00:06

Stephanie McCullough: Welcome to Take Back Retirement, the show for women 50 and better, facing a financial future on their own. I’m Stephanie McCullough, and along with my fellow financial planner, Kevin Gaines, we’re going to tackle the myths and mysteries of “Retirement,” so you can make wise decisions toward a sustainable financial future. Through conversations and interviews, you’ll get the information and motivation you need, to move forward with confidence. And we’ll be sure to have some fun along the way. We’re so glad you’re here. Let’s dive in. Coming to you semi-live from the beautiful Westlakes Office Park in suburban Philadelphia, this is Stephanie McCullough and Kevin Gaines of Sofia Financial and American Financial Management Group. Say hello, Kevin.

00:50

Kevin Gaines: Hello, Kevin. 

00:51

Stephanie: Judith Kurnick is a second act coach, a speaker, and a writer. She guides lawyers, executives, and business owners in escaping the corporate life and designing a next chapter that promotes continued relevance and improved well-being. What a great description of a mission in life. What’s great about Judith is that she brings all the insights and learnings from her 35-year career as a strategic communications executive and consultant to the work with her clients, along with the research she does on this age of life, the second act, and ageism, and so many issues that impact people in the age group of our audience. So thrilled to invite Judith on the podcast today. Judith Kurnick, welcome to Take Back Retirement.

01:39

Judith Kurnick: Thank you so much. It’s great to be here.

01:42

Stephanie: How about let’s start this way. Can you share with us what you do now? And a brief overview of how you came to be doing it.

01:49

Judith: Absolutely. Well, what I do now is I work as a coach with lawyers, executives, and business owners over 50, particularly, that high achieving group, to help them escape the corporate life and create what I call their second act. And the reason is because it’s what happened to me. I was for more than 30 something years, a driven C-suite executive. And I experienced a kind of burnout. I suppose maybe a better word for it is a wakeup call. I didn’t listen for a long time. It wasn’t until I had physical symptoms, including a heart procedure, that was the wakeup call I couldn’t ignore. But I realized that I couldn’t continue at the pace that I was driving myself at. At the same time, I didn’t want to stop working. I didn’t want to give up who I was in that way. But it was a very challenging path to decide because it felt like all or nothing. I was in my 60s, and you think, It will be my last job. I spent a fair amount of time, over a year, really searching my soul and talking to friends and trying to ask myself what was next for me. I realized that one of my favorite things in the world had been when I was studying coaching as part of a master’s degree in at Penn years ago. And that I had been coaching informally in my work. And I thought, This is what really spoke to me. And I want to help people, I’m going to give them the help that I wish I had received. I started in Houston, where I was still working and gradually transitioned into doing this full time. But I have to say, I haven’t looked back. It’s been the most rewarding part of my life in many ways. And there is such a need. I know we’re going to talk more about that. 

04:26

Stephanie: What is it about the coaching approach, that once you learned it, you even used it in your existing job? What is it that makes it so intriguing and impactful?

04:37

Judith: Well, first, it’s the philosophy, to me, which is that I’m not the expert. And you’re not a patient, that you as a coachee, if that’s the word, have within you the potential to create your own answers. And my job is to partner with you, to help you see things perhaps from a different perspective, who notice things that are going well when you might not, and to begin to puzzle out what it is that you need. So, what it’s about, is asking powerful questions. Now, I will say that therapists do that too. But I am not a therapist, I would never claim to be a therapist, and I work a lot with people who see therapists there. We work parallel in a lot of ways, although there is overlap in some ways. But this is an opportunity to help people address whatever it is that they want to change in their lives. And what you get is a sense of agency, that yes, you can do this. And so, as a coach, I challenge people very often to stretch. But I also help them celebrate wins. And, you know, we can look at the model of athletic coaches, where they’re helping people do their best be their best. And it’s just wonderful to see how that can make a difference in someone’s life.

06:15

Stephanie: Why do you think it’s hard for these successful driven individuals to shift their mindset to looking at the second act?

06:24

Judith: It’s a fascinating question because it’s not the same for everyone. For example, business owners have a particularly difficult time because they birthed a baby. And how do you walk away from your child? I have one right now, who is struggling with that big time. Not only that, but his son is also the CEO, he’s already the chairman emeritus, and he’s still having trouble. So, it’s partly that, it’s interwoven with who you are at a very deep level. And that’s very true for a lot of lawyers as well, I find that executives have varying degrees of it, because, obviously, you are part of a larger institution, and you don’t have the same physical and emotional connection to the work at the core. But it is different for lawyers and business owners than it is for executives. But it’s all about facing change, facing the future. I just had lunch with a retired gentleman who was a managing partner at one of our big firms. And he said that he started planning for retirement at age 44, when he got his first financial advice through his company. At the time, he wasn’t working with a firm, he was working with a big company in the city as counsel and the adviser said, ‘The two most vulnerable positions in any company are the entry level and the top. Because whenever somebody new comes in at the very top, they neglect to put their own people around them.’ So, this guy was already at the top in what he did at 44. And he said, ‘I took that to heart, and I am so glad that I did.’ Now that’s true, even more today. But when you add on to it, the whole anything could happen point that we have just had driven home by the last few years. The value of planning is so much more evident. And yet, I have friends’ colleagues who still say, ‘Oh, no, I’m just going to keep doing this. I love it. It’s what I want to keep doing.’ And it’s as if they simply don’t want to look at possibilities.

08:57

Kevin: So, this isn’t just flipping a switch. This takes a while. How long would it take somebody to get the mindset adjusted? Is this something you want to talk start thinking about 10 years ahead of time? Is it six months? What’s involved in the process to get people ready to enjoy their second half?

09:22

Judith: I think, again, a lot of it is very individual. It seems to me that there is an almost biological change around approaching 60, or soon after. Your perspective on life is changing, whether you know it or not, because you’re closer to the other end than you are to the first, to the beginning, and you begin to see things and experience things differently, even if you’re not conscious of it. So, for people at that stage, it may take a little less time than someone who’s so much younger, maybe 50, 55, who may be perhaps has a retirement dream, or some sense that they want to move on but has no timeframe. So, I think that the closer you get to and over 60, the more likely it is that you’re going to be thinking in a year, or two- or three-year window. It takes at least six months, in my experience. It could be longer, but it’s like any change. It depends on where you start.

10:40

Stephanie: I think that’s a good point. What are the types of things that you explore with people? And the types of questions you ask them to dig into maybe homework, maybe planning?

10:52

Judith: First, the way I describe what I do, which is me, not necessarily anybody else, I think of it like buying a house. And there’s three phases to the work that I do. So, the first stage or phase is creating your checklist. When you buy a house, you have, do you want a fireplace? Do you want a kitchen? Know what it is you want, and to figure that out, you have to start with looking at who you are. So, I work with people on a series of readings and writings and assessments that help them look at everything from their accomplishments that they’re proud of, to the things that drive them at work. And this is important, because every one of us gets different psychic payoffs from working beyond money. So, for one of us, it might be having an impact on people around you. For another person, it might be solving a tough problem. And there are usually five to six that you can narrow it down to out of like 30. And I use a tool that was developed by some people that I know who have written a book about this called Don’t Retire, REWIRE! They have this in the book, and you can use it in the book if you want to just try it on your own. But the idea really is to identify what are your top five drivers. And when you know that you add that information to the other information about who you are, what you’re proud of stuff. By the way, after you do the accomplishments, there’s also a set of determinations of what your strengths and skills are that you used to accomplish those things, you begin to sort of see, it’s a one-page document of who you are. Now, because who you are now could be very different than who you are even 10 years ago, and certainly we’re in college or started your first job, or whatever it is. So, it’s fun, people really enjoy doing this, because they’re asking themselves things that they’ve never taken the time to. And they never would’ take the time to do on their own. So that’s phase one, creating this checklist. 

With stage two, you’re really taking the checklist on the road and comparing it with what’s out there. It’s like going to the open houses. And you look around and you say, ‘This house has everything I’m looking for.’ And you put your bid in. And maybe it’s even accepted. But then you have to go through inspection. And it might fail inspection. So, part of stage two is coming up with the scenario, or several, that make sense for you. And it could be a different line of work. It could be the same work in different ways or using your skills in a different way. It could be consulting, and in some cases, people decide to stop working for pay, but continue working in ways that they feel valued, and having more control over the other parts of their lives. So, there’s no specific outcome that is a given here. But the scenarios are so important because, as I said, you never know what’s going to show up. You’ve got to investigate, and the process of investigation and research is part of this stage two. And the example I love to give is, you see the thing that’s perfect for you. And then you realize that there’s going to be construction for the next year next door. So, what are all those hidden pieces for you? This is where you look at finances. Forgive me, Stephanie, because I know this is your work. I don’t agree with financial advisors who start out with the question, how much do you need to retire? That’s what I was asked. And I answer, ‘How do I know?’ So, at the same time, most people have a number in their head that they need. Or they have an idea that they can’t give up things. So, they don’t allow themselves to dream. And that was the case for me for many years. But once I knew what really, frankly, lit me up inside, I had this picture of it. There was a lot I was willing to give up. I decided to move back to Philadelphia, and I gave up my car. And I haven’t regretted it. And it serves a lot of things because it’s good for the environment. I wish Uber hadn’t gotten that much more expensive. But it’s still a lot less than owning a car and living in this city, I don’t need it. That’s just one example of saying, here’s what I want, here’s what I’m willing to change to get it. Whereas if you’d asked me years before this, would you live without a car? It was like, What? Are you crazy? Part of it is really giving yourself permission to see every possibility first, doesn’t mean you’re not going to come back and test it. But I do all of this in a very structured, methodical, measurable way. We set measurable goals to start with so people can see progress. And it’s very important to do that. I certainly learned that in my professional life. I think people who are professionals value that opportunity. So, part of my job as coaches to keep making sure that we are reassessing how we’re doing against goals. But so eventually, when you land on that, that scenario that works for you, you really know it, because you’ve been through the ones that don’t work. Just like when you’re at that house, it might not be the one you would have picked right away, but you’ve come through that journey. 

Phase three is really getting you ready to launch. I’ve had clients that are starting a new business and they need a whole set of supports to help them which I often have resources for or can provide myself. Other people need a new LinkedIn profile, I work with that. I’ve helped people do their exit press releases, negotiation with their boss, whatever it takes to get you from A to B is part of that third phase, so people can end up either starting their new life with a very clear plan, depending on the timing.

18:29

Kevin: I’ve got to echo what you’re saying about financial advisors saying, ‘How much do you need to retire?’ We took an episode to talk about the fallacy of this mythical number, episode 25. Of your clients, how many of them come to you with an idea of what they want to do once they end their career and just need help figuring out how to get there versus, I’m not going to work anymore for XYZ company, what the hell do I do? How many of them come to you with some sense of direction versus I just never thought about it and now I got to figure it out?

19:17

Judith: The vast majority are what you just said, they are paralyzed. They are feeling stuck. Either because they think they have no choice and have to keep doing what they’re doing but can’t because of physical or family reasons or whatever. Others are burned out, but still feel stuck which was sort of my situation. And others are, and this is maybe the most common, they feel both things at once. They feel torn about wanting to continue working, but they know they’re reaching an age when they’ve got to do something else because it’s going to come and bite them if they don’t. I have clients in their 70s and 80s, who were still working. And they know this is their time, they’ve got to be thinking differently, but they can’t do it on their own. Because people that I work with are so used to giving their all to their work. These are people that usually work 12 hours a day, who take it home on the weekends, because it feeds them. Or because it’s the only thing they’ve known. I had a lawyer who worked for a firm, and she was very much involved in business development. She wasn’t practicing law. But she was officially on a four-day week. But she was being paid for and working five. A lot of it is also boundary setting. And I will say that I have had clients who came to me saying, ‘I know I need to stop.’ And through the work, they realized they didn’t need to stop yet. They just needed to learn how to set boundaries. I don’t tell people what the outcome of the work should be for them. But I often help them work through conflicting impulses. And help them see that sometimes you can be conflicted and move forward on both fronts without making a decision, because the decision will become clearer. But it’s been comfortable with that, with knowing that you don’t know. 

21:56

Stephanie: I love your stage one, because I think doing some of those assessments and inner exploration might open up scenarios and possibilities that people had never even imagined.

22:06

Judith: It’s done that forever, almost everyone I’ve worked with. And that’s one of the great joys of doing this. I had a woman who owned her own interior design business. And for a lot of reasons, which you probably can envision, interior design is one of those fields like journalism, and many others that have changed so much because of the internet. And in the old days, they hired you, you did all the pre-work in in identifying the actual pieces that they were going to buy. Now, they can do that on the internet. So even though they would hire her for her expertise, they would constantly be micromanaging the process and saying, ‘Well, I saw this, I want to go do that, or I want to do that.’ And it drove her crazy, she was totally dissatisfied with her entire day. Every day was fighting with clients. So, we did this whole work together with this process. And this is the other piece I want to point out, is that most of the time, people also have an impulse at this stage to do something that gives back in some way. Even if it’s for pay, they want to make a different kind of impact as coaching does for me. So, in this case, we discovered the profession of senior move manager, which is a growing field where people, either individuals or their families, who are aging and can no longer live in their homes or just choose to move to a senior living or smaller. Residents need help, packing, figuring out what to keep and what not to keep, how to get into their new place, what they can take what they can’t. This is the kind of work she loves. She does it for her clients, but she now is going to be opening her own firm here doing that. And it uses all the things she loves, and at the same time, she can give back. So, there’s an example of something she would never have thought about. 

24:40

Stephanie: In a recent newsletter, you talked about this idea that the strengths that get us to age 50 are not necessarily the same strengths that will help us to thrive after age 50. Can you explore that a little bit with us?

24:55

Judith: This is not my original idea. This is a reference to a column that David Brooks wrote in the New York Times, which I highly recommend. It was recently reprinted. I think it was originally from 2015. But he talks about resume virtues versus eulogy virtues. And it’s basically the things that you need to show to get a job on a resume or one set of skills, and the things that you want people to remember you for and the accomplishments that you want to feel valued for in your life are a very different set. And at some point, it’s important to make room for both. I think that’s where I may differ from David is that he talks about switching. And I don’t. I call it diversifying your energy portfolio, which financial advisors, for some reason seem to like. But truly, that’s what it’s about. Because there has been a lot of work done on well-being. And a lot of it was started here in Philadelphia by Marty Seligman, who started the whole positive psychology movement. And a lot of that work has been around studying what makes people flourish in life. And frankly, all these folks that talk about grit, and resilience and all that they all started under Marty. And the idea was, he said, we’ve spent, and he was an expert in depression, we studied all the things that are making people sick, but we haven’t studied what makes them well. That is work that I love to shine the light on, because they they’ve shown that there are certain categories that we all need to focus on to flourish. And meaningful work is one very important one. 

But the second one is deep relationships. So, the kinds of relationships that you can turn to when something goes terribly wrong. And a lot of my clients, count their friends in their client base, the people that are their customers are their friends. And then I say, ‘I that the kind of friend that if somebody died, and you needed them to hold you up, are those that people you can turn to?’ In many cases, they may have people from their past that they haven’t been in touch with. But it’s about consciously investing in nurturing relationships that matter so they can really sustain you. That’s an energy focus that you need to begin thinking about. 

The third one is community. I count that as a larger perspective on community, which is really being part of something bigger than yourself. And so, it also includes belief, and faith, and whatever that means to people. Some people, the community is a service organization, others it’s a church, or a religious affiliation. But having a sense that you belong to something. And that is often fulfilled by work. Again, you belong to an office to a culture to an institution, but that has to be replaced. And you need to be intentional about that. That’s where joining a club or becoming more active in your church or your synagogue or whatever it is. These are all things that you do before you take your leap if that’s what it becomes. 

The last thing is physical and mental self-care. And so many people do some form of exercise. It’s amazing how many don’t still, but of course, the work is in the research is so clear that if there’s any one thing that is best for your brain and your body as you get older, almost at any time in life, it’s physical exercise. So intentionally planning for that. And it may mean you need somebody to hold you accountable. You might need a buddy, whatever that is, we work on that. And finally, the mental self-care. And that’s where you get into this mindset of possibility versus the beginnings of gloom and doom. And that’s where the whole focus on aging and what that really means versus what society means by it comes in because we are surrounded by outdated ideas about aging.

30:12

Kevin: Now, you touched on this or hinted around it earlier, when you were talking about why people are needing your services coming out of the blue, but specifically, ageism. And maybe being forced out of their positions, and being forced to start their second half before they’re ready to, what have you come across? And what have you found working with your clients?

30:40

Judith: Well, a lot of the people that I work with are conscious of an experience that isn’t spoken yet. So, they feel like suddenly, everyone’s younger, there might be language that they don’t quite understand, references that are happening, the feeling, suddenly, when they look around that they don’t want. One client said to me, ‘I’m reaching my sell by date,’ which is a feeling that you get, obviously, there are other people who are given a clear signal that their time is coming. And either way, it’s a terribly difficult emotional transition that does not get any attention in our society. We have rituals for divorce, and marriage and birth and death and graduation. But this is a new life stage. And I think part of it is, as you know, I’ve said before, we are the first generation living this, because many of our parents didn’t expect to live much past their 70s, or maybe 80s. A lot of us, thanks to technology and health and all kinds of advances, COVID willing, can expect to live into our 90s or even beyond, and that’s a third of our lifetime. Part of it is we don’t even think in those terms. We just think, there’s work and then there’s something else and then eventually, this end, whatever that is. But this is not the case. And so, the research now on longevity is showing that many people in their 60s, can expect to have 10 to 15, more very productive years. And society doesn’t realize that. I have to say, of course, COVID made it worse, because we’re all lumped in with the fragile, vulnerable, whatever. And then, frankly, age has very little to do with that. I’ve heard so many stories of people of every age being whacked by COVID. And then others who are older, who never really had much of anything. So, it’s understandable that of course, the nursing home moment was the frightening one, and with good reason. So, the very old, clearly were vulnerable. But then there’s this whole group of us in the middle who took that in without even realizing it consciously. And then of course, if you watch any TV, certain shows, suddenly it’s, ‘Help, I’m falling, and I can’t get up.’ I know all these drugs for aging, and there’s a lot of ageism, that isn’t conscious.

33:43

Stephanie: I think that ties into something that you talk about, and we talk about all the time, the importance of intentionality, and maybe try to counteract that societal message.

33:55

Judith: Very much. In fact, I’m a member of the Encore Network, which is a group that is focused on intergenerational learning and connection and collaboration. And there’s a fascinating website called changingthenarrative.com, which is all about how the language we use often makes a very subtle difference in people’s perspective. So, for example, the difference between calling someone a senior and calling them an older adult, that it’s much more respectful and less ageist to call someone an older adult. Everybody’s older or younger than somebody else. It’s not a label. It’s an adjective. The same idea with calling somebody grandmotherly or grandfatherly, what does that mean? It could be anything and even terms like the silver tsunami, and one that I did not even think about, but I often use, and I have to work on is still working, still something, as if it’s a surprise. It’s very subtle, but we’re in a lot of ways, perpetuating the thing that we don’t want.

35:28

Kevin: Especially, he’s really talking about the still working phrase, as you implied, a lot of people use that about themselves. So, would you say that there’s a mindset change needed en masse in order for people to address hate this? And it gets back to the premise of our podcasts, which is, retirement isn’t you work up until mandatory retirement age, then you go sit in a rocking chair. But a lot of the people coming to you basically are trying to address that perception, correct, that I’m not ready for the rocking chair?

36:08

Judith: Oh, my gosh, yes. Kevin, you just hit on probably the core thing that I have been dealing with for me, as well as my work. I hate the word retirement. I try not to use it. Because I think the connotation is so loaded, it doesn’t relate to me. And it’s funny how, if you look at all these books, they’re coming out a mile a minute, books about unretirement, the don’t retire rewire, there’s the reinvention, it’s anything but retire. I think there’s a reason for that. And that’s why I started calling myself a second act coach, rather than a retirement coach. Because the reality is, the traditional view of retirement is going to be fine for a lot of people. If you’ve been working your whole life, and you’ve been looking at that date on the calendar, you’ve got the circle around the date, and you’re going to be getting your Social Security, whatever it is, is going to take care of it for you. And it’s all about your standard of living and you’re going to be fine, great. I have nothing against people who are in that mindset. But I also know that for me, and people that I know, who are high achievers, that isn’t enough. And in fact, even for others who came before us, the image of going off into the golf course, very often hid how many hours they’re spending in the bar, and it’s laughable. But it’s also very sad, because frankly, a lot of people were dying only a couple of years after retiring. And these days, there is Ken Dychtwald, who is the king of the new Age Wave movement, said that the average retiree spend something like 47 hours a week in front of the TV. Now, you can imagine, first, that’s sedentary, second of all, you’re probably eating, it’s absolutely a waste, not only for you, but for society. And he is suggesting that we have a White House level, elder core created because, that’d be great. There’s so much that this generation can be giving in so many ways. I think on the larger level that you’re talking about, Kevin, it’s about rethinking. But since we are the first generation to do it, we have to prove why that’s important and what can be done. I think the more we can talk about it, and the more we can convince employers to recognize that having somebody work, perhaps less is beneficial to integrating new people to continuity of knowledge and transfer of knowledge to the bottom line, and it enables people who still have a lot to give but may need to slow down a little bit. The chance to really keep contributing, or a lot of my people are interested in doing what I do but starting something new of their own. A lot of that is about mindset in and confidence that it’s possible.

40:08

Stephanie: Before we wrap up, I want to tie that into something that you shared with me, which was this mountain of research around our attitudes toward aging, and how that affects our individual experience of it.

40:21

Judith: Totally. This is both scary and thrilling. The idea and it goes back to this positive psychology research. But they’ve connected the mind and the body, you know, there was all that self-help stuff in the ’90s and beyond. But now the neuroscience is backing it up that people who are optimistic about the future, that their future, or 11%, likely you’re to live past 85, and people who are not optimistic about it. And that means not that everything’s going to be great, but that they have some influence some agency over their own future. The other one that, to me was even more powerful, was Yale School of Public Health research around people who have a high risk of Alzheimer’s, it’s a cohort that have genetic risk, that those who had a positive view of aging, were 50% less likely to get Alzheimer’s than those, again, with an equally high risk genetically had a negative view of aging.

41:45

Stephanie: That’s remarkable when you think about it, that our own attitudes have such a big influence, potentially, on our health, not only how long we live, but how well we live.

41:54

Judith: We used to think that genes were, you know, a big piece. And until the last 5, 10 years, I think researchers thought that genetics had maybe 20%. Your lifestyle might influence and, of course, might influence the other 80%. But there’s been new work done now that we have ancestry.com, of all these family trees, up for grabs up for study. And what they found doing the analysis of those is that genetic risk factors only had about a 7% influence on lifespan. So, again, it doesn’t it’s a correlation. It’s not necessarily a statement that you can make a difference, 93% of the time. But you’re not condemned by your genes. And that the choices you make, can have a greater impact than you imagined.

43:08

Kevin: Well, that’s very hopeful, because and you recently wrote this on a blog post or something, your opening line, ‘I’m not afraid of death, but I’m afraid of declining.’

43:20

Judith: That was a quote from a client. 

43:22

Kevin: Stephanie and I both say, that’s frequently conversations we have with our clients as well. There’s an acceptance of death, not, ‘I’m going to die.’ But it’s like, ‘I’m going to die, it is what it is,’ but it’s everything that happens up to that point, that’s where the concern, or to put a positive spin on it is, that’s the opportunity to do something about that.

43:48

Judith: That’s right. And people don’t realize how much opportunity there is, particularly through your 60s and 70s and early 80s, and beyond, depending on your case. I have a client who is still practicing actively at 84 years old and has all kinds of dreams still. And thank God his health is good. But he has a partner with dementia, and he’s planning on doing everything he can to plan to take care of her and, of course, taking care of himself. And yet he knew with all his knowledge, he’s a lawyer with his own firm is a small boutique firm that he wouldn’t give be able to give himself the time and focus to figure out how to do that. He knew that he needed do that, but he needed help getting it done. And I have seen that over and over again with clients. And this is a different version, Kevin, of what you were saying, of do they know what they want to do? No, he doesn’t know what he wants to do, or didn’t when we started. But he has come full circle now in the past two weeks and said, ‘Now I see why what I’m doing now isn’t working. And I think I’m going to need to go of-counsel, I’m going to need to take a different path, because she’s going downhill, and I need to give more time to these other things.’ So, sometimes time is the factor. But if you’re not intentional about what you’re trying to do, and you’re not paying attention to what’s happening in a conscious way, it’s harder. It’s not impossible, and people can do it on their own. As I said there plenty of books. But it’s always helpful to have accountability and another perspective. I think that’s what I love most about coaching and being able to give people resources, I do refer people to financial advisors to people that can help them with Medicare, that can help them with Social Security, that can help because I don’t claim to do any of that. But part of it is being well connected. So, it’s great to be sort of a one stop shop sometimes.

46:26

Stephanie: Well, Judith, I always love your newsletter, there’s such good prompts for having these own thoughts yourself. So, if our listeners would like to follow you, or perhaps even reach out to you to work together, how would they find you?

46:39

Judith: I have a website, it’s www.judithkurnickcoaching.com. And you can sign up for the newsletter, and a complimentary consult call, I call them discovery calls. I don’t charge for them. And what I like to say is that even if we choose not to work together, I try to make a difference and help you find some clarity in that call. Just to see where what might work for you.

47:16

Stephanie: That’s wonderful. And we’ll certainly link to that in the show notes.

47:21

Stephanie: All right. Well, thanks so much for being on the show today.

47:25

Judith: My pleasure.

47:29

Kevin: So that was interesting. As always, I’ve got to say, I don’t think we’ve ever had a bad guest. But Judith was one of my favorites, she hits on a lot of points that we work with, on a daily basis, especially the skills to thrive, really hits, because you’re talking about trying to find meaningful work, deep relationships, sense of community, and maintaining your physical and mental self-care. These are conversations we’re having all the time. And it’s a lot of stuff that people realize we have trouble with. It’s like, what am I going to do now? And that’s a very open-ended conversation and doesn’t have a quick, short answer.

48:16

Stephanie: Well, I think her point about one of the challenges to doing the type of work she helps people with is the sense that our identities are so tied up with our work, especially those like she says high achievers, right people who are really going for it in their work, be they business owners or high executives or lawyers. It is true. If you take away the work, what’s left? Who the heck am I? And I think that takes some intentionality as we always talk about but having someone experienced and walking people through this to help you ask those questions that might be tough and slightly uncomfortable, or certainly not something that comes up on your daily to do list is valuable.

48:58

Kevin: No, absolutely. Part of our process is asking people as they’re preparing to retire, what do you want to do? What are you going to do? And a lot of times the answer is five, six words, and then you go, but then what? Or what about that? And quickly, people realize, maybe I haven’t thought this through as much as I thought I have. It can be scary.

49:25

Stephanie: And that’s okay, if you haven’t, but I think that the reason we wanted to get Judith on the show was to help people, how do I do that? thinking, how do I approach that exploratory phase? whether it’s voluntary or involuntarily. Ending the main career or job, what’s next? And I think this happens for stay-at-home moms as well, when the kids fly off and your identity was caring for them. And now they don’t need you as much. What the heck does that mean for you? So, I think all of us go through this kind of identity crisis at some point. 

50:04

Kevin: What did she say that really stuck with you?

50:06

Stephanie: I like the idea of exploring the psychic payoff that you get from work. Why is it important to you? What would you miss when it’s no longer a daily part of your life? I think that takes a little bit of exploration and deep thinking, because it might not be what you think, on the surface.

50:33

Kevin: It’s rarely ever what you think it is, on the surface, you ask one or two more questions, and all of a sudden, the conversation goes a whole different path. And it’s exciting.

50:46

Stephanie: It is. And it’s similar to people who might come into us and say, ‘Oh, I really want to buy a beach house.’ I’m sure I’ve used this example before, but why? What is it about the beach house? ‘I really want to spend some calming time by a body of water. And I want to create great memories with my grandkids.’ That’s very different, right? A beach house is one way to get there. It’s not the only way to get there. So, let’s maybe back up a little bit and talk about the assumption you’ve made that the beach house is the only way to get those things. Not that we’re going to tell you that that’s the wrong path. 

51:22

Kevin: Unless it really would blow up the plan. To reinforce that point, it’s not so much the beach house, per se, necessarily. Just talking about it, you may realize, ‘Oh, here’s this other idea that I would actually like better.’ I don’t know, just making something up. ‘I’d prefer a lake house because there’s less traffic into the lake than there is going into the shore. And it’ll be easier for the kids to come out,’ and whatever. But the point is, don’t automatically assume this one thing is really what you want. Taking the time to think it through have conversations. You may understand what you really what you’re really hoping to get out of it.

52:05

Stephanie: What are the deeper needs you’re looking to satisfy? All right, well, we’re so glad we could have Judith on. Thanks for being with us. We’ll talk to you next time. It’s goodbye from me.

52:15

Kevin: And it’s goodbye from her.

52:19

Stephanie: Be sure to subscribe to the show and please share it with your friends. Show notes and more information available at takebackretirement.com. Huge thanks for the original music by the one and only, Raymond Loewy through New Math in New York. See you next time.

52:33

Disclaimer: Investment advice offered through private advisor group, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Private advisor group, American Financial Management Group, and Sofia Financial are separate entities. The opinions voiced in this material, are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice, or recommendations for any individual security. To determine which investments may be appropriate for you, consult your financial advisor, prior to investing. This information is not intended to be substitute for individualized tax advice. Please consult your tax advisor regarding your specific situation.