Stephanie McCullough (00:06):

Welcome to Take Back Retirement, the show for women 50 and better, facing a financial future on their own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, and along with my fellow financial planner, Kevin Gaines, we’re going to tackle the myths and mysteries of “Retirement,” so you can make wise decisions toward a sustainable financial future. Through conversations and interviews, you’ll get the information and motivation you need, to move forward with confidence. And we’ll be sure to have some fun along the way. We’re so glad you’re here. Let’s dive in.

(00:39):

Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

Kevin Gaines (00:50):

Hello, Kevin.

Stephanie McCullough (00:51):

Today we have a guest, Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. Lindsay is a social worker, financial therapist, author, and speaker, and of course, it’s the financial therapist part that really intrigued me. When I first met Lindsay, we just had such a really rich conversation about all the emotional sides and human sides of money. She, as you’ll hear, entered the fields of mental health and then added the financial expertise along with it because she found so many of her clients were dealing with money issues. In fact, she wrote a book a couple of years ago called The Financial Anxiety Solution, which we’ll talk about quite a bit and which I really found interesting. It’s actually written as a workbook with lots of great things to walk through. Here we go with our conversation with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (01:47):

Oh, I’m happy to be here.

Stephanie McCullough (01:49):

I am really excited to have you on the show. Congratulations on your book.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (01:54):

Thank you. Yeah, it’s been out for a couple of years now and it still feels strange when people say congrats. I’m like, “Did that happen?” But it did. It was not a mirage. I, in fact, did write a book. So, thank you. Appreciate it.

Stephanie McCullough (02:05):

I mean, you can tell there was a lot of work that went in there and what I really love is the bringing together of the educational parts, the mental health parts, the personal finance parts with the very practical, “Here’s some exercises. Try a few,” as opposed to, “Here’s one exercise that’s going to fix you forever.” You threw a whole bunch of stuff in there, which I really appreciated.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (02:29):

Yeah. The reason for so many different exercises is that we just know that not every exercise is going to resonate with every single person, and depending on where you’re at in your financial anxiety journey, some areas might be more interesting to you or more pertinent to you. In other areas, you might be like, “No, I’m cool. I got that.” So, I wanted to give people a menu of options to choose from, so it doesn’t feel overwhelming like, “Oh my God, there’s so many exercises to choose from,” but much more, “Oh, I really know that my financial thoughts are really driving my financial anxiety. I’ll focus on that chapter,” or, “You know what? I really need to get better about being compassionate and kind towards myself when I make a money mistake. So, I’ll hang out in that chapter.”

Stephanie McCullough (03:14):

That’s awesome. Can you share just a little bit about your personal journey and how you came to be doing this work?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (03:21):

Yeah, never thought I’d be doing this work. My background is in clinical social work. I went the route thinking I was going to do mental healthcare work, and I did and still do, to be honest. But in my first social work job after finishing with my master’s degree, I got my first paycheck and lo and behold, it was less than what I earned as a waitress and I was embarrassed. I felt like I had squandered my financial privilege. My parents had ensured that I wouldn’t have student loan debt, and so I just felt super wasteful and ashamed and not really sure what to do. I felt like I followed the exact prescribed path that everybody told me I was supposed to do, “Go to school, go to grad school, get a job and you’ll be okay,” and then just feeling totally underwater.

(04:10):

And so, I did what a lot of people do. I checked out a bunch of books from the library on personal finance and consumed and consumed and learned and learned, and basically every book told me the same thing. “It’s your fault you’re not making enough money. It’s your fault that you’re not saving enough. You should probably stop going out to eat. If you didn’t drink those lattes, you’d be okay.” It just did not sit right with me that here I am, trying to improve my financial wellness, and I’m being told that I’m not working hard enough. Meanwhile, I was doing refugee resettlement work in a nonprofit, working many hours, not sleeping at all because the work was incredibly emotionally taxing and I didn’t have the time to side hustle.

(04:53):

At the point in time when I got my first job, Uber didn’t exist. Instacart wasn’t a thing. We didn’t have those types of apps that allowed us to easily side hustle, and I was so physically unwell that I was unable to do things like pick up a waitressing shift on the weekends. And so a year into that job, I mustered up the courage to negotiate a raise, again, having read all the books and followed all the things, and my supervisor not only told me, “No, Lindsay, you don’t get a raise,” but said, “In fact, you should be really thankful that you have a job.” My story isn’t uncommon. Anybody who’s in a helping or healing profession has heard a very similar thing. Nurses, teachers, social workers, anyone who’s in that area has been told, “You didn’t choose this field because money matters to you.” But turns out, even if money isn’t your driving force, you still need money to live.

(05:46):

Right at that moment, I knew it was time for me to find a new job, that no matter how much good I was doing in the world, struggling to pay my bills was not… I just knew that I couldn’t continue on doing it. So, I got a better-paying job in the field of social work still, and my insomnia resolved. The anxiety and depression that had spiked during my previous job also came back into a manageable place. I realized that this whole “spend less” is important, but also advocating for yourself, earning more, and acknowledging that the way we feel about money impacts the way we feel in all aspects of our life is so important. I never sought out to go into the world of financial therapy. I didn’t know it was a thing, but my lived experiences really propelled me in that way. And then simultaneously, I was seeing clients with depression and anxiety, and as you probably know, a lot of them were struggling with money stuff.

(06:49):

My job as a social worker was not to help them with their finances, in my opinion, a long-term way. It was very much, “Oh, call this 800 number. They’ll help you negotiate your bills,” or, “This person can pay for your electric bill for the month.” But it wasn’t sustainable, long-term education. And so, I just felt like there was this missing piece. Personally, I’d experienced under-earning and the stress that it caused and then professionally, I saw that the way we were treating money was very surface-level and I just wanted to ethically bridge the gap of how our emotions impact our relationship with money and vice versa. Fast forward to 2018 when I got certified in financial social work and then later in financial therapy, I hung my virtual shingle and started seeing clients in the field of financial therapy, and that gets us to where we are today.

Kevin Gaines (07:43):

When you were seeing clients before you became a money therapist, how often did it turn out that money was a concern or one of the reasons that they were coming to you in the first place?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (07:58):

Such a good question and what’s interesting, Kevin, is that rarely would I even ask that outright. In a first session, we call it an intake session, you would ask questions about, does your job cause you stress? But we didn’t talk about whether or not you were being adequately compensated or whether you earned enough. Often, the money stressors would come out several sessions into an appointment versus right away. I would say, most people would come saying like, “Oh, I’m really stressed. I’m really anxious. I’m having symptoms of depression,” but they wouldn’t be able to clearly say, “Hey, I think a lot of my anxiety and depression and stress is related to the fact that I don’t have any healthy way to have a budget,” or, “I don’t know how to talk to my partner about money.”

(08:48):

There wasn’t even the language that they had to be able to describe what they were experiencing outside of words like stress, depression, and anxiety. I mean, ball parking here, I’d say 75% of the cases, money was a big factor, but it was so foreign to even include money in therapy that we often didn’t get into it for several sessions. Now obviously, things have changed where I really lead with that, but before I led with that, it was buried in our therapeutic work.

Stephanie McCullough (09:20):

It’s almost a shame. You want it to be just part of regular, ongoing therapy conversations as opposed to having to… I mean, you didn’t know the profession exists. A lot of patients, clients probably don’t know it exists. So, how are they going to go out and find the help?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (09:35):

Yeah. We don’t talk about money. When you go to a therapist, wherever you’re at in your therapeutic journey, most of us know that your therapist is going to talk to you about things that are probably a little bit uncomfortable, but you don’t necessarily expect your therapist to say, “Hey, what’s your relationship with money like?” We don’t even have that in our jargon to even think that that would be something that comes up, even though we know money impacts all aspects of our lives.

Stephanie McCullough (10:10):

So true. What I love about your approach in the book, and I’m sure in your work, is that you’re talking about exploring people’s ability to address their own needs, which is really fascinating. You’re trying to give people the key to work on their own stuff. Can you talk about that approach?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (10:31):

Yeah. I think in so many fields, both personal finance and in therapy, it’s very prescriptive, “Do this and then you’ll feel better.” But do this for who? What is actually that person’s priorities? What we know is that most people have a good understanding of the way things like health works. We know that we should probably go to sleep at a reasonable hour. We know we should drink X glasses of water a day and move our bodies in some sort of way, but most of us just don’t do it. It’s not because we don’t know, but it’s often because the way in which it’s been told to us is very prescriptive and punitive and Shame-based. We know that sticks actually aren’t great motivators. Carrots are much better motivators. But time and time again, so many industries think that, “Oh well, I’ll shame you into being good with money,” or, “I’ll shame you into sleeping well at night,” or, “I’ll shame you into eating healthy.”

(11:28):

We just know that doesn’t work. And so, taking the approach of what matters most to you and allowing you to have autonomy over what you need to get in order financially first actually makes an incredible difference. Yes, most people in personal finance are going to say, “You need an emergency fund first. Then you need some short-term goals. Then, when you’re ready, you can start investing.” But everybody is different and while I would never argue that nobody needs an emergency fund, for some people, negotiating for a raise is going to come more easily or be more important than starting to think about investing right away. And so instead of saying, “Nope, you can’t do this until you do that,” we have to give people the autonomy to have their financial lives line up with what matters to them and what motivates them first. That’s a much better approach to longevity in behavior change.

Kevin Gaines (12:24):

So, you said journey just recently and in the beginning, you said financial anxiety journey. I’ve never actually heard it phrased that way. What do you mean by that?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (12:39):

Oh, good question. Coming from the world of mental health, I think it’s important to normalize a certain level of anxiety. So often we try to eliminate any feeling that is slightly uncomfortable, anxiety being one of them. I can’t confidently sit here and say, “Oh, everyone loves feeling anxiety. Everybody loves that butterfly in your stomach, racing hearts, sweaty palms, frantic thoughts that come up when we have anxiety.” But if we tell people, “Oh, avoid anxiety at all costs,” we’re often not equipping people to tolerate a little bit of discomfort that comes with anxiety. What I mean by that is anxiety in small, short-term doses, let’s call it, is actually a protective factor. Having that short-term burst of anxiety can help us to take action on things that we need to do and it’s normal to experience.

(13:38):

When I talk about our financial anxiety journey, rather than saying, “You are going to eliminate the sensation of anxiety ever from happening again, once you read this book,” my philosophy is, “If your anxiety is an eight out of 10 and 10 is excruciating, debilitating anxiety, we want to get it below a five,” which means, you might feel a little queasy when you log into your QuickBooks account, but not so queasy that you can’t get through looking at your books for the month, or you might feel a little bit nervous to sit down with your spouse and talk about your budget, but not so nervous that you can never get the words out of your mouth. When I say financial anxiety journey, I’m not saying you started at 10 and you end at zero. It’s that you start up somewhere high and you learn how to dial it down enough, so that you are able to tolerate rather than trying to eliminate it altogether.

Stephanie McCullough (14:33):

Yeah, I love that you talk about normalizing and this whole issue of money still being a taboo that we’re not allowed to talk about. Especially, I tend to work with women. Women learn by sharing our stories. If we’re not allowed to share our money stories, then we feel like we’re all alone and that we don’t really learn that other people also have similar struggles and worries and maybe these beliefs. You talk about some of our money beliefs and how early we pick them up. How often is that a piece of what gets in people’s way?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (15:06):

It’s huge. When it comes to what we think about money, financial behaviorists have found that by the age of eight years old, most of us have more or less decided what we think money is in our lives, meaning we already have an idea about what we’re allowed to save for, spend on, if money is good, if money is bad, if we’re allowed to talk about it. We already assigned so much meaning to money by the time we’re about eight years old. If we imagine our inner eight-year-old selves driving the financial decisions of a 30, 40, or 50-year-old, it makes so much sense why so many of our decisions seem a little bit strange when we take a step back. So, examining what messages we learned about money as children can help us to decide, are those messages ones that are currently helping me or currently impacting me negatively?

(15:59):

It’s not about judging them, but it’s about saying, “Hey, this lesson about money is actually causing me far more anxiety than it actually is benefiting me,” or, “This particular lesson about money, I actually don’t truly believe it. I’ve just been carrying it around subconsciously for years and years.” You mentioned stories. So to take a fake story here, let’s say two children grew up in a household where money was tight, and the parents were often arguing about money. You can have kids who grew up in the exact same environment who internalize the messages about money differently. Kid A sees the parents arguing about money and immediately decides, “You know what? I don’t care about money. All money does is make people fight. I’m just going to go live my life, trust that things will fall into place, and not stress out about it.”

(16:51):

But then, they become 30, 40, 50-year-old and they’ve been bobbing along. They don’t have a retirement account set up. They don’t have an emergency fund. They’re chilling and they’re coasting and they’re not worried about money, but they also haven’t thought through what will happen when they’re no longer able to work. Then you have kid B who heard the exact same messaging and decides, “Oh my gosh, I’m going to talk about money all the time because if I don’t talk about money, I’m going to argue about it.” So, they’re constantly talking to their friends, their partner, their boss at work. They’re constantly negotiating about it and it’s front of mind. They’re always thinking about side hustles and how to earn more money. It’s not that one is better or worse than the other, but it’s about saying, “Which of these messages is actually beneficial for me and which of these messages is no longer serving me that I can let go of since I’m no longer a kid in my parents’ household?”

Stephanie McCullough (17:40)

One of the things that I saw in your book that I don’t think I’ve seen in many personal finance books is the whole body check-in, listen to your body signals. Talk to us about that aspect and how it can help us on the financial side and the anxiety side.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (17:58):

We have really made it a habit of separating our body from our thoughts in our culture. From the time we are little, we are trained to tune out or to ignore any signals that our body sends us. Think about if you’re a kid and you have a stomach ache, oftentimes from a parent or even a school nurse or a teacher, they’re like, “Oh, shake it off. Walk it off. Stop thinking about it. It’ll go away,” versus going, “I wonder why you have a tummy ache. I wonder what’s going on.” This became super apparent to me. One of my earlier social work jobs was at a pediatrician’s office where oftentimes, I would work with kids who’d been discharged from the ER for stomach pain and there was no physical reason for them to have stomach pain.

(18:48):

Then what was it? It was anxiety, because as kids, our bodies are really good signals at saying, “Hey, danger. Something’s wrong. Something’s up.” But as adults, we learn how to turn it off. When I say get in touch with your body, I’m saying actually notice the signals that your body is sending you when you are engaging with your money. When it comes to looking at your paycheck, if you check in with your body, are you feeling calm or is your jaw clenched and are your shoulders crunched up by your ears? And then, just being really curious. Why might looking at my paycheck be causing me this tension? What is this intensity trying to tell me? Or if you go to talk to your partner about reconfiguring the spending plan, now that inflation’s so high and groceries and gas are costing so much, why are you getting butterflies on your stomach?

(19:40):

Why are you feeling that tackiness in your palms? What is that trying to tell you, versus going, “Oh my gosh, I’m so nervous, I better avoid this.” Actually, listening to those signals and being curious can help us. Over time, what we want to do is start creating neutral or positive associations with money. If every time you’ve had a conversation with your partner, you have butterflies in your stomach and those tacky palms, we want to start having some conversations with your partner that leave you feeling calm or empowered or grounded and we want to start rewiring our brain and body to have some neutral or positive associations with money, since so many of us have negative or fearful or anxious-based relationships with money.

Stephanie McCullough (20:25):

How does one start to wire in that neutral or positive association? Often, when I give a talk, back in the old days when I was in front of the room, I ask, “What’s the most common emotion you feel about money? Write them all down.” Way more we’re negative than positive. So, I get that the evidence we need is to actually experience it, but do you have any concrete suggestions there?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (20:47):

Sure. Right now, it’s really popular to talk about abundance mindset and money mindset. As you can tell for my tone and my voice, for those of you listening, I’m doing it with a bit of an eye roll because going from, “Oh, I feel really fearful and avoidant about money,” to just telling yourself, “I feel great and money flows to me abundantly,” it feels, I mean, I’m just going to call, really cheesy and out there and weird, which is why so many of us are like, “Affirmations, mantras, that’s like way out there. I’m not doing that.” It’s because our brain is really good at keeping us safe and if we go from thinking, “I feel uncomfortable about money,” to trying to force ourselves to say out loud, “I feel great about money and it flows to me abundantly,” our brain’s going to go, “You’re freaking lying to me.”

Stephanie McCullough (21:36):

Exactly.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (21:39):

I say it’s super important that when we are working on improving our mindset with money, we stop at neutrality first. Rather than, “I’m terrible at money,” jumping to, “I’m amazing with money,” we say something more neutral, more fact-based that our brain can actually get on board with. It might be, “Every day, I’m working on understanding money,” or, “I’m confident that someday, I’ll be able to understand what my financial planner is telling me,” or, “Someday, I’ll feel confident enough to ask for clarification from my financial planner.” Why? Because that’s much easier for our brain to go, “I can buy that. That makes sense.” Once we get comfortable in that truth or in that neutrality, then we can maybe start tipping a bit more towards positivity. But if we go from negative to positive, our brain’s going to go, “You’re lying to me.” That feels weird and rejective versus, how can I create a bridge to positivity by stopping through neutrality first?

Stephanie McCullough (22:41):

I like that a lot.

Kevin Gaines (22:43):

Interesting you said couple times there, helping you approach your interaction with your financial advisor, financial professional or your planner, whatever. Let’s go to the other side of the table. Financial planners, advisors, retirement plans, whatever we call in ourselves this week, what’s some of the biggest mistakes we make other than, I know jargon’s always number one on the list and everything, but…

Stephanie McCullough (23:14):

Looks like Lindsay’s got a few answers here.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (23:17):

I do.

Kevin Gaines (23:18):

I just see an overload coming, pouring out of her.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (23:22):

Well, what I want to say first coming is that I really get excited and I empathize with financial planning professionals because you all have so much data and such a wealth of knowledge that you’re eager to share with your clients and y’all are problem solvers by nature. When somebody comes in and says, “Hey, I just can’t seem to figure out how much I need to put away so that I can retire and send my kids to school,” you guys are like, “Cool, here’s the answer,” and you hand them a financial plan. I mean, I’m summarizing a little bit here, but you essentially say, “Okay, cool, here’s how you do it.”

(24:03):

When we jump to problem-solving without inviting the client in on the journey, it often feels prescriptive. Remember a few minutes ago when I was talking about when we prescribe people things to do, it often feels like a stick rather than a carrot, even if we don’t intend it to, because we’re so eager, financial planners are so eager to problem-solve that they don’t pause to say, “Tell me a little bit about why you want to retire at this age,” or, “Why is it important for you to pay for your child to go to college?” To start figuring out some of your clients’ reasoning behind these goals, because a lot of clients often come to financial planners because they’ve heard things here or there.

(24:44):

“I think I’m supposed to be saving for retirement,” “I think I’m supposed to pay off my mortgage,” “Somewhere somebody told me annuities are a great idea.” They come in with some of these ideas. They throw a couple of things your way and you’re like, “Okay, cool. Here’s the plan,” versus saying, “Tell me why. How important is it for you?” And then what we can do is, just how I said in my book how I offer people a menu of options. The intention is not to overwhelm people, but it’s allowing people to choose what fits best for them. As we all know, there’s more than one way to save for retirement and save up for a child’s school, but which way is the best way for your client?

(25:26):

And so asking them, “Is it really important for you to get to retirement as soon as possible, even if that means forgoing vacations?” Or, “Are you more comfortable delaying retirement for a few years so you can take some nice extended vacations along the way?” Or, “What does it mean for you to own a home versus rent?” Really eliciting from them what they want their lifestyle to be so that when you help collaborate with them on a financial plan, they’re much more likely to adhere to it. Research has found that when financial advisors include feeling words, anxiety, fear, worries, desires, things like that, in their financial planning, their clients are more likely to rate them as trustworthy and then are more likely to follow through on the advice.

(26:14):

You can have the best financial plan in the world, but if your client doesn’t feel like you get them, even if the plan is in alignment with what they told you, they’re much more likely to do something that a lot of us in today’s day and age tend to do, which is ghost you. I had a great financial onboarding planning and then I just miss every meeting and all your emails go unanswered. It’s not, again, about the plan being bad or poorly written. It’s about not including the client as fully as they probably want to be included because for us in the financial planning space, us meaning you all, I’m not in the financial planning space, the jargon, the tools, the plans are second nature. But for most clients, those things are brand new and so coming back to where they are, meeting them where they’re at in their life can be a helpful way to get them on board and to ensure that it’s a collaborative process rather than a prescriptive one.

Stephanie McCullough (27:14):

Yeah, I definitely use that word collaborative a lot and I mean it. I know the jargon and the lingo and the stuff, the tools, but I don’t know what kind of journey that you want to go on. One of the exercises you’ve got in your book that I also do with clients is the values exercise. Let’s narrow in on some values because then… I mean, I do it because I feel like, “All right, if you’re going to be telling me certain financial goals that maybe the numbers aren’t quite adding up, let’s dig back into the values that are underneath it.” Maybe, you just picked up this goal along the way like you had to have a beach house. Well, why? What’s the beach house for? What’s the value that you’re trying to elicit? What’s the core-desired feeling? What is it that you want to create with that? Oh, maybe there’s other ways to do that too. Let’s get creative there.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (28:05):

Yeah.

Stephanie McCullough (28:05):

Why do you include the values exercise in your book?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (28:09):

Yeah, I include it because a lot of people have goals, but when I ask them why, they don’t really have a good reason.

Stephanie McCullough (28:15):

Yeah, right.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (28:16):

The beach house is a great example because then I know I’ve made it. Made it compared to who? Compared to what? A lot of people grab onto goals based on what they think they’re supposed to be doing versus, what’s important for me? What’s important to my family? What’s important to my partner and I? What are the things that actually matter to us? Again, when we set goals in alignment with our values, we’re much more likely to achieve them because they’re more meaningful to us.

Stephanie McCullough (28:45):

Exactly. Love it.

Kevin Gaines (28:49):

What you’re saying is the beach house goal isn’t necessarily the true goal, it’s what it represents. When you’re thinking you have to check these boxes, “Oh, I need the beach house,” or the cabin or whatever, spending the time to understand why is much more important than identifying the particular piece of property.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (29:15):

Exactly. And so with this beach house, this cottage idea, what I often ask people is, “What would that mean to you? What are the things that would support?” I’m trying to elicit some values-based words like, “Oh, I just really relaxing,” or, “I like getting away,” or, “I like connecting with my partner.” So, I’m trying to elicit those things and figure out, are there other places in your life where we can plug in connectedness, relaxation, et cetera, that you aren’t already doing that might be more financially achievable? If a second home, if you’re looking at their numbers and you’re like, “Oh, we can do this but it’s going to be a huge old sacrifice,” you might want to say to them, “What would happen if I could guarantee you a month away every year in a little cottage and you could get some of those…and it means you don’t maybe own it? Would that still work for you?” Trying to get creative about how to problem-solve for those things.

Stephanie McCullough (30:14):

Yeah, I totally agree. One of the topics that you mentioned in there is procrastination. I have to tell you, I’ve never experienced this myself. I’ve just done. Because that is something that comes up with a lot of folks around the money stuff like, “Oh, that’s so unpleasant. I’ll get to it.” It sits at the bottom of the to-do pile, and then it doesn’t get done. Just like updating one’s will. “Oh yeah, I know I have to do that, but that’s such an unpleasant conversation.” Can you share a little bit of your perspective on procrastination?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (30:46):

Yeah. To me, procrastination is the other side of the coin on perfectionism, meaning a lot of us don’t get started on things because we want to do it the right way and if I can’t do it the right way, then I won’t do it at all. A lot of us wouldn’t necessarily identify as perfectionists, but if we think about procrastination and perfectionism as being ways that avoiding dealing with discomfort manifest, it can be much easier to see why we do what we do. “I want to do things perfectly, so I don’t have to feel anxious.” “I’m going to put off doing my will because it makes me pretty uncomfortable.” So, if we think about perfectionism and procrastination as ways to deal with those uncomfortable feelings, it makes so much more sense, which again is why earlier, Kevin, when we were talking about that financial anxiety journey, it can help to go, “Can I tolerate being a little bit uncomfortable, so I can finalize my will and trust with my lawyer?”

(31:42):

What would it feel like after the fact? What would it feel like to go to bed and know that that paperwork is finally signed off on? To think about those things. Often when it comes to procrastination, I think it’s a little bit of perfectionism coming in and sometimes, it is quite literally distraction that turns into perfectionism. So, a great example of that is Netflix. If I’m like, “Oh, I’m just going to watch a show. 20 minutes, not a big deal,” but then it keeps on playing, that’s how distraction and procrastination are related. You mean to take a quick 20-minute distraction and then before you know it, there is a human-sized indent on the couch where you’ve been parked for three and a half hours because if that show just keeps playing enough, the distraction to procrastination as well.

Kevin Gaines (32:32):

You’re saying we’re not doing our clients a service when we insist on having a four-hour meeting and that concludes with a 20-item laundry list of things they have to get done by next week?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (32:42):

100%, yes.

Kevin Gaines (32:43):

Okay, all right. You can make an adjustment in my presentation. All right, good to know.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (32:50):

This is actually super helpful though, Kevin, because what I usually say is it’s fine to have that 20-point checklist, but what I would do is literally put 17 of them in a different Google Doc or somewhere else and say to them something along the lines of… Show them the 20 and say, “Which three do you want to get done by the time we meet next? I’ll keep the other 17 on our list to touch base on,” because most of us, if we see a laundry list of 20 items, we’re going, “I don’t know where to start. I don’t know what’s more important. How do I begin?” It’s that overwhelming procrastination.

(32:43):

But if we say, “Okay, you have three things you have to do before the next meeting,” that’s much more manageable. And then, what that also helps to do is build up some of that momentum of, “Oh, I actually can do financial tasks. I actually am able to follow through on some of the collaborative planning that my advisor and I worked on.” So, it also helps to build up some self-esteem for them too, when they’re able to come back to you with that checklist of three things checked off, versus coming back and going, “Oh, I didn’t do 17 of them.”

Stephanie McCullough (33:54):

I just had an email from my client this morning and she’s like, “I did this thing and it feels so good.” Last week, we talked to her and we’re like, “Look at you, you’re getting stuff done.” When she first came to us, she felt overwhelmed and frozen by there’s too many things to do. She said, “Yeah, but when I have a plan and the prioritized order…” Plus, trying to make it as it’s not just like, “Emergency fund.” It’s, “We’re going to move this much money from here to there.” This…

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (34:23):

Yeah, totally.

Stephanie McCullough (34:23):

Making it a little bit more concrete. Lindsay, obviously, we could talk all day, because you’ve got such great insights and I really love this field. There’s so much inhuman experience that is I feel overlooked by mostly folks in my profession but as you have pointed out, just not talked about enough out there in the world. So, we appreciate the work that you’re doing. How can people find you and learn more?

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (34:52):

Well, thank you so much for having me. It’s always so fun to talk to folks on the other side of the aisle and what I mean by that is I have a lot of therapist friends and podcasts that I’m on, but to get to talk to people who are in the planning space is really so important. So, thanks again for opening up your platform to me. My business is called Mind Money Balance. My website, podcast, and Instagram are all of the same name. So, you can check me out there and learn a little bit more about how to invite in those emotions when it comes to your money.

Kevin Gaines (35:26):

Great. Well, I appreciate you spending time with us. This has been definitely illuminating, shall we say.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (35:35):

Great. So happy to be here.

Stephanie McCullough (35:36):

Thanks, Lindsay.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (35:39):

Thank you.

Kevin Gaines (35:40):

Thank you.

(35:43):

Well, what can I say? I know, here’s something I never say, there’s a lot to unpack here. But seriously, there really is. That was actually really good. I enjoyed a lot of stuff she had to say. What I drew the most on, Stephanie, was this idea of a financial anxiety journey. Not how do you tamp down the anxiety or how do you overcome, but it’s how do you embrace and work with. I had never heard it phrase that way, and I think that could be a really constructive approach.

Stephanie McCullough (36:21):

Reduce, but not necessarily eliminate, because that’s a pie-in-the-sky idea.

Kevin Gaines (36:26):

Yeah. I mean, we’d like to say that we’re worry-free, anxiety-free, but the reality is none of us are.

Stephanie McCullough (36:34):

No, for sure. But at the same time, you and I have seen people where the actual emotions and anxiety, depression issues around money do get in the way of actually taking action, which I think is the definition of clinical anxiety when it’s actually being a roadblock in your life.

Kevin Gaines (36:56):

Right. But I mean, that’s also why we spend a lot of time talking with clients about their entire life, not just looking at spreadsheets and making projections, predicting with absolute certainty what your numbers are going to be in 30 years’ time, but seriously talking about this type of stuff because it can be a problem if it’s not built into the process.

Stephanie McCullough (37:24):

Yes, and I would say it is connected. We all have emotions around money that are often in the driver’s seat, whether we acknowledge it or not. So, let’s talk about this stuff. Our financial goals are probably rooted in something else as we touched on in the conversation. There’s some need or desire or worry driving a lot of the financial goals. So, I’ve always believed that we had to talk about the emotional stuff in order to have a useful conversation about money.

Kevin Gaines (37:58):

Because I mean, frankly, if we don’t build this into the process, then, as she was discussing, other stuff’s not going to get done because there’s going to be this, and I don’t think she used this word, but self-sabotaging because, “Oh, I don’t want to deal with this,” or, “I’m being held back and I just don’t want to address this,” or, “If I do this, then bad things will happen.”

Stephanie McCullough (38:22):

Right, or, “I haven’t been heard.” I appreciate her pointing out the idea of prescriptive advice versus a collaborative solution to come up together. But I really appreciate Lindsay being so open about the beginning of her journey and sharing that feeling of shame when she opened her first paycheck, that she’d worked so hard, gotten so much education, and was still being paid so little. I think, again, that emotion of shame is still very common and a lot of people hold it inside and don’t talk about it and figure out a way to deal with it.

Kevin Gaines (39:02):

That’s really important. I mean, you need to be honest with yourself, even if you don’t want to share your story with everybody else. Just knowing it within yourself can help you figure out what the next steps will be and the courage to make them.

Stephanie McCullough (39:22):

I think that is often discussed as one of the ways of dealing with shame is to share it, even though that feels like the thing that you can’t possibly do. But it does break down the overwhelming feeling of it.

(39:34):

We’ll be linking to Lindsay’s information in the show notes, including her book. Thanks so much for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

Kevin Gaines (39:42):

And it’s goodbye from her.

Stephanie McCullough (39:46):

Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only, Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

Disclaimer (40:01):

Investment advice offered through Private Advisor Group, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Private Advisor Group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material, are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice, or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor, prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.