Stephanie McCullough (00:00):

This is Take Back Retirement, the show that’s redefining retirement for women. Retirement is an old-fashioned cultural concept. We want to reclaim the word so you can make it your own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, financial planner and founder of Sofia Financial, where our mission is to reduce women’s money stress and empower them to make wise holistic decisions so they can get back to living their best lives.

Stephanie McCullough (00:28):

Kevin Gaines is my longtime colleague with deep knowledge in the technical stuff: investments, taxes, retirement plan rules. He’s a little bit nerdy and quantitative, I’m a little bit touchy-feely and qualitative. Together, through conversations and interviews, we aim to give you the information and motivation you need to move forward with confidence. We’re so glad you’re here.

Stephanie McCullough (00:55):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes office park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (01:05):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (01:06):

Today, we are talking to Angie Hyche. Angie Hyche is a professional organizer as well as author, speaker, and podcaster. She lives in East Tennessee, and she’s got a company called Shipshape Solutions.

Stephanie McCullough (01:19):

This experience has given her unique insights into the challenges of clutter and disorganization and the freedom and peace that order can bring, and she’s bringing that wisdom into her writing, speaking, and podcasting.

Stephanie McCullough (01:32):

I love that her goal is to help listeners and readers simplify their lives so they can focus on what’s most important, and spend time doing what they love, which aligns very much with what Kevin and I do.

Stephanie McCullough (01:42):

So, you’ll hear about her book, Unholy Mess. You’ll hear about her podcast called Uncluttered: Shaping Your Heart & Home for What Matters Most. She’s also got a ton of resources on her website, which we will be sure to link to in the show notes. Let’s share our interview with Angie.

Stephanie McCullough (02:08):

Angie Hyche, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Angie Hyche (02:10):

Thank you. Good to be here.

Stephanie McCullough (02:12):

I am really excited for this conversation because, so as I understand it, you’ve been a professional organizer for a while.

Angie Hyche (02:20):

Yeah, seven years here in a few days.

Stephanie McCullough (02:22):

Oh, congratulations, happy anniversary.

Kevin Gaines (02:24):

Oh, happy anniversary.

Angie Hyche (02:25):

Thank you.

Stephanie McCullough (02:26):

And then you also developed this expertise around the documents and the organizing of the kind of documentation of our lives. How did that come about?

Angie Hyche (02:35):

So, that’s kind of an interesting story. So, I’ve been helping people declutter and organize their homes. Some businesses, mostly nonprofits. Hadn’t really done a whole lot with paperwork except for just the basic like your mail and all that kind of stuff. And then a couple things happened.

Angie Hyche (02:52):

One was I was at a professional organizing conference, and one of the speakers, also an organizer, was talking about what she does with clients to help them get their records together as far as something happens, end of life or health-wise.

Angie Hyche (03:08):

She talked about this great resource, and I was thinking like, “Oh, this is new. I never thought about this.” Well, then she kind of really got us all thinking when she said, “Okay, so I’m betting that some of you do this kind of work with your clients.” And of course, quite a few people raised their hand.

Angie Hyche (03:25):

And then she said, “Okay, I’m curious how many of you have done this with your own records?” And we all just kind of looked around, almost no one raised their hand, and I did not raise my hand. And I thought, “Okay, if I’m going to be helping my clients with this, I need to do it first” because I pride myself on being such a proactive and a planner and all this.

Angie Hyche (03:51):

And this is honestly something that’s never been on my radar because like all of us, we think, “Oh, we got plenty of time for that. Why do I need to be thinking about this?” So, that was one of the reasons.

Angie Hyche (04:03):

Another thing is, for a while, I had an employee that was also helping me organize, and she had gotten a call from her father’s best friend. He had started just acting really confused and stuff going on. And he ended up like really quickly, he was in assisted living.

Angie Hyche (04:21):

And then Lori, my employee, had been talking to him for years about organizing his stuff, getting his records together. She’d even given him a book that was a good resource, offered to help him. And he hadn’t done anything. Well, in a month’s time, he just passed suddenly with two pulmonary emboli.

Angie Hyche (04:42):

And so, she and her brother were left with a hot mess of stuff and documents. He had very little documentation. And so, they’re dealing with their grief and a pile of stuff, and we don’t even have a clue where did he even have his money? What are we supposed to do here?

Angie Hyche (05:04):

And the combination of those two things we’re like, “Okay, it’s time to not only do it yourself, but then to try to help clients, family, friends,” that kind of thing.

Angie Hyche (05:15):

So, how did you go about tackling it yourself? So, this was something, and when I mentioned to my husband, he was like, “Yeah, that sounds good. ” And we bought the book that had been recommended, which is Get It Together: Organize Your Records So Your Family Won’t Have To, Melanie Cullen, that’s the particular book this person was recommending.

Angie Hyche (05:36):

So, we bought it and it sat there for a little while, and there were so many other things we wanted to do, and we kept looking at it. So, we finally said, okay, clearly this is not just going to magically happen. We’re not on a Saturday morning going to wake up and go, “Hey, I know what, it’s a beautiful day, but let’s get home and organize our record. Woo-Hoo, so much fun.”

Angie Hyche (06:01):

So, we said, okay, what would make it doable? Make us move forward, not too painful, make it actually happen. So, we decided, alright, let’s pick a night of the week. And we picked Sunday night, and we said, Sunday night from 6-ish to 9-ish every Sunday night, we’re going to work on this.

Angie Hyche (06:20):

Now, things came up, some Sundays, we wouldn’t do it. Some Sundays, honestly, we’re like, “I’m just not feeling it.” But there was something about having it on our calendar, having one night a week and having a limited amount of time. It wasn’t quite as painful, and it kept moving us forward.

Angie Hyche (06:38):

And you know how with any monumental task that you seem to procrastinate, getting that start is the hardest part. Then you get some momentum and then it’s like, “Oh, we’ve gotten 2 out of 10 done.” And it just kept us moving. So, that’s how we tackled it.

Kevin Gaines (06:55):

So, was this the most fun date night you two had ever had?

Angie Hyche (06:59):

Oh, clearly, yes. I would say I wouldn’t call it fun, but I would say just like with most things we put off, it’s never as bad as you think. And some of this, these hard questions, even though you put it off, there’s so much peace in knowing that you’re just going ahead and going for it.

Angie Hyche (07:21):

And it puts things in priority to think I may not be around tomorrow or in 5 years, or 10 years, or whatever. So, no, we didn’t have fun necessarily, but it was really good for us. And that we had deep conversations that we probably would never have had. Which is kind of a side benefit you don’t expect.

Stephanie McCullough (07:44):

Can I ask you to give us an example of what type of deep conversation?

Angie Hyche (07:47):

Oh, wow. And so, that kind of goes along with how the book is constructed. So, it’s not just a kind of an outline for getting our stuff together, but it’s really a step-by-step plan for whoever’s left to deal with everything. It’ll say like, “Day one, here’s who you need to contact” because we made that list. Here’s all the things.

Angie Hyche (08:11):

And so, you’re thinking through just … everybody thinks about like, okay, we got the will, we got the power of attorney. But you don’t think through things like, “Well, do we want them to have a service? And what would that be like? And how would I want to be remembered? In fact? How do I want to be remembered? What do I want my legacy to be? What are the things that we most want to pass along to our children? Not just the stuff, but the values.”

Angie Hyche (08:39):

So, I guess that’s the depth of conversation that came from this process. I mean, I get chills just thinking about it. Really thinking about what’s truly important, what truly matters.

Stephanie McCullough (08:53):

That’s all the good stuff. I mean, that’s what Kevin and I talk about all the time. We want clients, we encourage them to have those conversations around money decisions, because if we can get clear on what really matters, it makes the money decision a little bit clearer, a little bit easier. And I think anything that spurs us to have those conversations we might otherwise put off is valuable.

Angie Hyche (09:12):

Yes. And the work that you guys do with this podcast, and thinking about what’s important and what’s not — and I work with clients, “What do we do with our stuff? And what’s important, what’s not?” But it all is a priority. It’s priority decisions, and I mean, it’s really deep heady stuff. But it’s essential to not just leaving a legacy, not a burden and all that, but how you live your life day-to-day.

Stephanie McCullough (09:42):

It’s kind of the important but not urgent stuff that it’s easy to put off.

Angie Hyche (09:46):

Exactly. Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (09:49):

So, Angie, do you have a story or two you could share with us? Obviously, confidentially, anonymously, of helping clients go through these kinds of processes?

Angie Hyche (09:59):

Yeah. I have helped a few clients. I probably have had more interaction when trying to help my parents.

Stephanie McCullough (10:07):

Yes.

Angie Hyche (10:08):

So, I’ve got my mother and stepfather, and then my father, and then my in-laws. And fortunately, all of them are still living. So, I kind of have three sets, and with each set as well as like we’re siblings, we’re trying to talk about this with our siblings too.

Angie Hyche (10:25):

But with each set, we’re kind of going about it in a different way, trying to figure out, honestly, what is that key thing that we’re going to say or do, that they’re going to actually propel them to take the steps with my father who has zero tech experience, he still has a flip phone, has never even been on an iPad or computer.

Angie Hyche (10:47):

I literally like bought the book and was like, “Okay, let’s sit down together.” And then we were about to go through that process, and then his whole life turned around. He went from living independently and landscaping people’s yards to an assisted living. And we literally had to like, do a whole lot of the stuff that we needed to do for the book.

Angie Hyche (11:07):

So, now I’m kind of like, okay, so now we’ve gotten most of that stuff done. Now, we got to backtrack, but-

Stephanie McCullough (11:13):

Oh, man.

Angie Hyche (11:15):

And with the other parents, it’s hard because as an adult child, a lot of the reason that I want them to do this is because I don’t want to get stuck. So, it almost feels a little selfish and I can be a person that pushes too hard sometimes. And so, it’s been kind of an awkward, like “I’m here to help you, and how’s it going with the book?”

Angie Hyche (11:41):

And I don’t know how much progress they’re making. And each time I have to figure out, maybe I got to get somebody else doing that, because I think some of them are making some effort, but maybe not always the best.

Stephanie McCullough (11:58):

Oh, family’s so tricky and sticky, I think.

Angie Hyche (12:00):

Oh, it really is. Yeah.

Kevin Gaines (12:02):

So, when you had to jump into action with your dad, how stressful was that? Trying to get everything organized and at the same time, deal with what was in front of you as far as getting him situated?

Angie Hyche (12:17):

Oh, my goodness. So, I would say that that two-month period was probably the hardest of my entire life. And that includes like childbirth. But it literally was, he was living by himself in an apartment on a second floor. He had social security coming in, but he was making some money doing that.

Angie Hyche (12:40):

And then with a phone call, he called to say he had an appointment the next morning, and could I give him a ride and all this. And I could tell by what he was saying in his voice, like, okay, this is bad. This is really bad.

Angie Hyche (12:58):

And so, the next morning when I went to pick him up to take him to the appointment, I walked in, looked at his face, and I said, “Alright, dad, we are going to the ER. We are not going to this doctor’s appointment.”

Angie Hyche (13:10):

And as soon as I took him to the ER, of course he got admitted. We’re very lucky that he’s still alive. So, we were faced with, not only can he not go back to this apartment — it was on the second floor — watching him trying to go down the stairs, it was like, okay, he cannot come back here like at all.

Angie Hyche (13:28):

And we got to navigate him through just living through this. And then now we got to go through stuff and he’s going to have to go into assisted living. So, we had to deal with stuff. And he had been kind of a pack rat all his life. And I’d been begging him, begging him for years, even before I got to be a professional organizer to let me help him with this stuff, and he was resistant.

Angie Hyche (13:54):

Well, all of a sudden, he had no choice in the matter. Because we had to liquidate everything that could be liquidated for money for assisted living, which is incredibly expensive. And he had boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes of paper.

Angie Hyche (14:13):

Somewhere in those boxes was the information that we needed to get him set up. So, we had the physical stuff, we had the papers for the records that we needed to get him settled. And we had to get him out of the apartment, so he wouldn’t have to keep paying rent because his source of income is gone.

Angie Hyche (14:34):

He ended up staying with my husband and I in our little bitty downhill loft for a while. It was so difficult.

Stephanie McCullough (14:45):

Oh my gosh. Mad scramble.

Angie Hyche (14:47):

It was a scramble. We were going through boxes of papers in the hospital, trying to figure things, it was insane.

Kevin Gaines (14:55):

And was he in a condition to help?

Angie Hyche (14:57):

He could not help physically with any of the stuff because he was so incredibly weak for several weeks that it was all we could do to get him to just like walk from the car into our loft. I’m telling you, my experience as an organizer had never been so in demand. And it was really comforting to feel like I was exactly where I needed to be to help him.

Angie Hyche (15:25):

And although it was the most difficult month or two, it was also one of the most beautiful. Because there were things that I didn’t know about my dad. And it was only through being thrown into that kind of situation, all the stories we went through — once we got him all settled, and we got through the stuff that we had to get through quickly, then we dealt with the boxes of photos.

Angie Hyche (15:52):

And that was an even more beautiful period of time that we spent together. And it’s gotten me now very passionate about helping people take that mess of photos and like you need to hear the stories. I wanted to hear the stories about my dad when he was in middle school or whatever. That has been priceless. So, there’s so many layers to this whole process.

Stephanie McCullough (16:17):

A lifetime. Documents, photos, and stuff.

Angie Hyche (16:22):

Yes. Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (16:24):

So, I do want to get into your recommendations on the documents, but could we take another minute on the photos?

Angie Hyche (16:30):

Yeah, sure. Gosh, I’d love to talk about photos because they, more than anything else of the things that we own and have to go through really are a record of our stories. And that is probably the most priceless component. So, for him and my mother both — but especially for him, he started out with probably five boxes of photos and they were just a mess.

Angie Hyche (16:53):

And over the years, he had actually kind of said, “I know I have some pictures of Pat (my stepmother who had passed several years ago) and I know they’re somewhere in that mess.” And he knew he wanted to see them. Nobody was enjoying them. And so, a lot of those hours of his recuperation, once we got through the paperwork where we had to find the essential information, then it was sitting for hours and going through pictures.

Angie Hyche (17:20):

And so, we went from several boxes that was a big hot mess. We ended up putting together one physical album with some dates and people’s names and little stories written. And no, that album, we just took it like a couple of weeks ago to a family reunion.

Angie Hyche (17:39):

And so, we were able to sit and tell stories that never would’ve been known if we hadn’t spent that time. It was beautiful. And I was so surprised that some of the younger generations there at the picnic that I thought would have no interest in this whatsoever, were just glued to these albums.

Angie Hyche (17:57):

Like, “Look at you. You were a really handsome teenager. I bet the girls just wouldn’t leave you alone.” And he could tell about his first grade two girlfriend twins that he couldn’t decide between … it was so much fun.

Stephanie McCullough (18:12):

That is beautiful, because otherwise, it would’ve been locked in the boxes.

Angie Hyche (18:15):

Exactly.

Stephanie McCullough (18:18):

So, what do you recommend — and I promise we’ll go back to the documents. But if someone’s facing five boxes of photos, how do you curate and go through and pick what you want to keep?

Angie Hyche (18:29):

And again, it’s one of those overwhelming tasks that everybody puts off and they just kind of like keep throwing it in boxes and a closet and in the basement and whatever. And like “Someday, I’m going to deal with that.” So, I’ve been starting to do workshops where I sit with people, and I give them two hours of instruction.

Angie Hyche (18:51):

They bring a box of photos, and they go from coming in as, “Oh my gosh, I’m so overwhelmed, I have no clue what to do.” By the end of the two hours, they have a step-by-step plan. And they have started sorting through that box of photos. And then they leave with like, “Okay, I’m ready. I got my plan.”

Stephanie McCullough (19:10):

Oh, that must feel so good.

Angie Hyche (19:11):

Yeah. It’s fantastic. So, anyone that’s listening that is interested in that workshop, I’m all over doing that. So, you can contact me for that. But I would say the first step is really just getting them all in one place. So, you kind of have a handle on what all do I have? Where is it?

Angie Hyche (19:31):

Figuring out what is the end game in this? What do I want to end up with? Like for my father, he had no interest in anything digital, because he’s not a digital guy. It was important for him to have a book to look through. And I still think for most people, it’s helpful to have something physical in addition to digital.

Angie Hyche (19:50):

So, we figured out the end. The end is we want a physical book. So, then it starts what is the main work of it, which is the sorting through. And it’s a long process. However, it’s great for little snippets of time, like it’s great TV work.

Stephanie McCullough (20:08):

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (20:09):

Or you’re binging something mindless. And Photo Manager’s website has some good tips. But I also have like a series of articles on my website that will coach you through this basic photo sort. It’s an A, B, C, A. Photos are … this is cream of the crop. I would cry if this photo was lost. They’re going to be very few, but so important.

Angie Hyche (20:31):

And then the C is like the bottom of the barrel is like, “Who is this? What is this blurry face? What zoo was this elephant at?” Which is going to be a humongous pile. And then the Bs will be like, “Hmm, I don’t know for sure that that would make the album, but it’s not trash, and I’m quite sure.”

Angie Hyche (20:52):

So, what I would really prioritize is, number one, making that, what is our goal here? Gather together what’s our goal? And then just slogging through the A, B, C sort. You don’t even have to actually know your end game before you start the A, B, C sort because that’s the lion’s share of the work. And you’ll decrease your volume of photos tremendously just doing that sort.

Angie Hyche (21:15):

And doing the sort will also kind of show you what you have.

Stephanie McCullough (21:19):

Right.

Angie Hyche (21:20):

Which might actually kind of inform what you want to end up doing.

Stephanie McCullough (21:25):

I love it. Alright. So, design for your documents.

Angie Hyche (21:31):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (21:32):

Getting into the heart of it. So, how do you recommend people get their arms around — I’ll tell you, I’m the absolute worst. I’ve got piles of paper, and then I’ll start to sort them, and I’ll get to four or five piles, and then I give up and they go back in one big pile again. So, like I have no idea how to do this. Help us.

Angie Hyche (21:50)

Okay. Well, so are we talking about just paper in general, or are we talking about documents to prepare you for if something were to happen? Illnesses, end of life, whatever. I mean, because as far as how to get started, my advice will be different.

Stephanie McCullough (22:10):

Okay. I mean, maybe the sorting out is the first step of knowing what’s important?

Angie Hyche (22:17):

Okay. So, talking about just starting from, I’ve got piles paper everywhere, where do I start?

Stephanie McCullough (21:22):

Yeah.

Angie Hyche (22:22):

Alright. So, kind of similarly to what I said about photos, where first you’re kind of doing a big, get them all together (and I have an article on this on my website). The first step, I called it a paper polluter because it was kind of a funny-

Stephanie McCullough (22:38):

That’s fun.

Angie Hyche (22:38):

And some people that will be three piles and some that will be a whole room full of boxes. And paper is a tough one because within one single, let’s say like a drawer of a file cabinet is like thousands and thousands and thousands of decisions because it’s flat, it doesn’t take up much space, it takes a long time to go through. However, I would say that it’s another good thing for little snippets of time. Once you start going through stuff, you realize like 80 to 90% of the papers we have, we just flat don’t need. And most of us have spent a lifetime kind of again, just like I’m going to stick these here and someday I’ll deal with that.

Angie Hyche (23:30):

So, gathering them all together … and then there’s kind of like big categories of paper. The active papers are things like an invitation to a party next week or a bill due tomorrow, or things that are relevant to what’s going on in my life right now. And so, those kinds of documents, I have a system that I recommend where you kind of have a one container, one little portable file box or whatever you want to do, and you go through those on a weekly basis. So, I usually separate those out. Like this is important now, I’m going to keep this over here and I’m going to create a little system for that. And I can tell you about that one if you want me to. But then a big chunk of the papers is archive. Things that I don’t need to necessarily get to this anytime soon. Boy, I better keep my tax return from last year or my marriage license or those kinds of things and military records.

Stephanie McCullough (24:37):

Like those important things.

Angie Hyche (24:38):

Right. So, those kind of archive papers, those are the kind of things that do well in a spot and a system that you don’t have to access it quickly, but it does need to be in some kind of order. You don’t need to necessarily do this like micro file thing because a lot of it is just there in case. Some of it, you may end up needing. So, those kind of documents do well in a storage system like a file cabinet. I really recommend the super important ones, and honestly, you can get rid of a ton of paper by scanning things in if you’re comfortable storing things digitally.

Angie Hyche (25:17):

When we went through that, the book that I recommend, we did it both physical and digital, so that like something happens to us, our daughter in Chicago and our daughter in Wisconsin can access all that stuff immediately with all our passwords and all that. So, I would say separate out the active stuff. The archive stuff you need to keep, get it in some kind of a file system that makes sense for you. There’s no one size fits all kind of thing as far as how you get rid of it. And then dump 80 to 90% of it that you don’t need because that’s a lot of it. It’s a lot.

Stephanie McCullough (25:52):

Yeah. And how does one know what you need and what you don’t?

Angie Hyche (25:55):

Yeah, that’s a good one too. So, I’m not an attorney or a CPA or anything like that, but there are some pretty standard recommendations for like how long back do you need to keep — say, the tax returns themselves need to get, but like the documentation that you needed for the tax returns, that doesn’t need to go back way, way back. That just needs to go a few years. So, there’s several websites — I should have been ready with these.

Stephanie McCullough (26:31):

That’s okay, we can plug them in later.

Angie Hyche (26:32):

Yeah, as far as what websites I recommend for what to keep, what not to keep. And then a lot of it is just kind of based on your interest, your lifestyle, what you feel like the people following after you would need or want. So, that’s part of it too.

Stephanie McCullough (26:52):

Yeah, I guess they might be two different things. The need versus the want.

Angie Hyche (26:56):

Yes, definitely.

Stephanie McCullough (26:57):

And does some of it like the photos get to the stories of your life?

Angie Hyche (27:00):

Yes. And even with the photos, like for instance, going through my own photos, which was a whole system of doing my own … I was asking my kids like, “Do you want any of the physical photos?” For like my dad, he wanted the physical thing, and I will keep that, but I’ll probably scan it in as well too. But with my own photos, I asked my girls and they’re not interested at all in the physical photos, but they’re very interested in the digital. So, that kind of influenced my choices. But using that book, Get It Together: Organize Your Records So Your Family Won’t Have To, that is also going to be a really good way of you knowing what things you need.

Angie Hyche (27:40):

So, and like I said, a lot of people know the biggies. They know, “Oh, I got to have the will, I got to have the power of attorney.” But do they think about things like, do my kids know all the bills that I pay? Do they know about the passwords? How to get into this stuff? Do they know about real estate stuff? Do they know about people that are depending on me? What about like my business? What happens to my business if something happens to me?” Gosh, we did that book and I thought, now, most of this, I’m going to know probably. And then we get in and go, “Oh gosh, I never would’ve thought about that.” Wow, okay, that is something that, yeah, we got to find that.

Stephanie McCullough (28:26):

I think so much of this is having someone like this book walk you through the things that you don’t think of until you’re in the middle of it. And yet it’s such a gift to everyone else if you’ve been able to put it into place in an organized way before the crisis hits.

Angie Hyche (28:41):

Yes.

Kevin Gaines (28:42):

I’m glad you brought up passwords because I know lately different conferences, I go to an article you read and everything — there’s more and more conversation about making sure your digital assets and usernames, passwords, sign-ons and such are accessible.

Angie Hyche (29:00):

Yes.

Kevin Gaines (29:01):

If you can’t access them, there’s a lot of different websites that they say in the small print that none of us read that you cannot sign on for somebody else. So, you pass, technically your kids are not allowed to sign in on you. So, how do they access that type of information? What are some of the better ways to make sure that stuff doesn’t get lost?

Angie Hyche (29:25):

Well, when it comes to passwords, it’s so interesting, people’s level of comfort and also their preferred methods of doing things — like I think my parents have their passwords on a piece of paper beside their computer, which is like, okay, maybe that works for you. It’s like one of the least secure things. And then I use a password manager where I use one password. And my girls know our one password. And so, that password gets me into everything. Like I don’t have any of mine memorized. Mine are all like 7G! (stuff Like that), which is the most secure.

Angie Hyche (30:07):

And then every once in a while they want you to change that. So, I go into phone password and do the little wheel and it generates something else. I mean, if you’re relying on the piece of paper and someone is located in a different part of the country, well, forget that, or the piece of paper gets lost, or dealing with the passwords is definitely something that I don’t think most people consider ahead of the time. I like the password managers and feel like they’re most secure and probably end up being easiest for other people that have to follow along behind.

Stephanie McCullough (30:44):

Yeah, I mean, I’ve been comfortable with the password manager, but my father doesn’t think anything in the cloud is secure. So, that’s not going to work for him.

Angie Hyche (30:51):

Yes. I consider myself definitely above average tech savvy, but my husband’s an app developer, computer programmer, and sometimes, just understanding that whole cloud thing, people that work in the tech world all the time, they still don’t really get it. Like the fact that it really is way more secure than it being on my external hard drive because it’s backed up in multiple locations, and it’s hard to convince someone who doesn’t understand that at all, how in the world that could be more secure. And so, that level of comfort makes it more of a challenge. So, then in that situation, maybe you’ve got to figure out the best of the alternate scenarios.

Stephanie McCullough (31:39):

Right. And to your point about working with your three sets of parents, like what’s going to work for each one that’s going to make everybody comfortable enough to actually do the things and get us at least part of the way to where we need to be. What’s your feeling? So, sometimes I feel so overwhelmed by the magnitude of the task.

Angie Hyche (31:58):

Yes.

Stephanie McCullough (31:59):

Would you agree that taking 3 out of 10 steps is better than taking none?

Angie Hyche (32:05):

Absolutely. And if you’re using this resource that I really like, which I have no like financial … I’m not like a corporate person or whatever. I think that’s the beauty of it because I’m able to say … and you can even skip around because some of the early things have you answered questions like, “Do you want to be buried or cremated? Do you want to write a letter to your loved ones?” And my husband and I are like, “Okay, we’re not ready for that.” But let’s skip on ahead. Like we can get all the password things on there and we can get all our bills on there, whatever. And it’s totally fine to do that, you don’t have to do it in order.

Angie Hyche (32:44):

They just have designed it such that your loved ones have the tasks in the order that they would need to do them. But yeah, it’s just like for any task, you get that first thing done, and the momentum keeps you going, keeps you going, keeps you going like, “Okay, we’re making progress.” And there is such peace in knowing that if something happens that we’re prepared as much as we can be. There’s just a level of security. And so, for us now, it’s just every six months or a year, we’ll go through it all and say, “Okay, well, this has changed, this has changed. We’ve changed insurance, we need to double check our passwords, those change a lot.” So, we just make little updates and that’s super quick.

Stephanie McCullough (33:30):

Yeah. That must be so much easier than the whole first initial-

Angie Hyche (33:33):

Yes, yes.

Stephanie McCullough (33:36):

But like so much of what Kevin and I talk about, the planning is a gift to others and to yourself. And you have to do it before it’s needed. You have to do it when it’s important, but not urgent.

Angie Hyche (33:52):

It is so true. I phrase it as this could be the most loving gift you could ever give your children. The most loving way of spending your time to give them this gift, it’s priceless. And preparation leads to peace. Absolutely does.

Stephanie McCullough (34:11):

That’s a good one.

Angie Hyche (34:12):

We all like to give good gifts to our kids, we want to make them happy. Well, give this gift because it’s also a gift for yourself.

Stephanie McCullough (34:20):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Gaines (34:22):

Well, as you said earlier, not only are you doing it so they don’t have to, but if they’re having to do it, chances are there’s other stuff going on. And is that really the time they need to want to be doing this stuff on top of … fill in the blank.

Angie Hyche (34:38):

Oh, absolutely. They’re dealing with grief, they’re having to, gosh, make all the funeral arrangements. They may or may not have been left with a big pile of stuff, which that one really sets me off. And I preach that all the time. So, in conjunction with doing this, a design for your documents, I have a presentation that I do call A Plan for Your Possessions. I am just appalled at the relatively small number of people who think ahead as far as this goes. I mean, we all hear the stories about “My mom died, my dad, my grandfather, my aunt, whatever, and I had to spend six months going through their jam-packed house.”

Angie Hyche (35:19):

I’ll be with a group of seniors, and someone will say, “Yeah, no, I probably need to deal with all that stuff, but oh, they can just burn it down when I’m gone.” And it makes me so angry, I just want to say, that is so selfish, it’s not fair. It’s your stuff, it’s your responsibility. I’ve been watching, and there are a bunch of organizing shows out there, and one of the most recent is Swedish Death Cleaning, which sounds horrendous, but it’s based on a fabulous book called The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning, Margareta Magnusson.

Angie Hyche (35:55):

And so, in Sweden, it is a tradition, everyone actually looks forward to doing death cleaning, which means that you start going through all your possessions and you make a plan for it. If it’s something you’re not using, you get rid of it. It’s also about making your life the best it can be now. But in Sweden, you don’t have the majority of people being left with a pile of stuff because they are proactive on this step.

Kevin Gaines (36:19):

Sounds like a good idea. Although they could have picked a better name for it.

Angie Hyche (36:25):

Yeah, they could have.

Stephanie McCullough (36:27):

Yeah. Well, Angie, I think I mentioned to you that a good friend of mine went through the loss of her mother and her life partner, and she in part dealt with her grieving over them, and her best friend also had all passed. And she had to deal with all their stuff, both financial, logistical, and physical possessions. So, one of the ways she was dealing with her grief was to go through her own Swedish Death Cleaning and look through her possessions and said, “Would I want my kids to have to deal with this when I’m gone?”

Angie Hyche (37:01):

So good. Such a good decision and use of time.

Stephanie McCullough (37:05):

Yeah. It was the first time I’d heard the phrase and it is kind of a startling name.

Angie Hyche (37:08):

It is.

Stephanie McCullough (37:08):

But it is a gift.

Angie Hyche (37:09):

Yeah. It’s kind of a fun read, believe it or not.

Stephanie McCullough (37:12):

Oh, really? Good, good.

Angie Hyche (37:16):

And the show Amy Poehler narrates it, it’s on Hulu. It’s a little bit edgy. Like for instance, they were working with someone who … well, let’s just say there are people with lots of interesting hobbies, and they find something related to the hobbies.

Stephanie McCullough (37:33):

We’ll leave it there.

Angie Hyche (37:34):

But again, it’s all about being proactive, and really about making your life as uncluttered as possible. I’m very passionate about getting rid of clutter to make your life better now and to be more prepared for the future, and not leaving a burden.

Stephanie McCullough (37:49):

So, tell us the bad things that clutter does for you today as opposed to for the ones who are left behind you.

Angie Hyche (37:52):

Oh, my goodness, this is like three chapters in my book. Okay, you waste time trying to dig through the clutter, trying to find things you can’t find, buying things — you waste money buying things you already have, but you can’t find it because of the clutter. There is a link, scientifically proven link between clutter and depression, clutter and excess weight, clutter and decreased performance for children in schools — children from a cluttered environment. The stress that it causes, it’s like you look around and you’re completely overwhelmed by all the work that you’ve got to do because you’re looking at all your clutter. Increased risk of fire, of injuries, falls, pulling things down — I mean, I’m a pretty fit and agile person. I’m constantly injuring myself working with clients and their clutter. That’s just the top of my head list, there’s so many more.

Stephanie McCullough (38:56):

That’s a big list.

Angie Hyche (38:59):

But the biggest, I would say, the theme of all of it that I think is the most concerning is that all of the clutter, whether it’s the physical clutter in our homes are the schedule clutter on our calendar and in our mind, our to-do list. Our clutter in our mind, oh my goodness, so much there. All of it is a distraction from our priorities.

Kevin Gaines (39:20):

So, clutter in your mind, as somebody who’s has trouble remembering stuff from time to time, if I was to declutter all the stuff in my mind, reasonable to think I might be able to remember a few more things.

Angie Hyche (39:37):

Yeah. So, I’m thinking that maybe the attention clutter that is a problem for you and many of us — so, have you heard of David Allen’s book? Getting Things Done? The original was in the eighties. We try to remember too many things in our head. And so, David Allen calls these open loops. And he says, we’ve got to get the open loops, the things like, “Oh, I got to stop by the store, I need to call so-and-so and email this person, and oh, and I’ve got this coming up, da-da-da.” We need to get those out of our head. Because our brain is not a storage unit, and into trusted systems.

Angie Hyche (40:13):

And those trusted systems can be scraps of paper or reminders on our iPhone or Trello or Google tasks or whatever — get them such that in a place where we know that that information will be available and we’ll have a reminder of it, or it’s on a list or something. So, that’s a lot of the mind clutter, is the stuff we’re carrying around, trying to remember when there’s probably a better way for that little piece, better place for it to be stored than in our brain.

Stephanie McCullough (40:50):

Oh, Angie, I love what you’re doing, and I feel like it’s a gift to those that are able to benefit from your workshops and your teaching. How can people find more about what you’re doing in this world?

Angie Hyche (41:00):

Thank you. So, probably, the best way to find me is on my website. My business is Shipshape Solutions and my website is shipshape.solutions. And so, I don’t work in homes with clients anymore because my focus now, is my writing and my speaking. So, I love giving presentations to groups, virtual or in-person (I prefer in person). But on my website, you’ll find 101 newspaper articles, how-to videos, information about my book, Unholy Mess: What The Bible Says About Clutter. I’ve got a podcast, Uncluttered: Shaping Your Heart & Home for what matters most.

Angie Hyche (41:40):

On my homepage, you’ll find a sign up for my newsletter. And I’ve got three freebies on there. My Top 10 Organizing Tips, my Top 10 Organizing Products, and The 10 Commandments of Organizing. So, probably reach out on my website, shipshape.solutions. Really love doing the in-person workshops and presentations on organizing all types. Whether it’s talking about the clutter in your mind or it’s organizing your photos or figuring out how to not waste time. All of that, I just geek out on all that and love to share.

Stephanie McCullough (42:15):

That’s awesome. Thank you so much for being with us.

Kevin Gaines (42:17):

Fantastic. Thank you.

Angie Hyche (42:18):

Sure, sure. It’s been a pleasure.

Kevin Gaines (42:28):

Great interview. I love that we always get some of the more interesting guests out there. Stephanie, I got to say one of the biggest things she said, and it just transcends this episode into a lot of the other things we talk about; when she was talking about her father, and her having to just jump in and handle everything at once. Two months, that was the hardest of her life. I mean, and I think that just amplifies what we’re trying to avoid and help people with, is getting everything organized when we can, not when we have to.

Stephanie McCullough (43:04):

And I think the other point that she made that could help nudge people along (myself included), is that once you get started, it’s never as bad as you think it’s going to be. You take the first step. I love that she shared this book, Get It Together, which we’re going to link to as a kind of gives you a template of how to start it and how to tackle it. You get some momentum and then that peace, knowing that it’s done and that it’s in place and you have this gift for your loved ones or whomever is going to have to pick up the pieces.

Stephanie McCullough (43:39):

We’re all at some point gonna leave this earth, or many of us will have situations where we’re no longer able to look after our own affairs while we’re still around. So, it’s such a huge gift. And then also, that time with her father led to the deep conversations and the sharing of stories and the beautiful time that it was.

Kevin Gaines (43:58):

Exactly. And it’s through that organizing we spend a lot of time talking about pictures because, yes, it’s something that has to go too, but as you guys both were talking about, once you start that process, it expands the entire universe of what you’re dealing with. Now, you’re not just organizing pieces of developed film, you’re dealing with what has made your family, your family. And when those older generations go so do those stories unless they’re getting passed down. And that’s something, I don’t want to oversell it, but it’s something very magical about going through that.

Stephanie McCullough (44:40):

Completely.

Kevin Gaines (44:40):

I’ve been at Wakes where I remember specifically when my father-in-law passed, standing around the kitchen, a bunch of us talking and each of us sharing just individual random stories as they come up. And it may have been stories we told hundreds of times, but for some of us it was the first time we’re hearing them. And it’s like, it put them into a whole different light more in a humorous sense, but it definitely created a closure. I mean, and that’s what going through these pictures and learning about your family, just the little one-off stories can do for you.

Stephanie McCullough (45:18):

Well, and also, I mean, what if one waits to do this until the loved one has passed away? Then you just have a box of anonymous photos, and you don’t necessarily know these are the twins in first grade that he couldn’t decide which one he wanted to be his girlfriend. Like what an adorable endearing story attached to what otherwise would’ve been an anonymous photo.

Kevin Gaines (45:38):

Exactly. Because I mean, again, you sit there, you look on the back of the photos, “Oh great, they wrote down somebody’s first name and a number.” We assume it’s the age. We may or may not know who that person is.

Stephanie McCullough (45:51):

It’s true.

Kevin Gaines (45:51):

So, you need the context, you need the stories to go with it.

Stephanie McCullough (45:55):

Yeah. And then on the practical side, of course, I like her suggestions about how to tackle the paper or digital stuff. The active, what needs to be actually dealt with, what needs actions attached to it. And then the archives. The stuff that you just might need in case, or I might need someday. And picking your own system. I like that there’s no one size fits all, but come up with a system. And of course, as we always say, make sure your loved ones know what the system is, where the things can be found when the time comes because the time’s always going to come in one way or another.

Kevin Gaines (46:27):

And depending on what we’re talking about — maybe not the active stuff, maybe not the stuff I might need somewhere down the road. But the stuff you may not need, but whoever’s taking care of you or taking care of your estate will, you may want to make sure that it’s in a format or structure that they can deal with as opposed to you. Because quite frankly, you’re dead. You don’t need to be a format that you like. It’s got to be a format that can work for them. Especially when we’re talking about digital assets, the passwords and things — piece of paper is all well and good for you, but for somebody on the other side of the country, not as practical.

Stephanie McCullough (47:09):

Right. And if it’s all in a locked box in your house or a locked file cabinet and no one can find the key, that doesn’t help either.

Kevin Gaines (47:18):

Absolutely.

Stephanie McCullough (47:18):

We hope you found this helpful and thought-provoking and please let us know if it spurs you to take some action. We’d love to hear. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (47:30):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (47:35):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Voiceover (47:50):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered Investment Advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.