Claire Waite Brown (00:00):

You hear a lot of the same themes. One of those themes rather, is, “Well, I can’t draw. So, I always thought I wasn’t creative because I couldn’t draw.”

Claire Waite Brown (00:09):

So, in a way, we’re talking about labels here to begin with [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm, Yeah]. You know, and often your school experience comes into it and your social experience as a child, whether the child whether you know that is deemed valuable or important.

Claire Waite Brown (00:25):

So, people have been put off because they’ve been told that’s not good. So, they don’t do it. So, that’s one thing. And a lot of people have come later in life to realize the wealth of what being creative means.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (00:47):

Hey, dear listeners, we need to let you know that Kevin and Stephanie offer investment advice through Private Advisor Group, which is a federally registered investment advisor. The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations to any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you. Consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision. Now, let’s get on with the show.

Stephanie McCullough (01:22):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (01:46):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit giggy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:11):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (02:21):

Hello, Kevin. Hey, listeners. Today, we actually got some exciting news. Take Back Retirement is going international. Today, we go across the pond to have a new exciting guest.

Kevin Gaines (02:33):

Stephanie, who are we talking to today?

Stephanie McCullough (02:36):

Our guest today is Claire Waite Brown. She’s the host of the Creativity Found Podcast and also a founder of creativityfound.co.uk, which she will tell us about.

Stephanie McCullough (02:48):

The reason we wanted to have her on is because she looks at this idea of reclaiming our creativity in midlife and better, and the value of it, some of the barriers we find, and how to get started.

Stephanie McCullough (03:05):

Claire Waite Brown, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Claire Waite Brown (03:08):

Thank you very much for having me. It’s lovely to be here.

Stephanie McCullough (03:11):

Oh, I’m so excited. I got really energized when we met and I learned about what you are doing in the world and the the content you’re putting out. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Claire Waite Brown (03:21):

Yeah, sure. So, I came to this from quite a circuitous route, but it’s absolutely fabulous that I’m here now. I started a podcast based on stories that I had heard from people I’d been speaking to while networking for another job I was doing at the time.

Claire Waite Brown (03:38):

And those stories were about people who loved doing a particular creative thing when they were younger, whatever that may be. And for some reason, and there are lots of reasons in the (and I’m doing my air quotes here) grownup, sensible years.

Claire Waite Brown (03:57):

Those creative activities, they’re put to the bottom of the pile. They’re not, they’re not important. And people would say, “Oh, I used to love painting, but when I joined the police force, I just didn’t have time for it anymore.” Or, or “I was academically bright so I wasn’t allowed to do the creative things at school. So, I went on and did science and then this took over my life and blah, blah blah.”

Claire Waite Brown (04:18):

And the outshot of that was then people were also finding lots of benefits when they went back to, or they found a new creative activity to do. And so, this is where the idea for my podcast, Creativity Found came from.

Claire Waite Brown (04:35):

And I started with people that I knew who had those stories. And we we talk about what they used to love, what they love doing now and why, and the barriers in between. Why they stopped, maybe why they started again.

Claire Waite Brown (04:51):

And what happened was lots and lots of people had those stories and they’re all widely different stories as well. So, it’s not the same disciplines, it’s not the same reasons. So, the show just grew and grew and grew.

Claire Waite Brown (05:05):

And I absolutely love doing the show. It’s taken (laughing) taken over my life. As we spoke about earlier about the day job[Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes, I do have proper work to do, but this is so thoroughly enjoyable to do and I’m about to get to my 100th episode in-

Stephanie McCullough (05:23):

Ooh, awesome.

Kevin Gaines (05:23):

Fantastic. [Claire Waite Brown overcross: Yeah]So, which job do you like better? The day job or the podcast job?

Claire Waite Brown (05:30):

Well, they’re very, very similar because my day job is editing books [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Ahuh!],  and I edit my own audio. And I know lots of people don’t like doing that, but I love doing it. And I think it’s because that is my mentality. It’s why I like editing books.

Stephanie McCullough (05 :47):

So, tell us kind of just generally about creativity. How do you define creativity? I think a lot of people decide, “Oh, I’m not a creative person.”

Claire Waite Brown (05 :57):

Absolutely. And it is something I have heard from very many guests now that I’ve been doing this for roughly three years. It’s, you hear a lot of the same themes and I lost, one of those themes rather is, “Well, I can’t draw. So, I always thought I wasn’t creative because I couldn’t draw.”

Claire Waite Brown (06:16):

So, in a way, we’re talking about labels here to begin with [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm yeah] And often, your school experience comes into it and your social experience as a child, whether you know that is deemed valuable or important.

Claire Waite Brown (06 :32):

So, people have been put off because they’ve been told that’s not good. So, they don’t do it. So, that’s one thing. And a lot of people have come later in life to realize the wealth of what being creative means.

Claire Waite Brown (06 :47):

So, again, it’s a label. Creative is a label, and then you’re like, “Oh, what does that actually mean?”

Claire Waite Brown (06 :52):

But if you have ideas and you put them into action, it can be anything. I mean, there’s a lot of creativity in science. There’s a lot of thinking of what could be and then working out how to make that be.

Claire Waite Brown (07:09):

So, for example, I make this podcast and I find that hugely creative experience. The books I edit, they’re illustrated nonfiction, so they look really lovely as well. I find that hugely creative when you come to the end of it. Like this is a thing that works for people, it helps people. It also, looks beautiful.

Claire Waite Brown (07 :26):

And so, that can be the same for a pot that you make [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hm hm!] in your pottery, or or a painting, or some clothes, or some food, either. So, there is no distinct answer to that, Stephanie. But it’s definitely something that people do think early on, “I’m not creative.”

Claire Waite Brown (07 :45):

And you don’t, it’s not a line that you are either academic or creative, or you are either scientific or creative, or you are either mathematical. They’re not separate. They don’t have to be separate. It’s just a sense of how you are using your words.

Stephanie McCullough (08:03):

Hmm, I love that.

Kevin Gaines (08:04):

To phrase it another way, would you say that you could still claim you’re not creative, but still have a hobby or an interest that is creative in its nature, but you’re not you know labeling yourself creative?

Claire Waite Brown (08:18):

Yes. Because and what, another theme that comes up a lot is that what you produce doesn’t have to be the important thing. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Oh] So, when you are doing that hobby, if you are enjoying doing it, and it doesn’t look like somebody else’s thing that they’ve made, and it’s not about the end result necessarily. It is about the action of doing it.

Claire Waite Brown (08 :43):

I’m, I’m building a miniature thing from a kit at the moment. And if you look closer, it’s got glue gum bits everywhere. But I thoroughly enjoy actually doing it. How it look, It’s going to look okay because it it’s very, very small and you’re only going to see if you look indoors. But you know it’s not perfect.

Claire Waite Brown (09:04):

And when you do something, what you’ve produced doesn’t have to be the important thing. And it definitely does not have to be perfect. And grownups, I think, hm quite find it quite difficult to do something if they think they might not be good at it. [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm yes]. And they judge what they produce.

Kevin Gaines (09 :23):

So, you use the old cliche, it’s the journey, not the destination.

Claire Waite Brown (09 :27):

Definitely. Absolutely, absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (09 :29):

That’s one of the things I was imagining you know would come up for people like, “Oh, it’s not worthwhile because the thing I’m going to produce at the end is ugly or not worth it.” But you’re saying it that’s not the point.

Claire Waite Brown (09 :44):

No, absolutely. And it can take time to get to that understanding. Ah, one of my guests really wanted to try printmaking and she bought a kit and she did something and she says herself, “Oh, it was rubbish. I hated it.”

Claire Waite Brown (09 :58):

And she said to me since, “One thing I regret is that I stopped doing it for a period of time.” Hmm! And and she regrets that wasted time because she went back to it later and tried again. And what she produced got better. She was enjoying it, but she thought about the end result, not about the doing.

Claire Waite Brown (10:17):

And then she’s been doing it ever since and absolutely loves it. And has learned throughout that how to produce something that other people do want to look at.

Stephanie McCullough (10 :25):

So, especially for you know the age group that your show and our show are talking to, what do you think having some kind of creative pursuit brings to this phase of life?

Claire Waite Brown (10 :38):

There are so many benefits that different people can draw on and possibly based on what they need at that time.

Claire Waite Brown (10 :49):

So, one of the ones I hear a lot of is the hmm kind of mental calm, is the getting away from other stresses around you. Having that time for yourself. Ah, which is something I think generally grownups aren’t very good at giving themselves time to just do and just be. Hmm! So, there’s that escapism.

Claire Waite Brown (11:16):

For some people I’ve met, it has been about slowing down. So, some of my guests have had bad physical health and that has helped them to realize that they’re doing too much, and they need to step back and take that time again for themselves.

Claire Waite Brown (11 :36):

There’s also hmm, there can be a social aspect. If you’re actually going out to a class or maybe you join a writer’s group online or in real life, hmm it can be that kind of connection that you need outside of the home.

Claire Waite Brown (11 :52):

I mean, for myself, I started drama and singing classes to help myself. I was suffering with anxiety. And it was through doing that, that I started to realize that I was actually lonely even though I was surrounded by, I have a lovely family. My children were older, so I wasn’t going to baby groups and things like that.

Claire Waite Brown (12:10):

And but being a freelance worker and not going out to those events, I had been lonely and I hadn’t really figured that out. Hmm and now, I meet people all the time and it’s absolutely wonderful. It’s really good discovery about myself from starting this podcast that I need people.

Claire Waite Brown (12 :28):

Ahmm! So, yeah, the social aspect is often very important for people starting an activity, can be the reason why, or it can be a lovely offshoot off of the you know original reason why.

Stephanie McCullough (12 :43):

Is there something also about the crafts or the arts that are physical? Like you mentioned pottery, right? We’re so often in our heads and doing intellectual things and just creating emails as opposed to something you can actually touch and get your hands into.

Claire Waite Brown (12 :58):

Yeah, and I think maybe Stephanie, because you told me you listened to the Chelsea Pensioners episode [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]  and I know it was one of the ladies there said about the touch was really important to her because being a pensioner, she wasn’t being touched. And touching the actual pottery, the clay had a real central experience for her.

Claire Waite Brown (13:20):

And to be fair, I went to a pottery studio, one of our collective members, and we just stood there in the shed and the potter is talking to us and we are fiddling around with the clay the whole time.

Claire Waite Brown (13 :31):

And what came out of it was Caroler over there had made a box and somebody over there had made something else just while we were talking. And your hands are just doing it. I think so. And I also, think it’s good, and this can be done as well.

Claire Waite Brown (13 :46):

Sometimes you might think, “Oh, I can’t do anything because I need to get loads of equipment out.” But I think you can sit with your family, or on a train, or in front of the telly and be doing some embroidery, for example, getting more into that zone. Even though other stuff is going on around, you’ve you’ve got your zone.

Claire Waite Brown (14:07):

The same with just doing some doodles maybe on an iPad or on paper. Yeah, there’s definitely the hmm touchiness, but also, the kind of movement and the connecting more of your mind and body than just maybe connecting to your screen. Definitely, definitely.

Stephanie McCullough (14 :25):

Hmm! I like that. There’s a woman who comes to our book club every time and she knits. While we’re talking about books, she’s just knitting the whole time. It’s amazing.

Kevin Gaines (14 :34):

I mean, and I don’t think any of us are going to claim to have any medical expertise here, but I mean, there has been a lot of research talking about the actual physical health benefits to being engaged and having hobbies and activities.

Claire Waite Brown (14:50):

I mean one of the things I didn’t research but was coming up a lot was like singing and singing together and there was an extra benefit from singing alone to singing with other people.

Claire Waite Brown (15:01):

That, again, I don’t know the absolute ins and outs of it, like you were saying Kevin, but studies were done and actually singing together had even more benefits than singing alone, which also, had its benefits.

Kevin Gaines (15 :13):

Although, to clarify the health benefits for other people is making me sing alone.

Stephanie McCullough (15 :22):

Okay. So, singing might not be your thing, Kevin. That’s okay.

Kevin Gaines (15 :25):

Hey, Hey I’m a voice built for the shower. What can I say?

Claire Waite Brown (15 :30):

Well, it doesn’t sound like it from your speaking voice, Kevin. I think I think you are hiding your bushel there.

Kevin Gaines (15 :39):

I’m definitely playing this clip for my wife.

Stephanie McCullough (15 :44):

So, Claire, did you have a similar journey? Were you creative as a child and then got away from it?

Claire Waite Brown (15 :49):

Yeah. And again, I didn’t really realize that until I started this show, until I started the podcast, Creativity Found. So, I did, I loved dance and I still do love to dance. And I was bright enough to go to university.

Claire Waite Brown (16:09):

I would’ve liked to have gone to a stage school with jazz hands and all of that kind of thing. But hmm parental, not pressure, but parental you know guidance is like, “You need to go and do a degree.”

Claire Waite Brown (16 :23):

I was lucky enough because in the early ’90s, there weren’t many places that did a degree in dance. So, but I, I did get onto, I think there were only about three universities in the UK in 1990 that did dance. There are a lot more now.

Claire Waite Brown (16 :39):

So, I went and did that as part of my degree, dance and related arts. Ahm! And I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it.

Claire Waite Brown (16 :47):

It was contemporary dance. It was all choreography, it was all about creating new things, which was fine. Ahm,  I still love being choreographed by somebody else, I have to say. I like somebody else to do the thinking and then I just do the steps. But hm yeah, really, really enjoyed that.

Claire Waite Brown (17:04):

And I remember the, I remember exactly where I was in the college building when I thought this to myself and I thought to myself like, “I’m not good enough to take this further into the world of work. So, my second favorite thing is books. So, I’ll try and get into publishing.” And that was what I did.

Claire Waite Brown (17 :24):

So hm you know, I sent my CV off everywhere. Went through a path of publishing, which as I mentioned has been has been thoroughly enjoyable. I did a little bit of dancing and kind of then aerobics because dance classes for grownups, they kind of weren’t really around [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Hmm So, you do aerobics instead.

Claire Waite Brown (17 :45):

Hm! And then I liked my aerobics and I actually, when I was maybe 41, I think, I trained to be an Exercise To Music teacher. So, the qualification here in the UK is ETM. So, I trained in that.

Claire Waite Brown (18:00):

And then that same year, a program of dance fitness started based on Strictly Come Dancing, Dancing with the Stars [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Okay, Yeah]

Kevin Gaines (18 :10):

Dancing with the Stars here in the UK?

Claire Waite Brown (18 :12):

Dancing with the Stars, yeah. So hm, two of the Strictly Come Dancing professionals started this fitness program based on the Latin American ballroom dancers. So, I went and trained in that and I’ve been teaching that ever since. So, that’s, yeah, 10 years. I’m 52 now, but it was 10 years when I started teaching it. So, I started teaching that.

Claire Waite Brown (18 :32):

Ahm! But again, it’s like I’m  the boss of it, which is fine, thoroughly enjoy doing it. But I’m the one doing the choreography. Then ah something came up. Again, this is like  9 years ago a 9 years ago for me, 10 years ago for the crew,hmm is my son was going to street dance classes as a youngster and they had a parents’ dance class.

Claire Waite Brown (18 :53):

So, I started doing street dance, which is so completely different [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]  from ah you know the upright of salsa and like all the Latin American ballroom, you know your postures right up there. My toes point all the time, they just do that.

Claire Waite Brown (19 :10):

I go to street dance and like get low, don’t point your toes. I’m like, “What? My body can’t do this.”

Claire Waite Brown (19 :17):

So, I’ve been doing that now, for nine years and funnily enough, we’ve just got back from a competition, our street dance crew where we won again for the ninth year in a row [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Woho!] for the crew. We won the competition.

Claire Waite Brown (19 ;30):

So, that is my, that is my escapism, what we were talking about earlier. That’s my socialization, that’s my escapism. That’s my utter enjoyment because our teacher, Alicia, she does all the hard work and we go along and do what we’re told and we do it very well.

Claire Waite Brown (19 :47):

And she pushes us [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. She does push us to do stuff that you know we think we can’t do. And then she pushes and and we can do it. So, hm that is my Creativity Found story.

Claire Waite Brown (19 :59):

But also, doing the podcast as well, that has given me this extra ah creative vibe that has also, sent me off exploring other areas. So, I’m doing stuff now, at age 52 that I had no idea I would be doing at age 41, let alone at age like 25 or whenever I started proper working.

Kevin Gaines (20 :22):

Well, that was going to be my question is what have you gotten out of the podcast?

Claire Waite Brown (20 :26):

It really opens stuff up, it’s quite. I’ve thought this before, like things that have happened in the past that I’ve orchestrated, for example. I orchestrated the drama and singing classes and it was because of lockdown that we couldn’t do those classes, that I thought I’d give this podcasting a go.

Claire Waite Brown (20 :44):

And you look back at that and think that led up to this, which led up to something else. It was completely unexpected [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Claire Waite Brown (21:43):

And what I also, get out of podcasting is the meeting people, I’ve already said, the actual enjoyment of doing it. Also, I’m learning more about the whole environment around podcasting and that gets wider.

Claire Waite Brown (21:05):

Obviously, I get to go to Podfest and meet Stephanie and lots of other podcasters, which was a big, big trip for me because obviously I’m from the UK, went to Florida completely on my own, not knowing anybody when I got there, but had an absolute blast.

Claire Waite Brown (21 :24):

Ahh  Stephanie and Jennifer were the first people I met there at all. And then it just goes on from there and you’re just not alone. So, that community is brilliant as well. So, I’m part of this other community now as well. And I can make my children roll their eyes.

Claire Waite Brown (21 :41):

With boredom when I mentioned podcasting.

Kevin Gaines (21 :46):

So, your trip to Florida, was that like your first big trip completely solo?

Claire Waite Brown (21 :50):

Yeah since. So, the last time I flew at all on my own was probably about 1993 because ever since then I’ve flown with my now husband who was my boyfriend at the time or with the children. So, that was the first time I’d done anything like really big like that on my own.

Kevin Gaines (22 :11):

Completely off topic, but you know one of the things about this creativity is you know trying new things or things that you forgot about. What was going through your head or did you have any anxiety or concerns about traveling on your own?

Claire Waite Brown (22 :27):

I was so surprised that I didn’t, because I thought before, my whole kind of decision process around was that I want to go to an American podcast  fest hmm conference and I want to see what that’s like. Orlando is a good one because it’s it’s quite cost effective. If you’re going to go to America, Orlando is a good place to go to from the UK.

Claire Waite Brown (21 :51):

So, there was all of that. And I said, “Do I go, do I go, do I go?” And that was what I was thinking. “I haven’t done anything like this on my own. I’m going to be nervous, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

Claire Waite Brown (23:01):

But decided to do it. Booked everything, fine or went wonderfully. Ah! My travel agent, husband, booked my flights for me. But he likes to do that because he always goes for the cheapest ones. So, he was on it, on it, on it to get me the cheapest flights. So and he did.

Claire Waite Brown (23 :17):

But then on the day, I got a bus from Oxford to to the airport, got on into the airside. It was fine, absolutely fine. And I wasn’t nervous when I got there. Had to get myself a cab from the airport Orlando to the hotel. Fine checked in fine, everything. No, it was just brilliant. I didn’t feel any nerves at all.

Claire Waite Brown (23 :38):

Even when I came to the first meetup where I met Stephanie at the ah lunchtime thing and she’s like, “No, this is fine.This is  I can do this.” So, I was very surprised about that. So, I’m going to do more of it.

Stephanie McCullough (23 :51):

I love that. So, you brought up something when you were telling us about your journey. Right! When you are the dance instructor, there’s a different level of kind of thinking and responsibility as opposed to when you’re the dance student.

Stephanie McCullough (24 :05):

And I remember hearing one of your episodes where a woman had taken some of her creative passions and turned it into a business [Claire Waite Brown overcross: Yes]  and there was a different level of kind [Claire Waite Brown overcross: Yes]   of stress or obligation. Talk to us about the benefit of just doing it for doing it and not monetizing.

Claire Waite Brown (24 :23):

It’s difficult, isn’t it? Because it comes down to value or perceived value [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] once again. So, you tend to think in our societal world right now, that it only has value if you get money from it.

Claire Waite Brown (24 :40):

But then again, another point is, well, I really like doing this. I’d like to be able to do this a lot more in time. So, at my stage in life, that means I need to earn money from doing it.

Claire Waite Brown (24 :54):

So, it is very difficult, and does it can change your relationship with the art or craft, definitely. And I do of those of my guests who have turned it into business, I do ask them about the balance.

Claire Waite Brown (25 :09):

And in fact, I have a website and a membership and I’m trying to help that the ah arty, crafty small businesses with this membership by also, connecting them with people they can outsource to because we have to do everything [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah] We have to do the social media, we have to do the finances, blah, blah, blah.

Claire Waite Brown (25 :27):

And, and  I want our creative small businesses to know they can spend a small amount with somebody else to make their life easier so they can do more of the arty, crafty stuff that they want to be doing. But it is difficult.

Claire Waite Brown (25 :45):

And it is back as I said at the beginning of this little answer, it is back to that, how people put value on it. And and value is perceived by other people as well.

Claire Waite Brown (25 :55):

So, if you are just doing something, I’m having a lovely time. But that person over there thinks that’s not valuable what you’re doing [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes]Ah It comes up a lot, Stephanie. And there’s not a there’s not a definitive answer to it either.

Stephanie McCullough (26 :10):

Yeah. I feel like there’s you know layers of resistance that are built into our brains by the time we get to this you know middle age phase of, “Oh, Oh I’m just going to go sit there and paint in a corner for three hours.” Like to me, that feels decadent. It feels indulgent. That’s the word that comes up for me [Claire Waite Brown overcross: Yeah]

Stephanie McCullough (26 :27):

And then also, I am going to be thinking about what other folks think of me when I’m spending that time, which is crazy when you bring it out in the light of day. What what other barriers do you think we face to following creative yearnings?

Claire Waite Brown (26 :45):

I think. We’ve mentioned I think that space, money.

Stephanie McCullough (26 :48):

Yeah, of course.

Claire Waite Brown (26 :49):

Money, definitely. I was speaking with someone earlier today about that, and she’s very keen on looking at affordable ways to do things, using things that you’ve got in the home already. But if you go into an art shop, for example, you may well go there and go, “I don’t know what all of this is.”

Claire Waite Brown (27 :09):

So, not only the price, but actually the amount of product out there [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yes] And you’re thinking, “I don’t know where to start.” So, that is a big thing.

Claire Waite Brown (27 :14):

“Where do I start? I think I might like this. I don’t want to spend a load of money on this because I might not like it [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah]. What if I get the wrong thing? Oh, I’m just going to go next door and have a cup of tea instead and read the newspaper.”

Claire Waite Brown (27 :25):

So, yeah, money, space. People think you need space, you need to set aside time. And I think that time is a definite obstacle. If you can do it well, like you said about the knitting, while a book group, that can help to maybe ease you into trying something.

Claire Waite Brown (27 :43):

Why? Because we feel we need to be doing everything all the time. So, at least you could be like doing two things at once. “I’m so productive.”

Stephanie McCullough (27 :50):

Right. Yes. I have felt that.

Claire Waite Brown (27 :52) :

“I’m doing two things at once.”

Stephanie McCullough (27 :53):

As I embroider in front of the TV. I’m like, “I’m not just watching TV. I’m doing something.”

Claire Waite Brown (27 :59):

Embroider, embroider while you’re supervising children’s homework. So, already, we’ve talked about the not being good at it, we’ve talked about the complication. Yeah! I think the complication is a thing as well. Do I have the brain space to get into this?

Claire Waite Brown (28 :15):

And one other thing is not advice, but something to bear in the back of your mind is that if you do start this thing and it isn’t your cup of tea, you don’t have to stick with it. It’s not like when you are at school and you’re told right, “You’re taking maths for your exam, so you’ve got to keep doing it. Or you’ve chosen to be a nurse, you’ve studied nursing, now you have to do nursing forever.”

Claire Waite Brown (28 :39):

It’s not like that. You can try something. “Oh, actually, I don’t enjoy it as much as I thought I would.” It doesn’t matter. As I say a lot, nobody dies. You can go and try something else so that you know, “Am I making the right decision?” It doesn’t matter if you make a decision now, you don’t like it, move on [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Claire Waite Brown (28 :56):

So, it’s all the kind of grownups ways, mindset, the way the way that grownups often think, whether we’ve been programmed that way through our societal life or just our own pressures that we put on ourselves that can hold you back.

Kevin Gaines (29 :11):

I mean, as humans, the concept of sunk costs (yes, there’s an actual academic term for this) does exist. I mean, we see it all the time, right, Stephanie? That people say, “Well, I’ve already committed this much time, money, whatever to investments or working with this person or my primary profession.” Whatever. So, I can’t get [crosstalk 29:33].

Stephanie McCullough (29 :33):

Or I bought this equipment for wood working….

Stephanie McCullough (29 :35):

I got to —

Kevin Gaines (29 :35):

Exactly.

Stephanie McCullough (29 :36):

keep doing it, yeah!

Kevin Gaines (29 :38):

Exactly! And, and I just can’t I got to keep going otherwise, it’s quote unquote “wasted money”.

Stephanie McCullough (29 :43):

Right

Kevin Gaines (29 :45):

But the reality is-

Stephanie McCullough (29 :46):

Which is false. Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (29 :47):

Right. The reality is the education, you learn something already. “I don’t like this crap. I’m not going to do it again.” If nothing else, you learn that. So, you did get something for this quote unquote “cost”. That’s no question, but it was just-

Claire Waite Brown (30:02):

Yeah, no, it’s a very good analogy. I’m glad you got that phraseology in there.

Kevin Gaines (30 :08):

I got to sound intelligent. Not saying I am, I’m just saying it sounded. Yeah!

Stephanie McCullough (30 :17):

Can you share a story or two from your podcast? Someone who had a really kind of surprising or interesting creative journey?

Claire Waite Brown (30 :29):

Oh, crikey, Stephanie. It’s like making me choose my favorite child.

Stephanie McCullough (30 :33):

Oh no, not favorite. Just particularly like jumps out at you or maybe surprising.

Claire Waite Brown (30 :40):

Yeah. There are some interesting stories. Ahm! The ones that always stick in my mind, unfortunately, are the ones that have the worst time in the middle.

Stephanie McCullough (30 :53) :

Yeah !

Claire Waite Brown (30 :55):

Ahm! So, one of my American guests, Fish Lee, loved his drawing at school. He was a bit of a bad boy ahm at school. He had this kind of character and, and he progressively got more unwell.

Claire Waite Brown (31 :12):

But despite being taken to various different doctors, he was continuously told he was faking it. And that he was doing things that he wasn’t able to control. But everyone was telling him that he was faking it. And he’d always loved his drawing, but he got to a point physically where he just couldn’t move.

Stephanie McCullough (31 :33):

Oh my gosh.

Claire Waite Brown (31 :34):

So, He couldn’t move. And hm eventually, I think he was in his 40s when somebody from his church phoned him up and said,” I’ve just seen this on the telly, and this person has got Tourette’s and I think that’s what you’ve got.” He said, “No, no, no. That’s not what we’ve got. Everybody told me I haven’t got that.”

Claire Waite Brown (31 :53):

And he went for diagnosis again and he was diagnosed with Tourette’s, but he was in his 40s.

Claire Waite Brown (31 :57):

And at that point, because he knew what it was, yes, you can start working with the drugs, but you he, he talks about not not fighting against it, for example, going through the waves. But also, figuring out ways that he can control that for himself as well.

Claire Waite Brown (32 :13):

So, he was able to build his life back to the point now, that because he’s back into his comic book art, he can go to the comic book conferences, he can walk across to his stand. Whereas he was completely immobile before. So, that’s one of my favorite stories.

Claire Waite Brown (32 :34):

But there are so many different stories and it’s the reasons that the reasons that it wasn’t there that are often really interesting. But of course, it’s a happy ending because we’ve come to this realization at the end. And that’s lovely that you always know with my show, you are going to get happy ending.

Claire Waite Brown (32 :57):

That personal experiences has been gone through and we’ve come out the other end and it seemed lovely.

Stephanie McCullough (33:01):

Right! What suggestions would you have for a listener who might be thinking, “Oh you know, I do have this kind of desire to try something creative, but I don’t know where to start.”

Claire Waite Brown (33 :10):

I started a website born out of the podcast and everything that I was hearing from a podcast. And I wanted exactly that, Stephanie. I wanted people who were listening to the show being inspired by my various guests to think, “Well, they gave a go. I could give it a go. I’ve been thinking maybe something, maybe this.”

Claire Waite Brown (33 :32):

Yeah. I want people to then have somewhere to go. So, I started a website and on that website, there is a directory of kits, classes, online courses that right now, predominantly in the UK, small businesses put on.

Claire Waite Brown (33 :38):

And it’s a part of going back to what we were talking about, about turning your love of art and craft into a business. Very often, if you want to sell your paintings, you can’t just make the money from that. It’s really good to be teaching it as well. So, this is always another art.

Claire Waite Brown (34 :06):

So, my website, I’m supporting those small businesses who want to keep doing their arty, crafty thing. And I’m also, hopefully helping visitors, helping people who want to try something, go somewhere, know that it’s endorsed by me. These guys are good teachers, these are good quality kits, here’s something you can go and try.

Claire Waite Brown (34 :25):

And then you can try it in your own time and in your own space. So, you may say, “I don’t want to go to class, but I could try a kit at home.” You could buy a kit.

Claire Waite Brown (34 :35):

“Yeah, actually I do want to go to a real life class because I’d like to meet people.” Here are some real life classes.” I live in the middle of nowhere. There are no classes near me. Are there any online offerings?” Yes, there are online offerings.

Claire Waite Brown (34 :48):

So, that’s just from the Creativity Found point of view. And anybody that offers those kind of things, especially online things now, because that can go anywhere in the world.

Claire Waite Brown (34 :58):

Ahm! So, that would be my advice, to just go and try something. Figure out how you want to do it. Do you want to do it at home? Do you want to do it with other people? Do have a think about expense. I mean, for example, I have a lady who ah teaches heritage traditional kilt making.

Claire Waite Brown (35 :15):

That’s going to be, you’ve got to make the whole kilt. That is a big investment [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].Ahm!  So, maybe you might not want to do that straight away. Or if you’ve been sewing all your life and you really want to make a kilt, then you’re like, “Yeah, I can do that.”

Claire Waite Brown (35 :29):

So, have a think about hmm what it is you want to do, how you want to do it, and what your costs are available to you because there is stuff that is affordable and there is stuff that is more pricey if you are ready to really push yourself.

Stephanie McCullough (35 :46):

So, I’ll tell you, I grew up with a grandmother who was a needlepointer and my mother needlepointed and I did some needlepointing as a kid. So, a few years ago I was like, it’d be kind of fun. You know, I was an empty nester. My kids had flown and grown. And I was like, “I think it’d be fun to needlepoint again.”

Stephanie McCullough (36:01):

And there’s a needlepoint shop near me. And I walked in, and it was immediately like, it was a different world that I didn’t belong, right. There I was, I asked for beginner things and they looked down their noses at me. That was my perception. They’re like, “Oh, you know we don’t do that.”

Stephanie McCullough (36 :19):

And I left and I never came back. And I was like, “Hm Hm! That’s obviously not for me.”

Stephanie McCullough (36 :23):

So, I love that you’re bringing together all kinds of different options you know so people can try different things without maybe getting turned away like I did.

Claire Waite Brown (36 :34):

Yeah.I think hm Ahm!  So, that’s a shame that you had that feeling in that shop.

Claire Waite Brown (37 :10):

But certainly, everybody that I come across that are members of the Creativity Found Collective, they really want to share and they are really open and they are there for all people, all abilities, all timescales, that kind of thing [Stephanie McCullough overcross: Yeah].

Claire Waite Brown (37 :24):

And they really want to share because they’re human beings and they know as well in ways what it’s been like to be on the other side where you’ve felt out of place and they want you to feel in place.

Stephanie McCullough (37:36):

Yeah, because it can be intimidating starting something that you know you’re probably going to be really bad at the beginning. Because you know we’ve come along in life avoiding the things we’re bad at or at least you know trying to get good at things.

Claire Waite Brown (37 :49):

Absolutely. Yeah, you want you wanna to be good. You want to look good.

Stephanie McCullough (37 :52):

Yeah. So, Claire, tell people where they can find and follow you.

Claire Waite Brown (37 :57):

Absolutely. So, very easiest place to go is creativityfound.co.uk. Obviously, that’s my website. It has all the other links on there including all my social links.

Claire Waite Brown (38 :09):

But if you want to go straight to socials, I am @creativityfoundpodcast on Instagram, Facebook. YouTube, we have a Creativity Found Podcast channel. And you can listen to the podcast Creativity Found by Claire Waite Brown on of course any of those lovely podcast apps.

Stephanie McCullough (38 :32):

Alright, thanks, Claire. Thanks for being with us.

Claire Waite Brown (38 :34):

Thank you so much.

Kevin Gaines (38 :36):

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Music Playing]

Kevin Gaines (38 :41):

I enjoyed that interview. Ah, I definitely think there’s a lot that I learned from that. Probably the big takeaway is more of a reminder, don’t be scared to try new things, explore. I mean you know we didn’t actually use this cliche anywhere, but you know you only live once, so don’t get caught up in you own, the own noise in your head.

Kevin Gaines (39 :09):

Screw it, try it. If it seems interesting, give it a shot. You know. Whether it’s you know starting a podcast in the middle of ah COVID or taking ukulele lessons.

Stephanie McCullough (39 :21):

Yes. Which is something I tried and and left behind.

Stephanie McCullough (39 :26):

But her point about what you produce is not the important thing. It’s actually the doing, the taking the time, having the experience, which is the value, right. It’s about having that time to yourself or in a group to take the creative action. I think that’s a different framing from what we might be used to.

Kevin Gaines (39 :50):

And I think that’s really important, Stephanie, to basically pound on that point. We’re talking about stuff to entertain you, to engage you, stuff you want to do. I mean, how many of us, we we always say it’s the journey, not the destination. I mean,it’s it’s  as you’re doing whatever you’re doing, that’s the enjoyment.

Kevin Gaines (40 :17):

I mean, yes, it’s fun to have a painting afterwards and being able to say, “Yeah, I did that.” But it’s all those, all the hours and time that you spend doing that, getting away from whatever, or for you know focusing and engaging in what makes you happy.

Stephanie McCullough (40 :36):

Yeah. I think it’s been so driven into us that we have to examine the value or the purpose of the thing. The value is the doing, right. The purpose is the doing, is the tapping into that different part of your brain, right.

Stephanie McCullough (40 :51):

I’m not a medical person either, but I know there are research results showing that the more of your brain you can use, the healthier you stay for longer, right. That’s why they try say do your crosswords, or your Sudoku, or learn a different language. Being creative is also using a different part of your brain. So, I think that’s part of the benefits too.

Stephanie McCullough (41 :14):

But also you know, thinking about what you enjoyed as a kid. Is there a way you could kind of tap back into that as an adult? Are there things that you’ve been kind of a little voice inside who’s been saying, “Oh, wouldn’t it be fun to try that?”

Stephanie McCullough (41 :30):

There are lots of you know, adult education classes out there. There are lots of virtual things. Maybe dip your toe in and see how it goes.

Stephanie McCullough (41 :38):

We’re so glad you’re here with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (41 :43):

And it’s goodbye from her.

[Music Playing]

Stephanie McCullough (44:46):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends, show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (42 :01):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.