divorce, it’s really, really important to sit down, assess, write down on paper all the things you’ve done and you’ve been doing. Whether you enjoy them, whether you’re just good at them — you don’t necessarily enjoy them but you’re good at them, just write.

Pat Fenner (18:47):

There is a boatload of stuff, I can promise you, and it’s all opportunities for you. You don’t know what’s going to work, and you don’t have to know that right now. But even if you have been years and years out of the workforce, you’ve taken the time to raise your kids.

Pat Fenner (19:07):

I don’t regret a second, but there were a lot of skills that I had that I didn’t even think about, and I couldn’t because my mindset was messed up. And you know what? It’s ended up being my income, but I couldn’t have seen that at the time, so, yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (19:26):

I love that. I mean, I have seen many women, even absent divorce, just took time out of the workforce; kids left home, now they’re empty nesters. They think they have no marketable skills, no way to earn income. And a couple of them had ended up – they think all they can do is teach pre-school and lovely, if that’s what your calling is, that’s great.

Stephanie McCullough (19:50):

And my one friend, like, “You have a master’s in English. Yes, it was a few years ago, but you have other things you could do.” She was running her school board and lobbying the state lawmakers. And that’s a lot of experience even though it wasn’t paid, because a lot of women’s work isn’t paid, but yeah. So, I love that.

Pat Fenner (20:08):

You just don’t know. And there’s so much that even by virtue of the age we are, life experience, you’re putting out, and it doesn’t have to be paid, but it’s important, and you can use that. And when you have to, it gives you a little extra motivation.

Kevin Gaines (20:27):

But I would also imagine, at least for some, that it’s like a first step of trying to take control of the situation or doing something constructive, trying to move on. And I don’t know if I’m overstating or overthinking it, but-

Pat Fenner (20:45):

No, you are not. And one of the things is, getting through, and then even having gotten through the divorce, we tend to overthink. It might not always be positive, but we tend to get into that thinking too much and not doing. We’re constantly thinking.

Pat Fenner (21:04):

And one of the other issues that I had a problem with (which I know you’ve mentioned in that series) is the finances. My ex had always been the one to handle the investments. We’d had investment advisors, but he talked to them, and then I met with them once a year. Which I think we all know that there’s a big difference there.

Pat Fenner (21:22):

So, I did have some money — I didn’t show up for myself well in the divorce proceedings, and that’s a whole other story. But I did end up with some investment money, but I had no clue what to do with it. And I had always heard years and years from him, “We need at least 2 million to retire, or a million” (I don’t remember what it was) — at the time, it was something that I couldn’t even imagine.

Pat Fenner (21:45):

We never really talked about; do we really need that? What are our expenses? There was no plan, it was just this big thing. So, I didn’t have anything near that, and I was like, “I’ll never be able to retire. Well, okay then what happens if my business goes down or what?” You’re just thinking, you’re overthinking everything (to your point, Kevin), but nothing productive, nothing moving forward.

Pat Fenner (22:10):

So, I met with a financial advisor in a networking group that I’m part of for my podcast business. And we got to talking one time, and he said, “Why don’t you come over? We can talk about things and your investments, I could give you some ideas and some thoughts, and we can just see how that settles.”

Pat Fenner (22:26):

So, one of the first questions he asked me was, “So, Pat, what do you want to do? What do you picture the next five years after when you retire?” And I looked at him, and I started crying. It was not one of my more professional moments. And I said, “I don’t know, my ex and I … it kind of was always what he wanted, what he imagined, what he thought. And I don’t know what I want.” It was very embarrassing.

Stephanie McCullough (22:55):

No, but it’s so common with women, especially.

Pat Fenner (22:57):

I know. But at the time, you feel like you are the only one. You mentioned the shame with money. Oh, my gosh. And it’s like, “Well, nobody ever taught me.” And the thing is, if anyone came to me about making a lasagna and they’ve never made it, I wouldn’t get onto them for, “How come you don’t know how to make a lasagna? You’re a grown … you know?” Okay, “I’ll show you.” It’s like there’s no judgment there, but to me, to us, we judge ourselves.

Pat Fenner (23:26):

So, one of the ways I overcome that was I am now studying to become … I want to become a financial advisor, I want to coach women who are in my stage of life that have been through a divorce and help them move forward. Life can be wonderful. There is garbage you have to go through, yes, but it can be good. Don’t stay there. So, my kids think it’s a hoot.

Stephanie McCullough (23:51):

Like the quote – oh, do they really?

Pat Fenner (23:54):

Yes. Well, they started out by, “What? You are doing what?” Because I always said I was the people person in the family. My ex was the numbers man, I was the people person. And I am becoming the numbers woman too.

Stephanie McCullough (24:11):

Well, I think the people stuff is more important of financial advisor than the numbers. The numbers, yeah, we got calculators. It’s the people thing that’s more important to me.

Pat Fenner (24:22):

Yes. And I don’t want women to have shame like I did. And I know they will, but I want to help them get through it. How’s that? That’s a better way to put it.

Stephanie McCullough (24:28):

I love it.

Kevin Gaines (24:29):

The reality is it is going to happen, you are going to go through this, you are going to have tears, you are going to have stress and all of these negative feels. But everybody has them, and eventually, you’re going to believe us when we say, “You don’t need to have these, but everybody does.”

Pat Fenner (24:50):

And it’s the same thing for women who (at this age) become widows, who lose their spouse and have never been involved. Please, if you are married, if you have a happy marriage, or if you are married right now and you’re listening to this and you don’t have a clue of what’s going on in your finances, let’s start changing that please, today. Promise yourself to do that. Your future self will be happy for you.

Stephanie McCullough (25:14):

Woo-hoo, I heartily applaud that sentiment.

Kevin Gaines (25:18):

But, Pat, you also said something about the retirement goals that you and your husband had. Now, in your case, it sounded like it was more his goals than your goals. But a lot of times, it’s a joint goal, and then when it’s just one of you, the goals might change, which means the planning possibly needs to change or the strategies. Please comment.

Pat Fenner (25:48):

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. My retirement goals, they changed a lot. Part of it was because I really love what I’m doing, I don’t look at myself as really ever retiring. I want to have a work-optional life. And what I do is remote, so I can do it from anywhere.

Pat Fenner (26:13):

Because my goals now have been, I want to be more involved with my adult kids. I want to be more involved with my three precious, precious grandchildren, and hopefully, more. I want to travel, I want to do things that I always kind of laid to the side because I couldn’t before. But it’s not in acquiring stuff. I am so downscale.

Pat Fenner (26:34):

My kids, they love coming to my house because they’re like – we have these conversations. I’m like, “Do you want this now? Because I really don’t want to wait until I die to give this. If you want this, take it, or let me get rid of it or whatever.” I’m so lean and mean, and I love it. It’s so light, and I just feel like I can get up from this conversation and go down to a park and spend the rest of the day in the park. I just don’t have anybody I have to check in with and-

Stephanie McCullough (27:02):

Answer to, compromise with?

Pat Fenner (27:04):

Compromise with. I know this … if you’re listening, you might be saying, “That sounds so selfish.” And there’s a part of it that sounds selfish to me, but I gave 37 years to a marriage, I raised five kids, I did the selfless giving thing.

Stephanie McCullough (27:22):

Yes, and then some.

Pat Fenner (27:24):

And then some. And you can ask my kids, I still help them. I’ll come babysit, I’ll go out to lunch with you, I’ll pay even, it’s fine. I’m still giving, but it’s on my terms. And it’s my terms, and it’s just a whole different ball game. And honestly, I wish I didn’t have to get divorced to live this way.

Pat Fenner (27:46):

And that’s part of the grieving. I wish I had a spouse who could have been encouraging in me growing and discovering areas I wanted to grow in. But that’s not the case, and so, oh, well, I can’t sit and stew about it, it doesn’t help anybody. And that’s why I wrote my book too, because I just don’t want people to sit and stew in it. There are things you can do to move forward, and it’s important that we do them.

Stephanie McCullough (28:17):

And I totally get that little inner voice in our heads that’s saying we’re selfish, and I don’t believe it. I push back on that. Now, I can’t quite practice what I preach, but I think the world is going to be a better place if more women are doing what lights them up, and taking that walk in the park, and really feeding their soul and what gives them fire. That can only help the world, in my opinion.

Pat Fenner (28:41):

Stephanie, I’m totally in agreement with you. You know that saying, “You can’t pour from an empty pitcher?” Well, I was trying for many years and you’re right, you can’t. Oh, God, you’re right. You can force it, you can try whatever.

Pat Fenner (28:54):

But man, how awesome for my grandkids to see me, “Oh, Abuela is going on a trip because she wants to. I won’t see her for a week or two.” They’ll miss me, and I’ll bring a trinket for them when I come home. I love that idea for them to see a grown … I don’t know, can I say this? A grown-

Stephanie McCullough (29:12):

Oh, yes, you can. Say it.

Pat Fenner (29:14):

A grown-ass woman being a grown-ass woman.

Stephanie McCullough (29:17):

Just being independent, thriving. So, that’s one of the things that you had mentioned in your podcast, Pat, was about modeling emotional resilience for those in your family. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Pat Fenner (29:32):

Yes. Oh man, I’ll tell you, when I was first divorced, I know my kids, I love them to death, and I know they love me, and I’m sure they had these conversations (I was a hot mess), “What are we going to do about Mom? What are we going to do?” And I did stay there, I was there a little too longer than I (looking back) would’ve liked to be, but that’s okay. Everybody’s process is different.

Pat Fenner (29:58):

But they see me now trying new things, they see me with a business, they see me learning things. They know that it took me three times to get through my SIE exam, and that I just kept going into it. And they are seeing this resilience. The hardest thing for me is going to be – my oldest granddaughter is six, and she asked me the other day, she said, “Why don’t you and Pop-pop live together anymore?”

Pat Fenner (30:24):

And I said, “Honey, I don’t mind talking to you about this, but they’re kind of big thoughts, and I think can we go back and revisit this conversation in a while? We’re both doing great. Pop-pop and I are doing great,” (and I think that’s what she was worried about) “and I would love to talk to you about this, but I think these are kind of grown-up thoughts, and let’s do this another time when you’re a little older.”

Stephanie McCullough (30:47):

Oh, I like that, good answer. And she was fine with the answer?

Pat Fenner (30:50):

And she was fine with the answer. I was taking her seriously. I don’t want to demonize my ex. There are times that I want to, but-

Stephanie McCullough (31:00):

Your higher self doesn’t want to.

Pat Fenner (31:02):

Exactly. But I don’t want to do that to her, and the concept of, “But my life is better now” that doesn’t sit with a 6-year-old, she can’t understand that yet. So, that’s how I kind of do that. But I’m going to have to have that conversation with her someday. But she’ll be able to understand a little more, and that’ll happen when it happens.

Stephanie McCullough (31:20):

No, I love that. And the other thing that I really enjoyed that you talked about in your show was this idea of intentionally moving into a role and reclaiming it of matriarch.

Pat Fenner (31:34):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (31:35):

What does that mean to you?

Pat Fenner (31:36):

That’s something that I never really even considered. My mother-in-law (she’s still always going to be my mother-in-law), she kind of adopted this matriarch attitude. She’d always sit at the table, we always had Sunday dinners together, and she would come, and she sat at the head of the table because she was the matriarch, and she kind of (I don’t want to say lorded it over) lorded it over.

Pat Fenner (31:59):

She wasn’t obnoxious about it or anything, but she kind of liked being the matriarch, it gave her a role. And what’s really interesting is (now her sister has kind of taken that over in their family) I realized probably about a year ago that if we were going to continue this line of thinking, I am the matriarch of my family.

Pat Fenner (32:22):

But I look at the concept of patriarchy, which has really gotten twisted in our culture and stuff — matriarchy to me isn’t about being served, it is serving. And I don’t mean in the way that I did that with my kids growing up, feeding them and all that stuff. Matriarch is the head of the clan, the household, whatever, has the most years of experience, has a lot of life behind them, has learned a lot of lessons, a lot of wisdom to pass on.

Pat Fenner (32:53):

And to me, that’s the role of a matriarch. How to extend or share life experiences so that the rest of the family can benefit from them. Now, it’s not telling them what to do at all. I don’t tell anybody what to do, because then I’m responsible for their decisions, and I’m done with that.

Pat Fenner (33:14):

But I do have a lot of experience, and I can say, “Hey, you know what, I was in your situation one time, this is what I did.” But then I can say, “I think that was a mistake the way I handled it, or I can see some potential problems with what you’re doing. Are you interested in hearing it?” Who wouldn’t want to know? Because I want to give them the authority to say, “No, I’m okay, I’m good.” 9 times out of 10, they want to hear it, it doesn’t mean they’re going to do it.

Pat Fenner (33:42):

Not only am I a recovering people-pleaser, but I’m also an oldest child. My birth mother died when I was very young, and then my dad remarried. But I kind of took on the role of woman of the household at a very young age.

Pat Fenner (33:58):

I am so used to telling people what to do. I’m not proud of that, so I’m recovering from that. I do have a lot of life wisdom, but that doesn’t mean that it’s all going to apply to you in your situation, and I have to accept that.

Stephanie McCullough (34:15):

And they might not be (that particular day) ready to hear it.

Pat Fenner (34:21):

Exactly, and that’s fine. So, now, I take the role of matriarch to me, in a more constructive way. I’m (no offense to my dear departed mother-in-law), I’m just taking it and running with it, you know.

Stephanie McCullough (34:37):

No, I love that. Pat, we could obviously talk all day because you’re just a delight, and I love hearing your story and how you’ve transformed your situation and are inspiring others. How can people find you, follow along, and learn from your wisdom, even if they’re not part of your family?

Pat Fenner (34:53):

Probably because they’re not part of my family. But anyway, I’ll give you the link to my book, Rebuilding Your Life After A Gray Divorce. I also do have a resource page on my website. My website is patfenner.me but I have, https://www.patfenner.me/gray-resources and that has a lot of resources for people who have been through a gray divorce and are looking to move forward.

Pat Fenner (35:24):

And then of course, I have the podcast Silver Women Bright Future, which I will be picking up again this summer, and love to share what I’ve learned and encouragement there.

Kevin Gaines (35:35):

Fantastic.

Stephanie McCullough (35:35):

Awesome. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Pat Fenner (35:38):

Thank you, guys. This has been a lot of fun. You’re right, we could talk all day, Stephanie.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (35:48):

As always, we enjoy these conversations, Stephanie, especially when she was referring to our previous episodes, which I always enjoy. It’s like, “Oh hey, we don’t have to promote our own stuff, somebody’s doing it for us. Yay.”

Stephanie McCullough (36:01):

But we will link to those in the show notes so you can find them.

Kevin Gaines (36:05):

One thing she did bring up that I think was a really good idea, and to her point, even if you’re not getting divorced or going through some sort of life change, just periodically, I believe the cliche they like to use is taking in self-inventory or whatever. But yeah, understand what you’ve done in your past, whether it’s a job or not, is immaterial, just the stuff you like to do, the stuff you can do.

Kevin Gaines (36:35):

Because A, you may discover, “Hey, wait a second, here’s something I want to do, even as a hobby or just to kind of go off and do my own thing,” so to speak. But if something sudden occurs, because we don’t always get a 3-year notice that we’re going to get divorced or become a widow or widower.

Stephanie McCullough (36:56):

Or just financial things turn sour, and you need to make a little money.

Kevin Gaines (37:00):

Exactly. But just doing that, it gives a sense of control and preparedness. We talk about this all the time, the importance of planning isn’t so much, “Oh, we have to do this step by step,” but just to have a framework and get in our minds, oh, if something does happen, we know how to react, or we can at least know what direction to go into. This is one of those steps. So, clearly, I’ve gloomed onto that since I’ve been talking about it for the last five minutes, but anyway-

Stephanie McCullough (37:35):

I have to say I have gotten good advice from friends just having a casual lunch or conversation, and they’ll say something reflecting back to me, either my strengths or ideas they have, and I kind of go, “Oh …” either, “I hadn’t thought of that, that’s a great idea.” Or “Yes, I had been thinking about that, and now you’re confirming that maybe I could go that direction.” So, doing the self-inventory, but also talking to friends and acquaintances and getting some of that feedback.

Kevin Gaines (38:05):

Well, it’s just to widen your network, because you never know where you’re going to get good advice or inspiration or a thought. It comes from weird, unexpected places all the time.

Stephanie McCullough (38:20):

All the time, that’s true. I also was touched by her story when she met with the financial advisor and he said, “What do you want?” And she burst into tears because she didn’t know. I feel like this is a common refrain I hear from women of this era of life and friends of mine. We’ve gotten through the phase where people needed us a lot, and now, all of a sudden, we have a little time and space. We almost come up for air and be like, “Oh, what do I like to do?”

Stephanie McCullough (38:51):

I remember before the pandemic hit, I realized my youngest was going off to college. Of course, they both came back when we had lockdown, but that was unexpected. But I was like, “Wait, do I have a hobby? I don’t think I have any hobbies. If I had time to myself, what the heck would I do with it?”

Stephanie McCullough (39:07):

Of course, Pat was forced to think about this on a more existential scale, but we’ve seen it with clients we talk to about their money. Money is a tool. What’s it for? What is it you want in life? “Wait, I get to think about that? I get to have a say?”

Stephanie McCullough (39:23):

And I liked her point about post-divorce, yes, grieving what might have been and being on their own. But there’s glorious parts about being on your own, and getting to decide for herself what the heck she wants to do and how she wants to define her own version of success.

Kevin Gaines (39:40):

Well, and this is true of most of us is our retirement plan, our retirement goals, the retirement life we envision is a compromise. It might be a happy compromise, it might be a brutal compromise. But if we are with a partner, they’re not 100% in total alignment with everything you want to do. We’re going to make sacrifices.

Kevin Gaines (40:04):

Even when she sat down with her financial advisor (or conversation, I guess it wasn’t even her advisor at that moment), because she had never thought about what she wanted to do in retirement, she had issues. But even if you come down, and when you first start thinking about your retirement life and you’re on your own, even if you’ve given it a lot of thought, there was somebody else involved in the mix. It doesn’t hurt to fantasize-

Stephanie McCullough (40:42):

Revisit, rethink.

Kevin Gaines (40:43):

Revisit, rethink.

Stephanie McCullough (40:43):

Dream big.

Kevin Gaines (40:44):

Of what would it look like if (for whatever reason, good, bad, indifferent) I get to be selfish, to use her phrase — what would that look like? Just a thought.

Stephanie McCullough (40:58):

Thank you, dear listeners. We hope you enjoyed this revisiting of our divorce mini-series. When we met Pat, we knew we just had to come back to the topic. We will link to all of her resources in the show notes. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (41:13):

And it’s goodbye from her.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (41:16):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (41:31):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.