Donna Kendrick (00:00):

Some of those conversations were at restaurants because it’d be one like, “Okay, nobody needs to storm out, nobody needs to raise their voice,” we get along very well, but money is money, and scar tissue is scar tissue, right?

Stephanie McCullough (00:12):

Yeah, and combine the two.

Donna Kendrick (00:14):

Yeah. He went into every conversation of Donna’s been abandoned financially because of my husband passing and me feeling very desperate. I wasn’t, we had life insurance, we did fine, but you had that feeling.

Donna Kendrick (00:24):

And I went into it as he lost everything in a divorce and someone else has it all. And he was like, that was a different feeling for him. And so, I had to make sure anything I suggested wasn’t Donna has more than Jim because that was his sensitivity. Being aware of that helped every conversation.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:50):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:25):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:14):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:25):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (02:28):

So, those of you who listen regularly, will remember our previous episode, episode 109 about remarriage and money when we had Janice Guinn join us to talk about the realities, the legalities of thinking about marriage later in life. You will be excited because today in our episode, we have as our guest, Donna Kendrick.

Stephanie McCullough (02:49):

Donna, kind of like Janice, has lived through this. Donna’s husband passed away unexpectedly in 2013, and she was navigating widowhood with three young children. So, after that, she decided to relaunch her career into financial planning. So, she is a career changer after having gone through widowhood, and she made it her mission to support other families going through these kinds of transitions.

Stephanie McCullough (03:15):

So, she is a certified financial planner, she is a certified divorce financial analyst, and she’ll be sharing today with us her story of navigating conversations about remarriage and money. So, here we go with Donna.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (03:34):

Donna Kendrick, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Donna Kendrick (03:37):

Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it today.

Stephanie McCullough (03:40):

I’m so excited that we connected. So, we had a great conversation, career changer into financial planning. Why don’t you give us an overview of the work you’re doing now?

Donna Kendrick (03:49):

Yeah. So, currently, I’m working with families in transition, we refer to them as – so, widowhood, people going through divorce or post-divorce, and then our sweet, blended families. That’s our niche market, our niche-niche, however you say it but that is really where we’re helping because I really feel like with my life history, I’ve gone through some transitions.

Donna Kendrick (04:09):

I’ve gone through career change and two years ago, we blended our family, and it even gets a little bit different there. Because I’m a widow who married someone who was divorced, and then probably about a year ago, his ex-wife passed away. So, we have many layers of the financial conversation to figure out, to rejudge, to recalibrate, and it’s been a whirlwind.

Donna Kendrick (04:32):

So, I’m really happy when my blended families come in, I’m like, “Lay it on me. I don’t think I haven’t experienced it, let’s go.” So, it’s just a different take on financial planning. A lot more handholding, a lot more education, a lot more patience because you want to find out the why.

Donna Kendrick (04:47):

Like why do we make the financial decisions we’re doing? What happened in marriage number one that led you to feel this way? What happened with mom and dad that made you feel this way before we can make these new decisions, it’s been fun.

Stephanie McCullough (05:01):

That’s such a great point. I think what people expect when they come to a financial planner is investment, products and numbers, and what we do is so much more than that.

Donna Kendrick (05:12):

Yeah. It’s adding little love back into financial planning. That’s really what it is. It doesn’t sound like one of those touchy-feely industries when you major on it in college, like, “I’m going to be a CFP,” but it really can be.

Donna Kendrick (05:25):

I always say to anyone who’s thinking about interning, one of the best things to do is major in psychology and finance or psychology and economics. I really think that that human behavior part is so important.

Stephanie McCullough (05:38):

Absolutely. Because that’s often what stands in our way around money, and especially if you get two people together, it probably more than doubles the complications.

Donna Kendrick (05:49):

It does, yeah. And even I know … can I jump into like my little story there?

Stephanie McCullough (05:53):

Yes, please. I’d love to.

Kevin Gaines (05:54):

Please.

Donna Kendrick (05:55):

So, I was widowed back in 2013 when my kids were younger, so 8, 11 and 12. And so, I had a long time to recreate my career, stand on my own two feet, figure out the finances, and I can honestly say have everything my way.

Donna Kendrick (06:10):

Absolutely every decision was my mine, mine, mine. I used to even discipline. I would stand in the middle of the foyer, the kids would be having a fit. They did not like that little discipline I put in, and I was like, “Who’s going to disagree with me? Anyone? Anyone? Oops, no, just me.” That was one advantage of widowhood.

Donna Kendrick (06:28):

So, when I met my husband and we met just organically, and so we’re friends for years and then became a couple, I knew a lot of his background from his first divorce. I knew a lot of his background because we both grew up in Northeast Philadelphia, I knew a lot of his background because he had given up his career to raise his kids.

Donna Kendrick (06:49):

He was a carpenter by trade, his wife worked for the federal law enforcement, so traveled a lot. So, he spent four to six years raising his kids, and then going back to work. So, what did that feel like for him to not have an income at that time? So, I knew all of these things even before we became a couple.

Donna Kendrick (07:06):

And so, now, here we’ve become a couple and I’m completely stubborn because everything’s my way and here comes someone who, because his ex-wife was also more of the accounting side of the federal government, so she handled all the finances. So, his experience with finances, especially long-term planning, zero. His experience with how does he want to spend his money, it’s a hot second in his pocket, and he’s spending it because he believes that life is short, here we go.

Donna Kendrick (07:37):

So, we had two people, me saving forever because I lost my first husband, I’m on my own, nervous about making it work, and then someone who’s just like, “You only live once, let’s spend,” that was a huge, big, deep breath for me as a person.

Donna Kendrick (07:52):

And trying to take the financial advisor hat off as a person in a marriage was very difficult because I feel like I knew the right path. I knew it without being aware of his. So, right path because I’m an advisor and right path because I want it my way, that’s kind of how it worked – didn’t work out that way.

Stephanie McCullough (08:10):

So, if you are willing to share, did that lead to some conflict?

Donna Kendrick (08:13):

Some of those things have bumped up. We did live together before we were married – yes mom, we lived in sin, but we were in our upper forties, it’s okay, we’re fine. We had the intention of being married, but COVID hit. So, right when we moved in together, that whole wedding plan was just done because of COVID.

Donna Kendrick (08:33):

And at the same time, here’s six kids (so I have three older, he has three younger – right now, they span from 14 to 23) who had never lived together now being quarantined together. Like that was fun. You realize your house is too small really quickly when you have six kids all on your Wi-Fi, you’re just like, “Ah, we can’t, like we just can’t.”

Stephanie McCullough (08:56):

Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Donna Kendrick (08:57):

Yes. It was tough. But even with that, so I was like, “Okay, whatever you paid for rent, just give me towards the house.” Makes sense, here we go. But the house is in my name, so therefore, all the value that he’s paying in rent that’s going towards the mortgage is going towards my equity not towards his. How’s that fair? And in my head just thought it, “Well, he’s not paying rent, he’s living here, he’s saving on utilities. Here we go.” This is easy. Not that easy, not that easy.

Kevin Gaines (09:24):

Quick question: did he think of it in these terms of by paying you rent, he’s giving you equity and he’s just having to deal with this cost, or … I’m trying to get a gauge of his financial, I don’t know, financial awareness, would that be the right phrase? I was trying not to use that word, but yes.

Donna Kendrick (09:44):

Yeah, that’s it. No, so, he was just like, “Yeah, that sounds good.” And then it’s called what it is. It’s water cooler talk. He was one of those deemed essential people who had to go back to work, so he’s telling everyone like, “I feel bad she’s back at the house, there’s six kids in there, whatever.” They’re like, “Oh, well …” and then you start talking like, we really do bounce a lot off peers at the water cooler, and someone’s like, “That doesn’t make any sense, she’s getting value.”

Donna Kendrick (10:10):

Because his coworkers were fiercely protective of him for what had happened in divorce number one. Pretty much he didn’t walk with much equity from that. Personal choice too, it’s how they decided to finish it, okay. But this is people that have loved him for years and are very, very protective, so yeah, that came from water cooler talk.

Donna Kendrick (10:29):

So, for me it was very surprising because we agreed upon it. Wait, now what? For me, my sensitivity was when someone changes the rule. I had a husband, I’d no longer had a husband when he passed away and all of a sudden, all the rules changed. So, I was someone who liked consistency, so for him to agree and then come back, I was like, “Oh really? Is this how this relationship’s going to go?” Money matters can impact everything else, I believe.

Stephanie McCullough (10:54):

Totally, yeah.

Donna Kendrick (10:56):

It trickles down. So, yeah, so that was it. So, let me fast forward – we did wind up remortgaging the house and putting his name on it for a portion of equity of that house. So, we worked that out years later when we actually remortgaged the house and moved, so yep that’s how we did it.

Kevin Gaines (11:15):

Interesting.

Donna Kendrick (11:16):

So, his name went on the mortgage, and therefore, his name went on the title and I took a different layer of equity for what I had built into the house. So, we kind of bargained with that for different rules.

Stephanie McCullough (11:28):

So, that’s an example of something where there can be a solution that is equitable to both parties, but if you don’t even realize it’s an issue kind of going in and that it should be something to be discussed, it can end up kind of being a landmine, right? I’m mixing all my metaphors.

Donna Kendrick (11:44):

No, it’s true. And so, because we have three kids each on both sides, I always say we had mine, we had his, we had ours, and we had theirs. So, again, when my first husband passed, there was a portion of his IRA that he’d gotten from the government, from the TSP that in my mind, I was always like, “I’m going to keep that aside for the kids.”

Donna Kendrick (12:05):

It was always just a side money for the kids, I’m going to create my own retirement. So, it’s mine, it’s definitely mine. I inherited it as a spouse, it’s mine, but mentally, it’s for the kids. So, then here comes husband number two and he’s like, “But you have this big pool of money, why are you working so hard?” I was like, “Well, because that’s for the kids.” He’s like, “The full-grown adults? That’s who it’s for?” Again, here we go.

Donna Kendrick (12:30):

And so, now, I’m saving for two people’s retirements: his, my new husband’s and mine. Keeping money off the table. It was really hard to have those negotiations when we’re doing beneficiary, and he has to sign the spousal waiver.

Donna Kendrick (12:45):

Wow, it comes up again and again. Even though you might all think it’s copacetic, it’s going to come up when you transfer accounts, have to sign a spousal waiver, have to put your terms on your life insurance, things like that.

Donna Kendrick (12:58):

He’s like yeah, and so my sweet husband who is again not very financial savvy (he is now), he always says the best thing to ever do when you don’t really know what to do with finances is marry an advisor. Like that’s nice, thanks a lot.

Kevin Gaines (13:12):

Hey, my wife says the same thing.

Donna Kendrick (13:14):

There you go. They’re on to something.

Stephanie McCullough (13:17):

My husband does not say that.

Donna Kendrick (13:21):

But yeah, so every time you have to sign that waiver, it comes up again. It’s like a scab you have to pick off even though you said yes. And again, here’s me from that first conversation of, yeah, but the house isn’t going into equity. I was like, “Is he going to pull something again?” But I’m like, I try to be as fair, as humanly possible.

Donna Kendrick (13:39):

And so yeah, we also got a prenup. Before we got married, we did get a prenup. We listed out all of our assets, we listed out what was titled to me or what was titled in his name, what was going to be beneficiary designated outside of our will, and what we would be putting in place in life insurance to really cover my missing income because he took another step back from his career to help raise all of these kids a few years later after their mom passed.

Donna Kendrick (14:07):

So, how are we going to cover my income? And if I leave the house to the kids, let’s say we shift, we leave the house to my kids, the three, well, are they going to kick him out if I die first? He is younger, it might happen. So, what’s going to happen?

Donna Kendrick (14:24):

And so, now, no, we had to do a will that said he gets to stay there until he either remarries or he dies, then the kids get the asset. But I had to do life insurance that he could cover maintenance of the house so he could cover the $16,000 a year in real estate and school taxes in our district. We had to make sure he had that. That’s how we worked life insurance as part of our agreement in the prenup.

Stephanie McCullough (14:48):

Now, did you guys figure out this prenup on your own? Did you work with an attorney? How did you come about it?

Donna Kendrick (14:53):

Yeah, we did the preliminary. Again, since I am a financial advisor and I like to plan. I had some of the outlines for it but we definitely leaned in, so we leaned into an attorney. We had an estate attorney do one part of it, we had a divorce attorney do the other part of it. Because I felt like that divorce attorney kind of knew the outside of it. If we title it this way, it’s going to get tricky on the other side.

Donna Kendrick (15:15):

Both of us had the shared goal that we wanted that prenup not to be what if something doesn’t happen or something happens in our marriage, we just want it simple. Like less to figure out, it is straightforward, it is simple. And yeah, as life has changed, even since the two years we’ve been married, we’re considering doing a postnup because my practice has a value now, things like that.

Donna Kendrick (15:37):

My adult kids aren’t 18 anymore, now they’re 23, 22, they’re on their own. Like who’s going to be responsible for my daughter’s student loans? For the one I co-signed with, who’s that? How is she going to afford that? My second husband’s not going to pay for that because he told her to go to Penn State, not Emerson. Two very different price points, I’m not paying that, so yeah.

Kevin Gaines (16:01):

So, you said you two agreed on or mutually wanted to have the prenup, but the actual conversation, was that something you brought up or did it just come up between the two of you organically?

Donna Kendrick (16:15):

It came up organically because I was very hesitant to marry him. Not because I didn’t love him, and I was completely fine living in sin. Honestly, my best relationship … I know, I know Polish Catholic is not happy. The best relationship I saw was actually my Polish grandma.

Donna Kendrick (16:34):

She lived with my “Uncle Al,” who was her boyfriend of 45 years. He was really … yeah, he was pretty much my grandfather, it’s all I knew. She got divorced very, very young, at an age where it wasn’t very savvy for a woman to be divorced.

Donna Kendrick (16:50):

The church told her she couldn’t marry again. Now, things changed through the church years later but she believed them. She’s like, “Well, they weren’t going to let me” and that’s how I learned, so I’m not getting married. Now, living in sin is a whole another thing, but to turn a blind eye to that.

Donna Kendrick (17:05):

But they were the happiest couple that I had ever met. They had joy together. It’s just because of who they were as people, not that they were married or not. But in my little head, everyone else is in twin beds, what’s happening? You’d see it on I Love Lucy and being like it happened somewhere, but the Bradys aren’t, like what’s happening?

Donna Kendrick (17:24):

So, really, I was like, “Oh, this living and sin thing is perfect.” My finances my way, my stuff, here we go. Talk about a dug in widow who was just staunch on it, but both of us believed in marriage. Both of us wanted a marriage, that was always what we wanted. And we wanted that for the kids more than anything. So, I got to give it to my Jim, he’s the one who pushed for the full marriage.

Donna Kendrick (17:49):

And so, we set a date like two to three years out from that COVID date. And I was like, “Alright, we make it through COVID, this is what we’ll do.” And that’s when the conversation started. Because I’m like, “Great, I have like a two-year, three-year runway to get this all organized.”

Donna Kendrick (18:05):

And fairly, because after that very … I had some scar tissue, if you can’t tell from that very first conversation of, “Wait, I’m giving you rent, it’s not going into my equity of the house,” so they don’t own it.

Donna Kendrick (18:16):

Right there, my awareness went up like all I need to be is fair. I need to be fair that if this marriage doesn’t work out, we’re both walking out whole, and if one of us passes, we’re both walking out ability to continue to love and care for the whole six kids.

Stephanie McCullough (18:31):

Those are nice principles. Did that help to kind of have like these are our objectives upfront before you went into all the details?

Donna Kendrick (18:38):

Yeah. It was literally like how we did it is what do I want, what do I need, and what’s an option? So, need is very different than want, it really is. And then what is like a just deal breaker. And everything else like you both kind of sit there on your own, figure it out, then you sit at the table together. And it’s not just one conversation, it can be two.

Donna Kendrick (19:00):

And I always wonder some of those conversations were at restaurants because it’d be one like, “Okay, nobody needs to storm out, nobody needs to raise their voice, we get along very well,” but money is money and scar tissue is scar tissue.

Stephanie McCullough (19:14):

Yeah, and combine the two.

Donna Kendrick (19:16):

Yeah. He went into every conversation of Donna’s been abandoned financially and I went into it because of my husband passing and me feeling very desperate. I wasn’t, we had life insurance, we did fine, but you had that feeling.

Donna Kendrick (19:27):

And I went into it as he lost everything in a divorce and someone else has it all, and he was like, that was a different feeling for him. And so, I had to make sure anything I suggested wasn’t Donna has more than Jim because that was his sensitivity. Being aware of that helped every conversation.

Stephanie McCullough (19:46):

Oh, that’s a good point.

Donna Kendrick (19:48):

So, we both wrote our list and then we sat down together and were like, “Okay, what matches, what doesn’t match? What’s a negotiable, what’s a non-negotiable? And let’s go from there.” And then once you kind of have that judged out and we did it also by topics like banking, investments, property, classic cars, like these are the things. I don’t have any of those assets.

Donna Kendrick (20:08):

And I also put in there any of the things I love best in life go to him if we get divorced, they’ll keep me married, swear to that. So, these are emotional things that I put in for myself. But really, we went, and then after we had that outlined, that’s when we sat with the divorce attorney.

Donna Kendrick (20:24):

It was like, “How does this look?” And she helped us work it out. Yep, we had that in line. Then we had our will updated to make sure that we matched that. Again, we went in and did life insurance to match and that was, I call it the wedding package. After that, I was happily skipping down the aisle. It was fine. It was fine.

Stephanie McCullough (20:40):

Got it. Interesting. So, some of the hesitation around getting married wasn’t just that you saw a lovely couple who wasn’t married, but can you say were some of your other hesitation? Because I feel like I’ve seen more and more women – sorry, after I asked you a question, now I’m going to say something. I feel like I’m seeing more women kind of in this phase of life opting not to remarry.

Donna Kendrick (21:04):

Yeah, and again, I think financially, it would’ve been easier not to remarry. I do to this very day. I’m a financial advisor and I would say it probably would’ve been easier.

Stephanie McCullough (21:13):

Less entanglement kind of?

Donna Kendrick (21:16):

Yeah, kind of, sort of. But I think on our marriage or our relationship, that would’ve taken a toll, I do believe that. Especially because we had no clue that his ex-wife was going to pass away. And so, we were going to have six kids officially full-time under one roof.

Donna Kendrick (21:33):

So, now we’re moving into Social Security benefits for his kids, now we’re moving into, we need a bigger house to fit all of these kids, how are we going to afford that? Whose savings are we taking out of?

Donna Kendrick (21:46):

Now, we’re moving into health benefits, who’s going to run the health benefits? If I cannot imagine if we weren’t married, hitting these stop bumps – because we were married, able to put the kids on the health benefits. Able to say, “Okay, if I have leftover 529s from my youngest who’s the middle, I can roll it over to one of his kids to help. Those are those things that make sense, but if we weren’t married, that couldn’t have happened.

Stephanie McCullough (22:14):

That’s not an option.

Donna Kendrick (22:15):

I can go to the school when one of the kids are sick. Like that’s big-

Stephanie McCullough (22:20):

Because you have legal rights.

Donna Kendrick (22:22):

Have legal rights.

Kevin Gaines (22:23):

Legal standing.

Donna Kendrick (22:24):

I do. And I will tell that for anyone who is “living in sin,” I hate that term. I’m going to come up with a new one. But the one thing I did have with Jim-

Stephanie McCullough (22:30):

Or cohabitating.

Donna Kendrick (22:32):

There we go, cohabitating, partnering. Like we were there for three years partnering before we got married, I did have a healthcare directive on him. I wanted to make the decisions on him. I wasn’t living with him as husband and wife, but not officially married and not being able to do that.

Donna Kendrick (22:50):

And so, that’s some of the things that legally, even though you’re maybe not fully committing, you can still use some of these legal documents to protect one another and protect your feeling. Like he’s the person I love best in the world, he’s my best friend – I wasn’t going to have his sister come and make an end-of-life decision for him.

Stephanie McCullough (23:05):

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Gaines (23:08):

I’ve been thinking about … it’s stuck in my head about your specifically the inherited retirement account from your first husband wanting to use it for the kids. Prior to marriage (but this is a more general question), how aware of finances were your kids and how much did they know, again, using the retirement account as an example, that this was going to be their money.

Kevin Gaines (23:34):

So, that then when the new husband comes in, Jim comes into play, was there conversations with your kids that you had to have to say, “This is what I’m doing to protect what we had, or this is where he’s now going to get something that you thought you were going to get.” How did those conversations play out?

Donna Kendrick (23:53):

Oh, you’re really good, Kevin. So, here goes, if they’re listening to this podcast, they will find out that their dad’s inherited IRA, that they’re beneficiaries on it. If they don’t listen to this podcast, they don’t know, that’s it.

Donna Kendrick (24:08):

That being said, how do I preface this kindly – as a widow, there was a lot of talk about my finances from loving, supportive family and extended family wanting to make sure I was going to be okay in front of my children that didn’t need to be there. And that’s one of the reasons why I always encourage people when they’re facing a life transition, be a little bit private because of that.

Donna Kendrick (24:31):

Now, how did that get leaked? Somebody that I confided in in the family kind of leaked it out to the masses. So, my kids had a general understanding as to, okay, life insurance will cover their schooling and will allow me to keep my house. That’s really what life insurance did for me. The rest of it, income, not enough, that’s where it was.

Donna Kendrick (24:50):

So, they kind of knew an awareness that there was life insurance and that they were going to have a Penn State education covered, they knew that, and I actually openly talked about that later. What I did talk about is when we did buy this next house that they, again, the final house, the big one that we have with all of the kids now, that is in my name and there is no mortgage on it.

Donna Kendrick (25:13):

So, the conversation was this house will be probably an asset for my children because it is the house that my main investments went into, but you cannot kick Jim out if I die. Right now, if he marries again, he’s gone, but there’s nothing I wanted was for, if I die tomorrow for his three kids that are still in that school district to not be able to stay. That is not why we bought that house.

Donna Kendrick (25:36):

We bought that house to move school districts so his kids could stay there when their mom passed. So, my big kids do know that as well as his kids do know that, and that was a hard one to have with his kids. This house that we’re calling a family home at this moment will go to the Kendrick kids if something happens. Offset to that, when their mom passed, they’re the trustees of their mom.

Donna Kendrick (26:00):

So, they had another parent on the other side too, who’s taking care of them that way. Does that kind of make sense?

Stephanie McCullough (26:05):

Yes.

Donna Kendrick (26:08):

So, it’s like they have this walnut, and my kids have this walnut, like this is it. The only person without a walnut is Jim which is why he gets to stay in the house and why we have life insurance, but we did have that call with the kids.

Donna Kendrick (26:19):

Now, does that mean that maybe me and Jim might survive ourselves or when we retire, support ourselves (that’s the word, support ourselves) with the IRA to keep the house as an asset for the kids? We might very well. We’ve just kind of done the shell game of where we move money.

Stephanie McCullough (26:36):

Yeah. I feel like it adds another layer that people who don’t come in with their own kids or their own money and their own pre-kind of financial life don’t necessarily have.

Donna Kendrick (26:48):

And I did, I can honestly say I have a very hard time with my oldest, who really thought that all of this was his dad’s legacy. And I was like, “Sweetheart, your dad was a government worker, there was no legacy. We were paycheck to paycheck, there was none.”

Donna Kendrick (27:04):

But again, when you have people with gossip in the background, there’s a legacy all of a sudden. I was like, “Is his legacy the Toyota Camry that’s green? Okay, you can have it.” So, my oldest, because he was the oldest, he was 12 when he passed. So, during those developmental years, he heard those conversations. For the other younger two, not as much, not as much.

Stephanie McCullough (27:28):

So interesting. So, you’ve obviously lived through it, you’ve helped clients through it, you’ve written books about this stuff, what tips or suggestions do you have for someone who maybe is in a relationship now where they’re coming out of being widowed or divorced and thinking, “Oh gosh, do I want to formalize this and legalize this into marriage?” What do you suggest? Is there a checklist of things to think about?

Donna Kendrick (27:56):

Yeah, I mean the first one is there’s always a great checklist that you can get from all your financial advisors, so reach out. But make sure that you have the basics understood. Like this is you’re committed. It’s not your dating. I always say if you’re dating, don’t say a word, wait until this is committed.

Donna Kendrick (28:15):

So, I protect a lot of widows and divorcees in my practice. I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. No, not on day one. We’re not doing that.” But it’s always like, “Okay, what’s your income? What’s your benefits at work?” Because when you marry, you might have a choice to make. Does someone need more benefits? Does someone have a chronic disease? How are things titled in your house? What mortgages do you have?

Donna Kendrick (28:37):

So many people won’t talk about maybe missteps or short-term debt or the amount of the mortgage because maybe they had to go get a new one to get out of the divorce and buy the house from the other spouse. So, that’s a big one.

Donna Kendrick (28:48):

Like let’s just sit there, write down … it’s almost like finding out your net worth, do that. Find out your net worth individually as well as your benefits, your protection plan, your short-term, long-term disability, life insurances trade.

Donna Kendrick (29:03):

Because remember, if you’re not married, you might not be able to leave that work life insurance. You probably can, but maybe the ex-spouse needs to sign a waiver, who knows. You got to be careful. But then more than anything else, and I say this to everyone, pull your credit reports.

Donna Kendrick (29:18):

So, on www.annualcreditreport.com, you can get one of each of the three providers a free one each year. Don’t do all three at once, space them out mom, space them out. Like these are those things. But pull them or get it from the same provider so it looks the same and trade, trade.

Donna Kendrick (29:35):

You will find so much out about your partner when you start going down the line. Like, “Oh, why do you have care credit?” “Oh, I financed a $9,000 eyeball surgery for my bulldog.” “Oh, okay.” Would the other partner spend money on that? Well, that’s a core conversation. It really is, it really is. And go down those lists because sometimes, it’s hard to tell, but it’s okay to research and spend that time.

Stephanie McCullough (30:02):

That’s a nice way to say it. So, I have clients or have talked to plenty of women who are reluctant to look at their own numbers because of kind of the judgments they carry around in their own head, much less share their numbers with somebody else. Because we fear judgment, we fear criticism, we feel shame about maybe our situation, whether it’s warranted (I think it’s always unwarranted actually) – how do you advise folks on that?

Donna Kendrick (30:30):

Ask them to get that third party, bring in that financial advisor, have them sit at the table. Because honestly, if you’re sitting with a third party at the table going through this exercise, you might not get into the story of, “Well, why did you make that decision five years ago?” Because many of us want to live for today. That was my past, this is today.

Donna Kendrick (30:48):

But when we’re tilling about someone that might be bringing their past in of short-term debt with us, we have to crack that onion or peel the onion a little bit, you have to. But many of times, the questions might not come up to the depth that you think they would if you have a financial advisor there. So, a little bit of a safety barrier. Now, the car ride home afterwards, have some rules, have some rules.

Donna Kendrick (31:15):

I always tell my clients, now when you leave here, I want to promise that for 24 hours, you’re not talking about this. Come back in the next day or have a beautiful dinner, like go out to dinner, or stay home, whatever. If you think they’re screaming, stay home.

Donna Kendrick (31:30):

But it could be very good. You could be very surprised like, “Oh my God, I didn’t know his benefits were so great.” Like maybe a teacher with a great benefit like, “We’re going to be okay if we do it together.” There’s a lot of strength for couples moving together financially, a lot of stress or strength.

Donna Kendrick (31:47):

You could be cutting down on two mortgages down to one, you could have combined IRAs that can support you both for that retirement income. Instead of two separate $6,000 a month, it’s just one. These are those things that are really important and to know that.

Donna Kendrick (32:03):

So, yep, have someone else help you with the conversation. Highly recommend a professional, not your brother-in-law, and then be nice in the car the day after, the drive after. I always say it’s the quiet person in a meeting that’s going to haul off in the car.

Kevin Gaines (32:18):

You were saying how in the beginning of your story that you didn’t necessarily think of, “Oh, I didn’t think of how the house equity was going to play specifically.” But looking back, what could you have done differently or what mistakes did you make at least initially that now when you’re talking with clients you say, “Hey, here’s something to think about or be aware of?”

Donna Kendrick (32:45):

One, I didn’t ask. I didn’t ask my Jim how he felt. The word feeling, I didn’t ask how he felt. I knew that I came in with the financial strength of education, of being a financial advisor. I said this was just going to be my wheelhouse. So, my Jim is a carpenter, so I don’t ask him how he built this beautiful wall behind me. I don’t ask him how he did it. He just built the beautiful wall.

Donna Kendrick (33:06):

So, that’s kind of how I went into it thinking, “Okay, I’m going to handle this. He doesn’t like handling it, we’re just going to roll.” Never thinking that it really could be something very personal to him. Because he personally lost almost everything in divorce, number one, I just didn’t ask.

Kevin Gaines (33:23):

And he didn’t bring it up either?

Donna Kendrick (33:25):

No.

Donna Kendrick (33:26):

I’m guessing, or at least not at first.

Donna Kendrick (33:29):

Not at first. In his mind too, it was kind of like mine, like that’s right, if I bring rent, it’s almost a savings because I wasn’t charging him the same that he had for rent. It was just like that was what he was used to giving. And then there’s no cable bill, there’s no electric bill, there’s no utility bill, we’re all on the same cell phone plan now. So, he was looking at it as savings, like together we were stronger.

Donna Kendrick (33:51):

And I was just looking at it as well, this is going to cost a little more. It’s him and 50% of the time, three other little ones, there’s going to be more in there, so you’re going to give a little to this. And also, in my mind, it was all of that went straight to the principal of the mortgage to pay off the mortgage earlier never thinking that’s in my name, I never asked him.

Kevin Gaines (34:12):

Now, let me ask you the opposite question. Looking back, what did you do or what did the two of you do that you sit back and go, “I don’t know where that came from, but that was brilliant. I’m glad we thought of that. I’m now recommending this to everybody, think of this or do this.”

Donna Kendrick (34:29):

Oh, that’s a good one. You know what it is? Goodness, God, I’m telling you guys a lot. So, my Jim gave up his career to help me with mine. Establishing my practice as well as to help raise all the kids because I work a lot of hours. When their mom passed, he was there while she was sick.

Donna Kendrick (34:48):

So, he really gave up first his career, and then came to work in an industry as my admin and he’s a carpenter that he didn’t love. He did it because he loved me. So, the one thing we did in the very beginning is when he was here under this roof, I made sure our salary was the same.

Donna Kendrick (35:02):

I did not want there to be a, I’m in control of all the money, and because we were both putting in when we’re starting this practice, the same amount of hours. Right now, of course, I make more nowadays because I am established.

Donna Kendrick (35:17):

He has actually stepped away from that role here, we have a beautiful assistant that does it now and he’s in charge of five hours a week. Like the clients that fell in love with Jim, he’s there for them. He’s delivering the paperwork, he’s having calls, they love him, so that’s really where he is.

Donna Kendrick (35:32):

So, that has changed, but in the very beginning, yeah, let’s take this salary and we’re going to make it straight. So, we’re both in it, we’re both in it. And he also has, if something happens to me, value of the practice goes to him, doesn’t go to my kids.

Donna Kendrick (35:48):

We started this practice right when we cohabitated, same exact time, 2020. Like all smart people, I hung my own shingle in the middle of a pandemic, like let’s do that. But it worked out great. And so, he and I have built this practice together. So, that’s that, this is his. This isn’t my kids’, this isn’t his kids’, this is ours.

Donna Kendrick (36:09):

And when something happens to both of us, whatever’s left over, kids, but that’s not the priority right now. They’re educated, they’re good, they’re on their own, we did what we needed to do. Now, we just love up on them when we want to, it’s not an obligation.

Stephanie McCullough (36:23):

Donna, thanks so much for being with us and sharing your story, we really appreciate it. How can people follow and learn more about you?

Donna Kendrick (36:31):

The best way, you can go on to donnajeankendrick.com and that’s where you’ll find our books, any of the speaking opportunities, I do tons of downloadables for things like people who want to figure out their net worth on pieces of paper and then trade, those good things, as well as our podcast.

Donna Kendrick (36:51):

So, we’re doing a podcast called Widow, Wisdom, & Wealth, where we’re actually interviewing career changers that are widows or widowers and have raised kids at the same time. We want to put their inspirational stories out there so other young widows, widowers who are doing that on their own can see the hope, see the change, and just like Kevin asked the questions what worked and what didn’t.

Donna Kendrick (37:10):

There’s a humanity to what didn’t and there’s inspiration with what worked. So, if anybody knows somebody that they think would be a wonderful guest, please connect with us there.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (37:19):

Oh, I have a couple ideas for you, that’s wonderful. Thank you so much for all the work you’re doing and thanks for being with us.

Kevin Gaines (37:24):

Thank you.

Donna Kendrick (37:25):

Thanks for having me. It was a joy.

Kevin Gaines (37:31):

Stephanie, I got to say, that was a fun episode. I always like when we get to listen to people tell the stories of what we’re trying to talk about. Because for example, you, me and Janice talking about, “Oh, here’s a list of things to think about” – while I enjoyed that episode, hearing about it in real time actually I think adds a lot more reality to what we’re saying.

Stephanie McCullough (37:59):

Yes. And even though of course this is just one couple’s story that Donna shared, but I think it’s fascinating because since this is her specialty as a financial planner, she is bringing the wisdom of having helped other clients through it and, you know, as we always say, there is no one right way to do this.

Stephanie McCullough (38:19):

But here is one story, one example, which hopefully, guides you to things to think about. And even if, let’s be real, you’re already remarried, it’s not too late to have conversations and to think about these things, or maybe you can kind of look back at perhaps some conversations that hadn’t gone so well, and have a little bit more insight and maybe be able to revisit.

Kevin Gaines (38:45):

Yes. One of the biggest things I took away from her talking about this was (and I’m not saying this is a bad thing) it exposed oversights that the two of them had because they were happy with the arrangements they had, but it was only once outsiders were hearing about it, they were saying, I’m assuming they said it nicely: “Did you think about X, Y and Z?” specifically this episode, the home equity.

Kevin Gaines (39:12):

And then it then led to, it sounds like, even bigger conversations beyond the home: “Oh, well let’s think about all these other things that we may have just kind of skipped over that we both assumed I was going to do or both assumed you were going to do. Well, let’s just explore it a little bit more just to make sure.”

Stephanie McCullough (39:33):

And she did point out some of the things, like talk about how you’re going to handle the banking, talk about support for children, talk about your ideas on support for pets or what you would spend money on in a heartbeat that maybe other people would be hesitant to spend money on, or even just as she’s talked about the tendency to be more of a saver versus more of a spender.

Stephanie McCullough (39:55):

I really do think even though it might feel uncomfortable to have these conversations, it’s way better to have them upfront and early than get yourself into a pickle later on because everybody’s assuming their own thing. And I love that she talked about the prenup because we talk about prenups and prenups are crucially important, and they feel super unsexy, unromantic, but I like the way that she put it.

Stephanie McCullough (40:22):

Thinking about, okay, what are each of our … like think about it separately, each of our needs, our wants, and the things that are negotiable, and then come together and kind of try to put together a framework, perhaps having some principles up front.

Stephanie McCullough (40:37):

Like we want to make sure the kids are okay, we want to make sure whatever it is but kind of coming up with your own framework maybe before you go to the lawyer. Because as we all know, lawyers have different levels of, shall we say, bedside manner.

Kevin Gaines (40:51):

And not even just bedside manner, but they also have different perspectives. So, letting a divorce attorney look at this document, you’re going to get one frame of reference, letting your financial advisor or advisors take a peek at it, they’re going to have a different frame of reference from your attorneys. So, vetting this stuff to use the old carpentry phrase, measure twice, cut once.

Stephanie McCullough (41:18):

Yeah, there you go. You can get input from people and you don’t have to take it. But it’s maybe informing your approach and opening your eyes to some things that you perhaps hadn’t thought of, which is what we hope these episodes do for you dear listeners. Thanks for being with us, we’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (41:38):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (41:42):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (41:55):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.